Threads

Threads

Warlock
Jul 13, 2018
721
The psychiatric medication that you are prescribed by your doctors is actually, really, really fucking bad for you. If you take Zyprexa, Haleoperiodal (Or anything in the Haldol family), Risperdone, Benzodiazepines, ADHD medication, or anti-depressants (for a long term of use), you most likely have suffered brain damage.

I wanted to emphasize that a lot of these studies show results after a long term of use 6 months or more. Before discontinuing any psychotropic medication, please consult a medical professional.

Here are some studies.

Long-term antipsychotic treatment and brain volumes
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3476840/

Progressive brain volume changes in schizophrenia are thought to be due principally to the disease. However, recent animal studies indicate that antipsychotics, the mainstay of treatment for schizophrenia patients, may also contribute to brain tissue volume decrement. Because antipsychotics are prescribed for long periods for schizophrenia patients and have increasingly widespread use in other psychiatric disorders, it is imperative to determine their long-term effects on the human brain.

Typical and atypical antipsychotic medications differentially affect two nondeclarative memory tasks in schizophrenic patients: a double dissociation
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0920996402003158

Nondeclarative memory (NDM) has subtypes associated with different brain regions; learning of a probabilistic classification task is impaired by striatal damage and learning of a gambling task is impaired by ventromedial prefrontocortical damage. Typical and atypical antipsychotic medications differentially affect immediate early gene expression in the striatum and frontal cortex in normal rats. This suggested the hypothesis that schizophrenicpatients treated with typical antipsychotics will have impaired probabilistic classification learning (PCL) and that similar patients treated with atypical antipsychotics will have impaired learning of the gambling task. Groups of schizophrenia patients treated with typical or atypical antipsychotics did not differ from each other on the Brief Psychiatric Rating Scale(BPRS), Mini Mental State Exam (MMSE) or a number of indexes of the Wisconsin Card Sorting Task (WCST) but performed worse than normal controls on these instruments. In the first study, patients treated with typicals (n=20) but not atypicals (n=20) or normal controls (n=32) were impaired in probabilistic classification. In the second study, those treated with atypicals (n=18) but not typicals (n=18) or normal controls (n=18) were impaired in the gambling task. Results suggest that typical and atypical antipsychotics differentially affect nondeclarative memory mediated by different brain regions.

Benzodiazepines and risk of Alzheimer's disease
https://www.bmj.com/content/349/bmj.g5312/rr/775731

Yaffe, Boustani and Fairbanks (1) commented on a carefully conducted study that showed that exposure to benzodiazepines doubled the risk of developing Alzheimer's disease. They found it likely that use of benzodiazepines lead to permanent brain damage, which they called neurodegenerative disease. My preference is to call a spade for a spade, which is more easily understood by the patients. It is less clear that we talk about a drug induced harm if we call it a "disease".

Yaffe, Boustani and Fairbanks also say - without any references - that depression and anxiety are considered risk factors for Alzheimer's disease. However, the studies psychiatrists usually refer to when they make such claims do not hold water. A prominent Danish depression researcher recently mentioned in an article, that antidepressant treatment might possibly reduce the doubled risk of dementia in people who have previously had depression (2). He referred to a meta-analysis (3), which is quite typical for the research in this area. It didn't say anything about earlier treatment and there wasn't the least consideration that the increased risk could be caused by the antidepressant drugs the patients had received.

We know that antipsychotics shrink the brain in a dose-dependent manner (4) and benzodiazepines, antidepressants and ADHD drugs also seem to cause permanent brain damage (5). Leading psychiatrists and the drug industry usually say that it is the disease that destroys people's brain, but it is very likely the drugs that do it, which also animal studies have found. This is an important reason why I advocate that we should use psychiatric drugs very little, and mostly in the acute phase, if people are seriously disturbed.


Corruption Impairs Discussion on long term use of psychiatric drugs.
https://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h2953
While debating the important question of whether long term psychiatric drugs cause more harm than good,1 we must remember that results from longer term government funded studies of psychiatric drugs have often been reported in a manner that protects psychiatry's guild interests, rather than being consistent with the dictates of good science.

