Prolifers reward creating and visiting communities like SS

[Meretlein]

I have been thinking about how to word something like this for awhile.

Many people including myself came to SS to talk without fear of involuntary commitment. Our society punishes people for admitting suicidal thoughts. Something I learned firsthand at 17. It actually is what lead me to this site as I had no suicide plans beforehand. I used to lurk at r/legaladvice and horror stories similar to mine were posted all the time. They kidnap you (that's really what it is phenomenologically) and then charge you for the "help". This was a traumatizing experience to me and pretty much everyone else I talked to. A close friend of mine says the memory of her "hospitalization" brings her chills. For me it makes me want to smash something, remembering how powerless I was.

Most of us were told that we deserved this trauma, we don't receive any sympathy for other people. The only place people didn't blame us was on SS. The only place you can talk about how you feel without the threat of being locked up is here. If prolifers didn't want us to make our own community, they shouldn't have created the motivation to do so. There are books that give suicide instructions, other websites even. The reason SS is the most visible is that we're a community. A community that supports each other without any threats. There is no walking on eggshells here.

People will always try to avoid violence being enacted upon them.

details

health.ucdavis.edu

 

[Broken Chimera]

I don't understand pro lifers. They want things to stay the same or they don't want to do anything to change it but they want suicidal people to be OK with how things are. That's why I'll never understand them. We can't talk to any else about it without being sectioned and they don't want us to have a safe space to talk about it. My main question is unless they lost someone, why do they care so much?

And unless you caused your own trauma, no you didn't deserve it. What kind of idiot would tell someone that?

 

[faust]

Another problem is that they don't believe you. My friend was in psych.ward once, she said that had depression and suicide thoughts. They made everything look the way like she wanted to commit a suicide right now and neglected all the words she said before. Eventually they were giving her so many pills that she could not even go to the toilet on her own.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Great post, @Meretlein. Very eloquent and compelling.

I would like to add that we're also visible because posts are not kept private to site membership. I found SS while researching a method and Google brought up a link to a post. I'd never thought to search for a suicide forum, I didn't imagine support or community existed, or that I'd want it.

Still, I am always troubled by the ultra-visibility. My personal opinion is that a healthy balance could be found if certain posts were visible to the public, such as the stickied threads and method megathreads, which would keep SS locatable. But at the same time we members could relax a bit, knowing that our intimate pain couldn't be freely and easily scrutinized by one and all. Of course folks could sneak in as fake members and take screen shots, etc. My suggestion wouldn't stop the media or the haters. But it would impede some gratuitous voyeurism, especially every time a story was released, and would make the opposition have to work just a little bit harder.

And then my parents would never find the letter I left for them here in case they go looking. I could live, er, die with that. Of course, that could be resolved with an internal forum for public goodbye threads, maintaining anonymity but knowing one's written voice and choice of words would be recognizable to those who go looking.

Just my thoughts. Again, really enjoyed the post and the points brought up. Inpatient can indeed be a nightmare, and I haven't paid a cent for the horrific, intentional abuse that I received, having walked in asking for help. My credit rating was already tanked anyway, but even if I had the funds, it would have been worth the rating hits to not pay for the assaults on my psyche and body.

 

[Marchioness]

I liked/disliked the psych ward I went to. It was great getting therapy 24/7. I disliked being watched in the shower, the night raid I had in my room in the middle of the night cause I had a pencil in my room, Being treated like a zoo animal by a tour of future med students and above all the money/bill that came with the help. I told them it was one of the big reasons I ended up in here and it was rewarded with a 'get over it' One of the patients I was with said I was lucky that I ended up in one of the better psych wards. We're not supposed to but we all switched contact info and were friends for several years after we got out. Time and distance is the only thing that makes keeping in contact fuzzy. I like that I discovered SS and it was from some prolifer article trying to demonize this place.

 

[Broken Chimera]

disliked being watched in the shower, the night raid I had in my room in the middle of the night cause I had a pencil in my room,

They actually do that to people? Smh.

 

[faust]

They actually do that to people? Smh.

Ye, like in prisons. Psych.ward is a prison to some extent. You can't get out before the time comes, they take everything of you if they deem it may cause harm to you and others. It is just a small part of all the play.

