Psychology of Planning & Action

[Daft-Bear]

Kind of an offbeat topic, but there is an interesting phenomenon that occurs when one talks about future plans/intentions.
Talking about doing something in the future gives oneself a dopaminergic sense of completion. It makes action towards the goals less likely as you've already received the social reward from simply announcing intent. We've observed this since about the 30's.
Now this forum does an interesting thing, at least for me. When i read from this site, i feel a sense of comfort in knowing that i am not alone In my thinking. talking about methodology, people's stories, and struggles puts me at ease. i have control over my life again because i can choose to die if nothing else.
It's a strange feeling to recognize that even if I can't control everything in my life or how people treat me or react to me, i can control my fate.

That gives me a degree of peace that I haven't generally had since suicide is such a taboo topic.

Do you think that more harm is done by having a social stigma around the discussion of suicide? The barrier makes it really hard to find help because you know its not socially acceptable to talk about it, and doing so may result in a lack of control over yourself which ironically makes everything that much worse.

It's fairly late, but i hope what I'm saying makes sense.

 

[Jolene79]

I honestly think talking openly about it would not in any way increase the incidence. When you are so desperate and everyone shuts you down because they can't handle it or its too taboo to even bring it up - then most of us feel even greater despair and could just do a last minute panic suicide attempt out of pure desperation! I absolutely talk openly about it to a few people around me. Luckily, most completely understand and don't ever shut me down.

 

[Daft-Bear]

I honestly think talking openly about it would not in any way increase the incidence. When you are so desperate and everyone shuts you down because they can't handle it or its too taboo to even bring it up - then most of us feel even greater despair and could just do a last minute panic suicide attempt out of pure desperation! I absolutely talk openly about it to a few people around me. Luckily, most completely understand and don't ever shut me down.

I can't even imagine talking openly about that and not having serious repercussions. I still can't tell if my ideation is "healthy" or profoundly abnormal. 2 days ago i felt an extreme urge to CTB, and i sat with that. I kind of lurked on this site for a while, read some ctb final threads and became profoundly sad and empathetic towards the struggles I'm seeing here. I wish there was a way for me to help people here.
I am curious what the leading cause of suicidal ideation is on this forum. I don't know if someone has been keeping track of that data.

 

[The anhedonic one]

I have often wondered if there was no social stigma around suicide, then would the suicide rate be lower than it is now ?
Personally I am sure the rate would be lower because having your feelings of suffering invalidated can obviously make some people even more suicidal.

Yet some people like myself are so broken now that no amount of discussion about it could possibly change my mind about ctb.

 

[Daft-Bear]

I have often wondered if there was no social stigma around suicide, then would the suicide rate be lower than it is now ?
Personally I am sure the rate would be lower because having your feelings of suffering invalidated can obviously make some people even more suicidal.

Yet some people like myself are so broken now that no amount of discussion about it could possibly change my mind about ctb.

I don't want to pry if you don't want to participate, but what brought about the resoluteness of Ctb for you?

I'm also curious about the statement that says you're too broken. What broke you? (if you don't mind me asking)

I'm asking this full well knowing that I am a slave to my emotions and they are what dictate how I see things logically. Due to my mood swings, my perception of reality is largely informed by my internal feelings which can become extremely exhausting. Ctb sounds like a good idea and/or bad idea depending on the day.

 

[leavingsoon99]

I have often wondered if there was no social stigma around suicide, then would the suicide rate be lower than it is now ?
Personally I am sure the rate would be lower because having your feelings of suffering invalidated can obviously make some people even more suicidal.

Yet some people like myself are so broken now that no amount of discussion about it could possibly change my mind about ctb.

I think it would be. As I read on here, I think most of the people who post just want to be genuinely heard and not judged. Taking the stigma off of suicide would definitely lower the rate, because suicide is a buzz word. It's associated with what humans have dubbed as "the worst thing that could ever happen." The expectation is that announcing suicidal intent will garner some type of sympathy from the listening party. That's the case SOME-times. Again, if there were no stigma on it (particularly from a religious perspective), then people would be more prone to sticking around. There also has to be genuine care and concern for the person saying that they're suicidal.