Have you taken psychiatric medication in the families that I listed? How do you feel that they have affected you? Would you consider taking psychiatric medication to address your problems? Do you have other opinions on this topic? Would you recommend psychiatric drugs to someone else? When you stop using the medication, what has the effects been? How have your withdrawals been?

How does this information make you feel?
 
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Kdawg2018

Kdawg2018

Still here...
Nov 10, 2018
272
I feel like ctb more when I take medication, and makes me feel worse side effects
 
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Severen

Severen

Enlightened
Jun 30, 2018
1,819
I do not disagree but it buys me time to do what I need to do before I CTB.
 
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furax53

Student
Nov 13, 2018
191
I feel like ctb more when I take medication, and makes me feel worse side effects
I'm the same as I feel a desire for ctb with it's meds
 
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M

MsM3talGamer

Voluntary deletion
Nov 28, 2018
1,504
This is an interesting topic for me. I've been taking benzos for years (Xanax) because it's the only thing that can help me calm down enough to sleep. I've been on anti-depressants in the past but can't remember the name. If they do cause damage the ship has long sailed because my health is shot to pieces anyway.
 
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furax53

Student
Nov 13, 2018
191
This is an interesting topic for me. I've been taking benzos for years (Xanax) because it's the only thing that can help me calm down enough to sleep. I've been on anti-depressants in the past but can't remember the name. If they do cause damage the ship has long sailed because my health is shot to pieces anyway.

me it's the same thing I take benzo (prazepam) to sleep
 
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M

Miss clefable

Enlightened
Aug 23, 2018
1,577
SSRI are bad too the withdrawals
 
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Severen

Severen

Enlightened
Jun 30, 2018
1,819
This is an interesting topic for me. I've been taking benzos for years (Xanax) because it's the only thing that can help me calm down enough to sleep. I've been on anti-depressants in the past but can't remember the name. If they do cause damage the ship has long sailed because my health is shot to pieces anyway.

I take Benzos to help me not be in a state of rage, extremely heightened senses and fear.
 
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ReadyasEver

ReadyasEver

Elementalist
Dec 6, 2018
828
Threads this the reason I gave the psychiatrist the finger. The body is slowly failing, now you want to fuck with my brain, the only thing that will be working fairly well in the next year. I looked at him and thought he's the psychotic one, not me.
 
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LifeSick

LifeSick

Eat the rich or die!
Sep 20, 2018
167
That's a very bold claim and I feel you haven't provided enough studies to back it up.
I do think there are a lot of risks associated with psychiatric medication, but to say that I most likely have brain damage if I took any of those meds feels like fear-mongering to me.
 
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Threads

Threads

Warlock
Jul 13, 2018
721
That's a very bold claim and I feel you haven't provided enough studies to back it up.
I do think there are a lot of risks associated with psychiatric medication, but to say that I most likely have brain damage if I took any of those meds feels like fear-mongering to me.

I will post more studies for you if you would like. What do you feel is a more appropriate title?
 
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LifeSick

LifeSick

Eat the rich or die!
Sep 20, 2018
167
I will post more studies for you if you would like. What do you feel is a more appropriate title?

The title is not too bad, but i got here thinking your idea was to discuss whether or not they are bad for you.
But it seems you are just saying they are bad and wants to know how we feel now that we found out they are bad.
 
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LifeSick

LifeSick

Eat the rich or die!
Sep 20, 2018
167
You mention antidepressants, but I don't see any mention of those on your sources. they manly focus on anti-psychotics, or I am missing something?
Also, there's no proof that benzos increase risk of AD, there's only a correlation between them. This could also be because people who suffer from insomnia and anxiety have a higher risk of developing AD and are also more likely to be prescribed benzos. But it's funny i'm trying to defend benzo usage since I think they are the most dangerous of all these meds.
 