 

[Marchioness]

Yeah... I had to rent a tooth brush and chapstick like a library book and bring it back right away. You're watched and documented constantly. There are no doors, the furniture has weird angles so you can't hide anything. The furniture is all super heavy. I could go on...
I was lucky my roommate was just a gal down on her luck like me. They mix different people with different needs in the same ward, there was one guy I was afraid of as he would get really violent and go into other peoples rooms. Mental health facilities need a huge rehaul on how they work.

 

[Lostnotfound]

I find this a thought provoking topic. I am very much pro-choice and I believe that if the decision to CTB is made calmly and rationally by someone who has the capacity to do that then it is no ones business but that person's. I have had this discussion with my psych team and with the police and the ambulance and the hospital and that is basically the way it is in the UK - to the point that they are all aware of my plans to CTB, they know I have medication to CTB, they have known of dates that I have set and I have talked through method with all of them. They have all said they cannot take any action as there is no evidence that I do not have full capacity so unless they catch me in the act they have no power. They can only act to stop me harming myself if they see me do it. Now that in itself does not make sense however what I am discussing is that suicide is legal and therefore personal choice. The question for me comes in when someone is declared not to have the mental capacity to make that choice. If you are admitted to a psych ward that implies you dont have the mental capacity. I have never been admitted, they cant even find grounds to 135/136 me so once we get to being sectioned under any aspect of the mental health act it seems to be a different story. Surely if you are sectioned then its because you need to be? Just a suggestion - as I said no experience to fall back on here so happy to listen to other points of view

 

[Marchioness]

In case any one was interested I actually admitted myself to the ward voluntarily. I was in a session with my therapist at the time and told them don't let me go home alone tonight. She was a good therapist, didn't shove religion down my neck to get better. I miss her.

 

[Lostnotfound]

In case any one was interested I actually admitted myself to the ward voluntarily. I was in a session with my therapist at the time and told them don't let me go home alone tonight. She was a good therapist, didn't shove religion down my neck to get better. I miss her.

I dont understand how its that easy. I had an emergency GP appt who just sent me to a safe haven centre where you see a psych nurse and then they send you on your way. I sat with the psych nurse who asked what pills I had and my intention - I said I didnt think I could keep myself safe and she said I could go to a&e if I wanted to but suggested I just went home to sleep. A&E have kicked me out previously as well - we'll send someone to see you tomorrow. Is it me? Do they just not give a damn about me or what?

 

[Marchioness]

I couldn't say. I did notice a lot of people here from the UK, if you are from there it might be different.

 

[Lostnotfound]

I couldn't say. I did notice a lot of people here from the UK, if you are from there it might be different.

MH services here are useless

 

[Broken Chimera]

Ye, like in prisons. Psych.ward is a prison to some extent. You can't get out before the time comes, they take everything of you if they deem it may cause harm to you and others. It is just a small part of all the play.

I've been there before, but I've never knew they would go that far.

Yeah... I had to rent a tooth brush and chapstick like a library book and bring it back right away. You're watched and documented constantly. There are no doors, the furniture has weird angles so you can't hide anything. The furniture is all super heavy. I could go on...
I was lucky my roommate was just a gal down on her luck like me. They mix different people with different needs in the same ward, there was one guy I was afraid of as he would get really violent and go into other peoples rooms. Mental health facilities need a huge rehaul on how they work.

I went voluntarily too. I knew how to hide things I needed in places they wouldn't look. But we weren't watched while we showered. And we had doors. What kind of hell hole did you volunteer for? Jesus Christ.

 

[Marchioness]

What kind of hell hole did you volunteer for? Jesus Christ.

The better of the two in town. My ex's best friend worked as security at the other MH facility, he's ex military and bored and would admit to enjoying beating up on the incoming patients that needed to be pacified. *shiver*

 

[Broken Chimera]

A security guard that should be a patient. That's messed up.

 

[Marchioness]

I hope a pro-lifer sees this and realizes abuse can happen to people seeking help, something needs to change.

 

[Broken Chimera]

They're not suffering, so why should they care about the "crazies"? Until it's them they won't care.

 

[TAW122]

First off, thank you for sharing your story @Meretlein and I'm sorry to hear that they kidnapped you and treated you very poorly. My anger too, is directed towards the mental health system and the way these professionals treat their patients, especially in the US. The healthcare industry also doesn't help either, especially the way it's set up (though that's a different point from this thread so I won't get into detail on that.).