That said, I think two things need to happen. Firstly, people who are simply depressed and feel drained should probably stop using suicide as a buzz word to get attention from someone. For me, it's kind of an insult to people who really are going to do it or have done it. It's scaring the listening party into showing concern. I don't think that should be done if you're just trying to get attention. Secondly, in order for "talking to someone" to work, that someone has to genuinely care. This society has become so self-absorbed that people really have lost the ability to just sit and listen to someone else. People are so quick to "fix" someone who comes to them with personal matters that they often push the person away or drive them to use the buzz word like suicide. Then, society overreacts to a person using suicide as a way to get attention by stigmatizing them and further worsening the problem. Listening and empathy need to be re-integrated back into the societal culture.

Both being more selective with words and listening to people would most definitely make people feel better about talking to others about their problems. Suicide has always existed and always will. This world just isn't for some people, and there's no "winning" in such a life for many. But I do agree that if the stigma were taken off of suicide, the rate probably would go down a little.

 

[Jolene79]

I can't even imagine talking openly about that and not having serious repercussions. I still can't tell if my ideation is "healthy" or profoundly abnormal. 2 days ago i felt an extreme urge to CTB, and i sat with that. I kind of lurked on this site for a while, read some ctb final threads and became profoundly sad and empathetic towards the struggles I'm seeing here. I wish there was a way for me to help people here.
I am curious what the leading cause of suicidal ideation is on this forum. I don't know if someone has been keeping track of that data.

I see exactly what you're saying. I have some very obvious reasons that most people understand, sympathise with and some even think yeah I'd feel the same in your position
But for your case where there's no obvious outward reason others could understand, I imagine many would be horrified.

It's not fair of me to diagnose you but I really believe most people have a strong inner will to survive and if you're feeling like you do, there's more to it. I could imagine some people are really depressed and maybe don't even realise it. Or is something happening at a physical level affecting your cognition. I'm on groups for vitamin deficiencies and alot of people feel they're losing it.
So in your case, I'd say no it isn't ' normal '. But you're not wrong and your feelings need to be heard and explored and not shut down

I have often wondered if there was no social stigma around suicide, then would the suicide rate be lower than it is now ?
Personally I am sure the rate would be lower because having your feelings of suffering invalidated can obviously make some people even more suicidal.

Yet some people like myself are so broken now that no amount of discussion about it could possibly change my mind about ctb.

Yes you've explained it much better than me. Having your feelings invalidated is not going to help anyone

 

[The anhedonic one]

I don't want to pry if you don't want to participate, but what brought about the resoluteness of Ctb for you?

I'm also curious about the statement that says you're too broken. What broke you? (if you don't mind me asking)

I'm asking this full well knowing that I am a slave to my emotions and they are what dictate how I see things logically. Due to my mood swings, my perception of reality is largely informed by my internal feelings which can become extremely exhausting. Ctb sounds like a good idea and/or bad idea depending on the day.

I'm 59 years old, born to a malignant narcissist Mother who mentally and physically abused me. Later sexually abused by paedophile Stepfather as Mother watched and masturbated as I was raped.
Began suffering from clinical depression age 6. Bullied all through school. Diagnosed bipolar 1 at age 16.
The love of my life ran away with my life savings and the guy nextdoor.
I'm homeless now and experiencing a major existential crisis.
I've missed a lot of other stuff out here because there is just so much of it.
I've always been broken ( I think that's quite obvious considering what I have been through ).
But the problem is that I have always been a fighter, yet the fight has gradually left me over the years until I have reached the point of feeling completely and utterly dead inside.
I have already died, yet my body still lives.

 

[FuneralCry]

Of course the fact that suicide is so stigmatised only leads to more harm, it's absurd for suicide to be so stigmatised as none of us are obligated to continue existing here and we are all just destined to die anyway, death is the most normal thing, to me it's perfectly logical for someone to want to leave on their own terms.

And for many the only comfort and relief lies in death, suicide should never be stigmatised at all, instead there should just be acceptance towards the right to die where people can finally leave in peace. Legalising assisted suicide would prevent so much unnecessary suffering, the common attitudes about suicide supposedly being "wrong" disgust me especially I could never wish to exist in this hellish world where there is unlimited potential to suffer.

 

[Daft-Bear]

I see exactly what you're saying. I have some very obvious reasons that most people understand, sympathise with and some even think yeah I'd feel the same in your position
But for your case where there's no obvious outward reason others could understand, I imagine many would be horrified.