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M

MsM3talGamer

Voluntary deletion
Nov 28, 2018
1,504
I take Benzos to help me not be in a state of rage, extremely heightened senses and fear.
The Xanax prevents me from feeling anxious and nervous as well as helping with my insomnia. I ran out of Xanax once and I got all jittery with mini-panic attacks. It was probably the beginnings of withdrawal symptoms.
 
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Threads

Threads

Warlock
Jul 13, 2018
721
The title is not too bad, but i got here thinking your idea was to discuss whether or not they are bad for you.
But it seems you are just saying they are bad and wants to know how we feel now that we found out they are bad.

If you have studies to refute what I posted, I welcome them. I am trying to foster a discussion about how users feel about this, if they have used medication such as what I listed in the past, if they would recommend these medications, and their experiences with them. If people can refute these studies, I would welcome it.

I did edit the OP a bit.

Also

Psychiatric drug-induced Chronic Brain Impairment (CBI): implications for long-term treatment with psychiatric medication.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22156084

Differential Long-Term Effects of Haloperidol and Risperidone on the Acquisition and Performance of Tasks of Spatial Working and Short-Term Memory and Sustained Attention in Rats
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3836316/

Haloperidol clearly is neurotoxic. Should it be banned?
https://www.mdedge.com/psychiatry/a...otic-disorders/haloperidol-clearly-neurotoxic

Cognitive effects of long-term benzodiazepine use: a meta-analysis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14731058

The Effects of Benzodiazepines on Cognition
https://www.psychiatrist.com/PCC/article/Pages/2005/v07s01/v66s0202.aspx

Persistence of cognitive effects after withdrawal from long-term benzodiazepine use: a meta-analysis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15033227

The last three should help address your benzo questions.
 
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F

furax53

Student
Nov 13, 2018
191
it seems that the weaning of benzo is hard but feasible
 
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LifeSick

LifeSick

Eat the rich or die!
Sep 20, 2018
167
If you have studies to refute what I posted, I welcome them. I am trying to foster a discussion about how users feel about this, if they have used medication such as what I listed in the past, if they would recommend these medications, and their experiences with them. If people can refute these studies, I would welcome it.

I did edit the OP a bit.

Also

Psychiatric drug-induced Chronic Brain Impairment (CBI): implications for long-term treatment with psychiatric medication.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22156084

Differential Long-Term Effects of Haloperidol and Risperidone on the Acquisition and Performance of Tasks of Spatial Working and Short-Term Memory and Sustained Attention in Rats
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3836316/

Haloperidol clearly is neurotoxic. Should it be banned?
https://www.mdedge.com/psychiatry/a...otic-disorders/haloperidol-clearly-neurotoxic

Cognitive effects of long-term benzodiazepine use: a meta-analysis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14731058

The Effects of Benzodiazepines on Cognition
https://www.psychiatrist.com/PCC/article/Pages/2005/v07s01/v66s0202.aspx

Persistence of cognitive effects after withdrawal from long-term benzodiazepine use: a meta-analysis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15033227

The last three should help address your benzo questions.

Thanks. I'm aware of the cognitive impact benzos can cause if used long term, but AFAIK they should not be prescribed long term these days. Of course some ignorant doctor still do unfortunately. But I was talking specifically about AD and these studies don't seem to mention AD.
Also, your initial claim was that benzos most likely will cause brain damage, whether used for short or long term, but these studies talk only about long term use.
 
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Severen

Severen

Enlightened
Jun 30, 2018
1,819
Life causes brain damage.
 
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Threads

Threads

Warlock
Jul 13, 2018
721
Thanks. I'm aware of the cognitive impact benzos can cause if used long term, but AFAIK they should not be prescribed long term these days. Of course some ignorant doctor still do unfortunately. But I was talking specifically about AD and these studies don't seem to mention AD.
Also, your initial claim was that benzos most likely will cause brain damage, whether used for short or long term, but these studies talk only about long term use.

If you take Zyprexa, Haleoperiodal (Or anything in the Haldol family), Risperdone, Benzodiazepines, ADHD medication, or anti-depressants (for a moderate length of time, several months), you most likely have suffered brain damage.