As for the article you linked, yes, it makes very much sense and it explains very well to why "men" and most males of a certain age don't get "help". This kind of "help" only makes their lives even worse, with more debt (hospital and medical bills, loss of certain civil rights, career opportunities, and a permanent record in their background record/check, etc.). If anything I'm rather disgusted that these pro-lifers (anti-choicers/forced-lifers) still continue to pedal and push their agenda of "preventing (all) suicide" and that suicide is the result of a mental illnesses and thus must be treated. Absolutely disgusting and barbaric system with barbaric, flagrant violations of freedom and civil rights. I only wished that the general populace cared about this as much as they did for other rights (women's rights, gay rights', workers rights', minorities rights', etc.).

I send you some hugs on your way btw.

 

[Marchioness]

I understand. This won't make sense but I was pretty pro-life even though I was suicidal. I went to all the marches, helped raise money for suicide prevention programs, yadda yadda... My intention during that time was to try to do good. Nothing is ever black and white. After getting fed up with the goody goody approach followed by some of these programs and seeing it not helping, I switched gears. It appears people benefit more if you weather the storm with them (like here at SS) then to try to come from some high horse place to help.

 

[Lostnotfound]

I understand. This won't make sense but I was pretty pro-life even though I was suicidal. I went to all the marches, helped raise money for suicide prevention programs, yadda yadda... My intention during that time was to try to do good. Nothing is ever black and white. After getting fed up with the goody goody approach followed by some of these programs and seeing it not helping, I switched gears. It appears people benefit more if you weather the storm with them (like here at SS) then to try to come from some high horse place to help.

Good view point. However I think my views on this subject are probably alien to most. Death is Death regardless of how it happens. Once it has happened you can't change it regardless of the method. We grieve the people not being in our lives anymore not the fact it was suicide, illness, accident etc. Those are just circumstances and as I already said I think those who have mental capacity have the right to choose the same as they have the right to choose medical care, jobs, houses etc

 

[Marchioness]

Good view point. However I think my views on this subject are probably alien to most. Death is Death regardless of how it happens. Once it has happened you can't change it regardless of the method. We grieve the people not being in our lives anymore not the fact it was suicide, illness, accident etc. Those are just circumstances and as I already said I think those who have mental capacity have the right to choose the same as they have the right to choose medical care, jobs, houses etc

I dont disagree. I share similar views.

 

[Lostnotfound]

I dont disagree. I share similar views.

Someone said something the other day which resonated with this. Their mental health didnt affect them taking a course of education, taking out student loans, learning to and driving a car, and ultimately would not stop them getting married and having children - all of which are life changing decisions so if they had the capacity to make those choices why could they not choose to CTB. I think the laws on it are different in different countries though. Its not illegal in the UK but I dont know about elsewhere.

 

[Meretlein]

First off, thank you for sharing your story @Meretlein and I'm sorry to hear that they kidnapped you and treated you very poorly. My anger too, is directed towards the mental health system and the way these professionals treat their patients, especially in the US. The healthcare industry also doesn't help either, especially the way it's set up (though that's a different point from this thread so I won't get into detail on that.).

As for the article you linked, yes, it makes very much sense and it explains very well to why "men" and most males of a certain age don't get "help". This kind of "help" only makes their lives even worse, with more debt (hospital and medical bills, loss of certain civil rights, career opportunities, and a permanent record in their background record/check, etc.). If anything I'm rather disgusted that these pro-lifers (anti-choicers/forced-lifers) still continue to pedal and push their agenda of "preventing (all) suicide" and that suicide is the result of a mental illnesses and thus must be treated. Absolutely disgusting and barbaric system with barbaric, flagrant violations of freedom and civil rights. I only wished that the general populace cared about this as much as they did for other rights (women's rights, gay rights', workers rights', minorities rights', etc.).

I send you some hugs on your way btw.

Thanks for your support. I always liked seeing your posts here.