It's not fair of me to diagnose you but I really believe most people have a strong inner will to survive and if you're feeling like you do, there's more to it. I could imagine some people are really depressed and maybe don't even realise it. Or is something happening at a physical level affecting your cognition. I'm on groups for vitamin deficiencies and alot of people feel they're losing it.
So in your case, I'd say no it isn't ' normal '. But you're not wrong and your feelings need to be heard and explored and not shut down

Yes you've explained it much better than me. Having your feelings invalidated is not going to help anyone

If you suspect something about me that I don't, I'd love to hear it. I feel a constant inner dread that subsides temporarily and re-emerges, usually triggered by how others treat me. I also have some degree of paranoia regarding people that causes me to assume ill intent. I've been through a lot of therapists that don't seem to diagnose me with anything other than depression/anxiety, but that's not helpful if the feeling is pervasive and there's no solution to these ebbs and flows.

It could be bipolar, could be borderline, I'm not sure. I make fairly good money, am functioning well (hold down a job and have some good friends), and am somewhat physically attractive. This actually leads to more misery as I feel like I've done what I can to fix my problems but it's still there. It's like a programming defect.

I am vitamin D deficient and idk how much that could factor in. I'm pretty critical of capitalism, an atheist, have mild gender dysphoria, and am outwardly getting by. I've been burned by multiple terrible relationships in the past that involved cheating and as a result have become rather distrustful of women, but I recognize that it's an irrational belief formed from some specifically horrible interactions and I still hold out hope that this was unusual… but I've internalized it as me being unlovable for some reason I can't see, and it's hard not to indulge the idea that there is something different about me that's causing this dysfunction. But maybe it's normal and others just don't talk about it. Idk.

 

[Daft-Bear]

I'm 59 years old, born to a malignant narcissist Mother who mentally and physically abused me. Later sexually abused by paedophile Stepfather as Mother watched and masturbated as I was raped.
Began suffering from clinical depression age 6. Bullied all through school. Diagnosed bipolar 1 at age 16.
The love of my life ran away with my life savings and the guy nextdoor.
I'm homeless now and experiencing a major existential crisis.
I've missed a lot of other stuff out here because there is just so much of it.
I've always been broken ( I think that's quite obvious considering what I have been through ).
But the problem is that I have always been a fighter, yet the fight has gradually left me over the years until I have reached the point of feeling completely and utterly dead inside.
I have already died, yet my body still lives.

It breaks my heart just to hear what you've been through. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. It sounds like you are having a normal response to the terrible stuff that is happening around you. I hope that you can find peace. Do you live in the states?

Being a fighter is a blessing and a curse, but it sounds like you've really fought through the bad hand you were dealt. I can't imagine what you've been through. If you ever need to vent or chat I'm here to listen.

 

[Ernest1964]

There was a time, in my life time, I'm only 58 years old, where speaking about... rape, sexual abuse (male or female), homosexuality, alcoholism and drug addiction etc. were taboo subjects. I don't know how or why, but we started talking about those things. I'd like to be able to say that people like Phil Donahue (I know many on this site will have no idea who he was) or Oprah Winfrey helped bring these topics into our living rooms and allowed us to begin the dialogue... Am I off here? Suicide has still not been brought into our living rooms in a way where we can discuss the issue openly... yet.

 

[The anhedonic one]

It breaks my heart just to hear what you've been through. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. It sounds like you are having a normal response to the terrible stuff that is happening around you. I hope that you can find peace. Do you live in the states?

Being a fighter is a blessing and a curse, but it sounds like you've really fought through the bad hand you were dealt. I can't imagine what you've been through. If you ever need to vent or chat I'm here to listen.

I live in UK. Thank you.

 

[Daft-Bear]

There was a time, in my life time, I'm only 58 years old, where speaking about... rape, sexual abuse (male or female), homosexuality, alcoholism and drug addiction etc. were taboo subjects. I don't know how or why, but we started talking about those things. I'd like to be able to say that people like Phil Donahue (I know many on this site will have no idea who he was) or Oprah Winfrey helped bring these topics into our living rooms and allowed us to begin the dialogue... Am I off here? Suicide has still not been brought into our living rooms in a way where we can discuss the issue openly... yet.