That was in the OP.

'We know that antipsychotics shrink the brain in a dose-dependent manner (4) and benzodiazepines, antidepressants and ADHD drugs also seem to cause permanent brain damage (5).' - Third Study.
 
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Johnnythefox

Johnnythefox

Que sera sera
Nov 11, 2018
3,129
I would be inclined to agree that long term use is damaging.
I just read this and it reveals some truths about the effectiveness of anti depressants.

[URL="https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/news-flash-antidepressants-arent-the-solution.9530/"]News Flash: Antidepressants Aren't The Solution[/URL]
 
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Red star

Red star

Experienced
Sep 15, 2018
206
"Permanent" well shit

I haven't been on them regularly for years but I do regret the times that I was.
 
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LifeSick

LifeSick

Eat the rich or die!
Sep 20, 2018
167
If you take Zyprexa, Haleoperiodal (Or anything in the Haldol family), Risperdone, Benzodiazepines, ADHD medication, or anti-depressants (for a moderate length of time, several months), you most likely have suffered brain damage.

That was in the OP.

'We know that antipsychotics shrink the brain in a dose-dependent manner (4) and benzodiazepines, antidepressants and ADHD drugs also seem to cause permanent brain damage (5).' - Third Study.

My bad, I thought you were referring only to antidepressants when you mentioned lenght of time.

This quote you used is referencing other studies, so you should use them as your source.
 
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Skathon

Skathon

"...scarred underneath, and I'm falling..."
Oct 29, 2018
590
The first article contains the most entertaining information:
After 17 to 27 months of treatment, both haloperidol- and olanzapine-treated monkeys had an equivalent and highly significant 8% to 11% decrease in fresh brain weight and volume when compared with the sham group. These decreases affected all major brain regions but were most robust in frontal and parietal lobes.
>"8% to 11% decrease in fresh brain weight and volume"

>"Have you taken psychiatric medication in the families that I listed?"
Unfortunately, yes.
>"How do you feel that they have affected you?"
Partial amnesia, irreversibly unstable coordination (fine motor skills), uncontrollable muscle contractions and other amusing symptoms.
>"Would you consider taking psychiatric medication to address your problems?"
"I would rather kill myself." ©
...though, it may indeed be fatal next time: the condition of my heart is no longer stable.
>"Would you recommend psychiatric drugs to someone else?"
Only to the ones who prescribe them, perhaps.
>"When you stop[ped?] using the medication, what ha[d] the effects been?"
Neuroleptic malignant syndrome and delirium, I presume.
 
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Justanotherconsumer

Justanotherconsumer

Paragon
Jul 9, 2018
974
Not to mention but nearly all anti-psyphotics are known to cause diabetes and parkinsons in long term use. These drugs used to treat these disease are also very expensive often $300 per month for each, for the meds alone.
 
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Misanthrope

Misanthrope

Mage
Oct 23, 2018
557
Medicine has risk factors involved. There are no perfect medications. Each persons physiology is somewhat unique so how a person reacts is equally unique. Which means every time you are putting something new in your body you are making a gamble and rolling the dice. It is the kind of gamble where you cannot know the outcome with any certainty.

It is not a case of good or bad either. More a question of what you place greater value on. Reduction in symptomology in the present, versus potential harm in the future? There is another thing to also consider, the issue of side effects that can offset any wellness gained.

Medications are so varied there is no one size fits all solution in the first place. Much of medicine is aspects of trial and error trying to formulate the best strategy. This can be a horrible experience for a patient as they may feel like some sort of guinea pig having experiments done on them. They wouldn't actually be too wrong. Should you devise a better method though I am sure you would go down in world history.
Medicine just does the best it can with what it has got access to and its current level of understanding. There are plenty of physical illnesses that are still a huge mystery but the symptomology can be reduced or mitigated.

Psychiatric medications fall in even more difficult territory. Because the brain is such a complicated organ with developments in technology only now shedding further light on it. Recently the largest brain study in the world was completed. Creating fascinating insights that the scientific field is busy pouring over. The science on the brain is behind in contrast to say, the liver. So of course treatments for things like psychosis are also going to be behind.