The reason that people are so okay with this is that they think this is for our own good. It's misguided empathy mixed with our natural repulsion towards death.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience – C.S. Lewis

 

[Deleted member 1465]

@Meretlein - thank you for the post. A lot of what you have said resonates here and I'll have to wait till I'm back on the pc to give it the reply it deserves.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

If prolifers didn't want us to make our own community, they shouldn't have created the motivation to do so

Said it before and I'll say it again: what matters more than the fact that this site exists, is the fact that it needs to. Close it down and another similar forum will open up elsewhere. You don't get rid of a problem by ignoring it, by not listening to it or by kicking it down the road so that someone else has to deal with it.
You solve a problem by being open and honest and confronting the real issues head on.
But that is too hard. So instead what we get is ignorant sound byte replies that do nothing but further alienate the very people they claim to help. And if we argue the case? Oh well they are all mentally ill, how would they know what's right for them? Not accurate or helpful. Dismissive, insulting and divisive.

However (there is always a 'however' with me) ...

Still, I am always troubled by the ultra-visibility. My personal opinion is that a healthy balance could be found if certain posts were visible to the public, such as the stickied threads and method megathreads, which would keep SS locatable. But at the same time we members could relax a bit, knowing that our intimate pain couldn't be freely and easily scrutinized by one and all. Of course folks could sneak in as fake members and take screen shots, etc. My suggestion wouldn't stop the media or the haters. But it would impede some gratuitous voyeurism, especially every time a story was released, and would make the opposition have to work just a little bit harder.

I tend to agree. I realise this may not be a popular view, but I'm not entirely comfortable with everything being so out there. The recent FB related threads and fake memberships were cases in point. I'd be happier if certain elements of the site were harder to access and available only to determined members, no the general public. Anyone can make a membership - saying you have to be over 18 is disingenuous - anyone can say they are 18. You can't stop anyone making a fake account, but you can discourage it by making content harder to access without a certain determination. I'll admit, though, there is never a perfect scenario.

 

[Quarky00]

Providing limited access is a problem as detailing suicidal ideation cannot be separated from detailing a ctb attempt.

This also harms the transparency and openness, and will be used against Sanctioned Suicide. Transparency is one of the best things in the SS 'brand'. You got nothing to hide. And a big weakness for any "recovery" option-- abuse behind closed doors.

It may also motivate more serious and sinister "infiltration". When X builds a stronger wall, Y builds a stronger cannon...

And finally, "euthanasia vetting" is not a good thing.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Providing limited access is a problem as detailing suicidal ideation cannot be separated from detailing a ctb attempt.

This also harms the transparency and openness, can be used against Sanctioned Suicide, and motivate more serious and sinister "infiltration". When X builds a stronger wall, Y builds a stronger cannon.

Yeah, I realise that and I thought you might offer such a response That's why I didn't say I was against things, just that that I wasn't 'entirely comfortable' with them. There's no easy answer that completely works.

Interesting if the 'arms race' scenario is something that would happen. I've seen complaints by anti-choice people that information is too readily available. But if it was made less readily available, and that was then used as evidence of hiding behind closed doors, then you really can't win either way!

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I tend to agree. I realise this may not be a popular view, but I'm not entirely comfortable with everything being so out there. The recent FB related threads and fake memberships were cases in point. I'd be happier if certain elements of the site were harder to access and available only to determined members, no the general public.

I think this would be a good and important subject for a new thread.

I, the other members, and perhaps the site owners and mods, don't have a way of knowing what the popular view on SS is because it hasn't been discussed, at least not recently or in depth. And popularity does not always equal validity. Bandwagons can drive down inadvisable roads, I usually bring my own transportation in case I decide I don't want to follow. :)

The site owners have their reasons for total visibility, but if there is input, they may or may not come to a different conclusion.

Regardless, some members may want an opportunity to speak and be heard about their own positions. I think a respectful discussion and debate would be quite valuable.

And now that the "Ten threads we haven't seen yet" thread is winding down, I could use another intelligent diversion from the very necessary main purpose of this site.

 

[Quarky00]

Yeah, I realise that and I thought you might offer such a response That's why I didn't say I was against things, just that that I wasn't 'entirely comfortable' with them. There's no easy answer that completely works.

Interesting if the 'arms race' scenario is something that would happen. I've seen complaints by anti-choice people that information is too readily available. But if it was made less readily available, and that was then used as evidence of hiding behind closed doors, then you really can't win either way!

Yeah my post wasn't contrarian and I feel like you (some private area) , just QuarkyBot stating the cons ..

I believe an arms race would ensue , so do you if I recall , re that FB post .

And yeah , you're damned if you do it and you're damned if you don't Btw This is how I know person I'm facing is dishonest or unfair.