I totally understand what you're saying, but I am somewhat conflicted. When I was in a high school I remember a guy in my class ctb, it was a strange time in my life but I remember there were two copy cat suicides in that month. It became somewhat of a concern for the small town I lived in, as there was genuine fear that more might follow. I wish I knew what those 2 follow up kids were thinking to better address the topic at hand. That being said, I feel intuitively the if suicide weren't stigmatized, these people would have exhausted other options before they ctb, but the "copy cat suicides" sort of raise some ethical concerns regarding receptibility of teenagers in particular.

But the truth is idk. Are teenagers developed enough to truly understand the consequences of their actions? if not, how do we have a conversation since they, and my age group, are the most likely to ctb.

It's an absurdly complicated topic, but I hope to explore it

 

[MrDarkness]

Talking about accepting suicide should be normal, it's death, why does a person that dies via a heart attack is looked over, but as soon as someone kills themselves everyone cares. It makes no fucking sense

 

[Jolene79]

If you suspect something about me that I don't, I'd love to hear it. I feel a constant inner dread that subsides temporarily and re-emerges, usually triggered by how others treat me. I also have some degree of paranoia regarding people that causes me to assume ill intent. I've been through a lot of therapists that don't seem to diagnose me with anything other than depression/anxiety, but that's not helpful if the feeling is pervasive and there's no solution to these ebbs and flows.

It could be bipolar, could be borderline, I'm not sure. I make fairly good money, am functioning well (hold down a job and have some good friends), and am somewhat physically attractive. This actually leads to more misery as I feel like I've done what I can to fix my problems but it's still there. It's like a programming defect.

I am vitamin D deficient and idk how much that could factor in. I'm pretty critical of capitalism, an atheist, have mild gender dysphoria, and am outwardly getting by. I've been burned by multiple terrible relationships in the past that involved cheating and as a result have become rather distrustful of women, but I recognize that it's an irrational belief formed from some specifically horrible interactions and I still hold out hope that this was unusual… but I've internalized it as me being unlovable for some reason I can't see, and it's hard not to indulge the idea that there is something different about me that's causing this dysfunction. But maybe it's normal and others just don't talk about it. Idk.

Hey daft bear, ah I really couldn't say as I don't know your full story. What I mean is that there is usually something going on that causes one to feel like you do. It's not the natural state if you know what I mean. This is why I do really advocate therapy - but, it has to be a decent competent person who is fully aware and not like so many idiots that seem to be practicing. When you're older you have more autonomy to find someone you click with and then through them, explore everything.
I appreciate this may be annoying as I've mentioned it on other people's posts, but I get a strong sense alot of people here are Neurodivergent, many undiagnosed,and suffering alot because they aren't fully aware of it, their parents aren't either and they're desperately trying to function in a Neurotypical world. I imagine alot of young people are told they have all sorts of mental defects they don't have; they're instead Autistic. ( Appreciate you can be both autistic and affected by mh conditions)

The online groups I'm on where people have loads of struggles physically and often mentally because of nutrition issues are related to vitamin D, b vitamin deficiency and iron deficiency. It may all be an absolute crock of shit for some who have too many struggles to deal with, I get that

 

[Daft-Bear]

Talking about accepting suicide should be normal, it's death, why does a person that dies via a heart attack is looked over, but as soon as someone kills themselves everyone cares. It makes no fucking sense

Philosophically, yes. Death is normal and should be talked about openly whether it be a heart attack or suicide. That being said, we aren't the most logical of animals. Our evolution tends to favor social validation and group cohesion. While the person that CTB is no longer in pain, they do undoubtably cause those who loved them to bereave them which can inflict more pain than the person realized. I've known two people who died of a "broken heart" shortly after their partner's passing.

We are emotional animals. we don't want the ones we love to die. It's a bit selfish and we perhaps misguidedly protect them from the topic. Granted they will die, but that's incredibly hard to cope with as we often pivot our lives around the ones we love. We also typically have a preference for life as opposed to death, it's in our genes. This forum is a bit unusual, as every one here understands intellectually or emotionally the want to not exist. The people here sort of fell through the cracks, something didn't go right and it was never corrected, or they weren't properly shielded. Time and isolation can wither away the spirit until the brain stops properly regulating dopamine and serotonin. But one thing I notice from the good-bye threads, is there is some relief to be found in the community here. We all care about the people here and genuinely want them to find peace. Many of us are alone and perhaps have forgotten that there is some comfort to be had with others.