You have to be careful to not take your own bad medication experiences as reflective of a greater whole.

There are plenty of studies that demonstrate the efficacy of some psychiatric medications versus placebo along with improved quality of life outcomes. I am doubtful you will find those people here. There are though definitely issues with pharmaceuticals and behaviours in how they report their findings or mask unfavourable outcomes.

It does not help market-driven forces keep polluting things further with ghostwriters and shitting all over the science and what it actually says. It also does not help that front line psychiatry continues to peddle the chemical imbalance hypothesis as a hard truth. It really isn't. Or reduce people's life experiences down to a lack of something in the brain. Or don't even define what is 'Normal.' So I am not sure how you can arrive at any sort of control group.

But that also does not discredit psychiatric medications either because they operate no different to taking something for a migraine.

If you take something for a migraine you are not actually curing the migraine with what you take, just reducing the symptomatology of it so you can function. Long-term use of migraine medication increases your chances of heart attack or stroke. Again, comes down to what you put a value on. Reduction in symptoms in the present vs possible future stroke? That is for you to decide. Good or bad is irrelevant.

As for the studies you presented. They are very interesting reading.

Looking at the first one here are issues that their own studies acknowledge.

Our results must be interpreted in the context of additional limitations. Identifying an association does not necessarily indicate a causal relationship. Furthermore, observational studies involving long durations such as ours inevitably preclude use of the "gold standard"

Their conclusion also does not finalise with antipsychotics are bad. Quite the opposite.

Antipsychotics are effective medications for reducing some of the target clinical symptoms of schizophrenia: psychotic symptoms. In medicine, we are aware of many instances in which improving target symptoms worsens other symptoms.

What they do seem to show though is yes, there is likely a link between antipsychotics and brain shrinkage that is worth investigating. Good for them, maybe it will be useful in future medications and we can get away from brain shrinkage occurring. But throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not a sensible response.

The second study is also interesting. I actually dug out the full thing. Because the problem with abstracts is they don't give the full story. Good science will acknowledge issues with its own experiments.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/12...214.672705038.1545425902-680759847.1545425902

Although to me this study just feels like testing to see if water is wet. I have been on Olanzapine and it definitely slows down mental processing power. My value judgement is that I would rather accept that, than have maggots across multiple surfaces and have dead clients telling me how much I suck and failed them.

I am not responding to the third link, there is nothing substantive there.

The fourth link is stating the obvious. Corruption by its very nature impairs discussion on anything. There are plenty of issues with the psychiatric industry that is partly due to a larger problem. Profit before people. Want a better world, might be time to bother your representatives for a more ethical variety of capitalism. But since they benefit from the status quo I don't see that happening. Roll on self-cannibalism and unprecedented horror.

The fifth link in full.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/fb80/a441c39007c84913905410d68397dea55ac2.pdf

Entirely agree with its conclusion. It is not saying medication is bad just that there should be more effort to curb over medicating and keeping people on things far too long. With tendency towards caution. Over drugging for convenience, or as a first response to problems is definitely an issue.

The sixth link is saying the same as the second link I have already stated my view there.



Yes, it should be banned. Because it is outdated and proven toxic. The reason it is still knocking about though is because it is old, meaning the patent likely lapsed and it became open season for anyone else to make it. Competition drives down the price of the drug and so makes it cheaper than its modern counterparts. Also, hospitals enter into contracts with drug suppliers that can tie them to that drug for years even when there are significantly better ones. That or it is lazy bureaucracy, probably all of the above. We are back to profit before people again…

As for the last few studies benzodiazepines have warnings about not driving heavy machinery so it is a given it impairs cognitive function. Most of these studies are pretty much highlighting the need for these dangers to be highlighted to the patient.

Lastly, there is a problem with all these studies because there is something else that also causes brain shrinkage. Adding a new variable.

Pollution!

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2018/09/news-air-quality-brain-cognitive-function/

Correlation can be a real pain when it comes to humans because to limit all variables you would have to do very unethical things.

So my final conclusion involves a goat.

Life is a risk, as is medicine. The problem isn't that medication has the potential to cause harm and therefore is bad. Most things have the potential to cause harm. The problem is that people are not informed well enough about that potential in the first place. The problem is that at some point the response to mental health issues has become thoroughly lazy. Leaving people to languish on things because if you are a zombie, your not technically in distress or making a nuisance of yourself; even if your life is slipping you by one year at a time. The problem is that a whole approach to mental health has been lost to a very narrow focus on the quick fix that medications seemingly offer, aggressively pushed by marketing efforts and other dodgy practices. With little regard for the toxic environment, the person may be living in or have come from. It is also a smoke screen to not look at the core toxic force in our lives involving our society and the conditions we have come to accept.

More disturbingly is physicians not ruling out physical issues before they offer a brain chemical altering prescription. That may well have the permanent side effect of long-term shakes. With the advice to come back in two weeks as if this gamble is a trivial one. It is worsened by the fact that quite a few mental health issues may well be undiagnosed physical issues. So not getting a screening further delays discovering that in the first place. Time can be crucial if a tumour is pressing on your brain…

If you do go down the route of talking to a physician of some sort and their first response to your depression is to write a prescription, you should say. "Shouldn't you rule out physical issues first?" Then look at them long and hard as if they are about to molest a goat that is wearing a top hat and monocle.

In that way, you are doing your small bit to improve the world. For the next person that comes through the door.

( Sorry couldn't be arsed to edit.)
 
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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,849
I don't take any of these medications and never have. I don't intend on taking them either. Given that these medicines are a big gamble on whether they work or not, or have nasty side effects, I'd steer clear of them myself. Plus, over my 28 years of life, I've already concluded that most of my problems can't be solved by medication as they are circumstantial and things that are just out of my control. Furthermore, therapy has just been a time waste and potentially dangerous endeavor (say the wrong thing, risk getting locked up against your will).

I agree with @Threads about the harm these medications can do to others. I suppose that there are many people out there in the world that take them because they:

A) Would be ok with gambling/taking a chance on whether it can improve their situation or not.

B) Would be ok with gambling/taking a chance and if it doesn't work out, they are ok with the consequences.

C) They did a cost benefit analysis and decided that they'd rather cure their symptoms at the cost of other (potential) side effects.

D) They are clueless and haven't really considered all the consequences (sadly, there are a lot of people that don't look at all the consequences of taking a particular drug or just damn the consequences to hell).
 
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Xerxes

Xerxes

Invisible
Nov 8, 2018
936
I was born brain-damaged. Medicines exacerbated it.
 
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Final Escape

I’ve been here too long
Jul 8, 2018
4,348
it seems that the weaning of benzo is hard but feasible
I weaned off clonazepam but it took one refill to do it. I had to keep stretching the time between doses and lessen the amount over weeks. I've heard of people who took a long time to come off benzos. The withdrawal is really bad if u abruptly stop and you used it for a long time.
 
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Final Escape

I’ve been here too long
Jul 8, 2018
4,348
I wouldn't be surprised if I have permanent brain damage from Adderall because I've been on it so long. Basically the recovery from longterm adderall can take more than a year. Even than you may lose your ability to feel happy because you fried your dopamine receptors. Withdrawal from adderall can be kind of dangerous even at a low dose because you get very depressed and lethargic for the first few days especially. You can feel really suicidal in the first few days or more and especially if u stop cold turkey from consistent high doses daily.
 
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furax53

Student
Nov 13, 2018
191
I weaned off clonazepam but it took one refill to do it. I had to keep stretching the time between doses and lessen the amount over weeks. I've heard of people who took a long time to come off benzos. The withdrawal is really bad if u abruptly stop and you used it for a long time.

yes it is not necessary to stop all of a sudden the benzo and it's like a drug is meds and I will start weaning in January because I'm sick of having it in the body I feel that will be long and boring weaning lol
 
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