Pegasos (assisted death) - Has anyone figured out what scenarios they will accept or not?

[Dark Window]

Have sent another email from another account. This time focusing on mainly medical concerns and have advised I cannot get a diagnosis but can provide medical records showing what I've tried.

 

[Coconut blue]

idk whether this is feasible in your country (and ik its unethical advice) but on chinese platforms there are ppl offering medical records from licensed professionals in the US/UK/australia for sale... mostly for chinese students studying in foreign countries who flunk too many classes and need medical excuses to save their asses... anyway if you're rlly determined to go this route you may want to look into it

 

[Dark Window]

idk whether this is feasible in your country (and ik its unethical advice) but on chinese platforms there are ppl offering medical records from licensed professionals in the US/UK/australia for sale... mostly for chinese students studying in foreign countries who flunk too many classes and need medical excuses to save their asses... anyway if you're rlly determined to go this route you may want to look into it

Any links?
Just got another email response back from an email I sent to them from another account.

I went into detail about my symptoms, but advised I've not been able to get a diagnosis.

They sent me an email back basically saying "no diagnosis, no death for you lol".

About to send them an email back challenging this.

 

[martinso67]

Also realise thought that it's not free, you're looking at 10-11k.

I researched that as well. For that money amount and a lot of doctors visits and difficult bureaucracy. It's not worth it for me at least. I did change it to planing a "life time" trip to south America. For me, it would be A cheaper and less of a headache of CTB method.
I thought it was to good to be true, but I saw pro life news articles where they were mentioning that and complaining on how easy they got it.

 

[Dark Window]

W

I researched that as well. For that money amount and a lot of doctors visits and difficult bureaucracy. It's not worth it for me at least. I did change it to planing a "life time" trip to south America. For me, it would be A cheaper and less of a headache of CTB method.
I thought it was to good to be true, but I saw pro life news articles where they were mentioning that and complaining on how easy they got it.

Why go to south america

 

[Dark Window]

Got another response on one of my accounts.

This time they were firm, essentially telling me that they cannot accept anyone without a diagnosed medical condition. There's no exceptions to this.

I am considering seeing if they'll make an exception for psychosomatic illnesses that are incurable
Without a diagnosed medical condition, we would not be able to assist you at Pegasos.

As an assisted dying association we have to work within the requirements of the Swiss system, we aren't able to obtain sodium pentobarbital ourselves, it needs to be prescribed to us on a case by case basis.

Your application would not be approved, so rather than waste your time and money we would strongly recommend that you seek counselling and further treatment options elsewhere.
I hope that this helps to explain the situation.

Please accept our decision, we are sorry but we are unable to help you.
Kind regards and best wishes,

 

[Dark Window]

I have established contact with pegasos on a new account

What strategy should I try this time? Anyone have any requests?

 

[Rubypie41]

Can I ask what is your aim from all of this?

Sending them lots of emails asking about different conditions is a drain on their resource and wasting them time that could be used for those with genuine cases. This is not a game, so what is it that you are specifically wanting to know?

Why don't you just send them one email asking what you want to know instead of creating loads of different email accounts and making things up as you go along.

Not meaning to be rude, but this just seems a bit silly to me. Ask them what you want to know and leave it at that.

 

[the_last_race]

Got another response on one of my accounts.

This time they were firm, essentially telling me that they cannot accept anyone without a diagnosed medical condition. There's no exceptions to this.

I am considering seeing if they'll make an exception for psychosomatic illnesses that are incurable
Without a diagnosed medical condition, we would not be able to assist you at Pegasos.

As an assisted dying association we have to work within the requirements of the Swiss system, we aren't able to obtain sodium pentobarbital ourselves, it needs to be prescribed to us on a case by case basis.

Your application would not be approved, so rather than waste your time and money we would strongly recommend that you seek counselling and further treatment options elsewhere.
I hope that this helps to explain the situation.

Please accept our decision, we are sorry but we are unable to help you.
Kind regards and best wishes,

Browsed their site a bit.. Funny, that google didn't show me them at first, suggesting a Turkish hotel by the same name. What i want to say is that they probably should've put more emphasis on who they expect as their customer. The page makes it seem like they accept everyone and anyone, have some mission etc. but actually only want to assist old and sick people with money... Yeah, they say it in FAQ that they won't accept "young people with depression" but it's like this fine print on the bottom of a contract...

 

[Rubypie41]

Browsed their site a bit.. Funny, that google didn't show me them at first, suggesting a Turkish hotel by the same name. What i want to say is that they probably should've put more emphasis on who they expect as their customer. The page makes it seem like they accept everyone and anyone, have some mission etc. but actually only want to assist old and sick people with money... Yeah, they say it in FAQ that they won't accept "young people with depression" but it's like this fine print on the bottom of a contract...

I think they look at things on a case by case basis, but yes I do agree they could make it a bit more clear on who they will or won't accept. Impossible for them to list every medical condition out there, but maybe something along the lines of we accept anyone with a terminal illness, or anyone with an incurable medical condition that causes pain, suffering or severely impacts their quality of life.

I think that's basically what their criteria is, as outlined below:

1. Must be over the age of 18
2. Diagnosed with a terminal illness, or an incurable illness that causes pain, suffering, distress and severely impacts quality of life
3. We do not accept anyone purely based on mental illness
4. Medical records are required to confirm diagnosis and prognosis of the illness for which the VAD is being assessed on
5. Must have mental capacity to make the decision, not influenced by others or for financial gain of others

 

[helloleaf]

Can I ask what is your aim from all of this?

Sending them lots of emails asking about different conditions is a drain on their resource and wasting them time that could be used for those with genuine cases. This is not a game, so what is it that you are specifically wanting to know?

Why don't you just send them one email asking what you want to know instead of creating loads of different email accounts and making things up as you go along.

Not meaning to be rude, but this just seems a bit silly to me. Ask them what you want to know and leave it at that.

I do agree. I think maybe he's just trying to see what applicants would actually be eligible due to vague criteria. Just curious, were you able to get an ok to proceed with applying via email before actually applying? Or did you just go ahead and apply first?

 

[Rubypie41]

I do agree. I think maybe he's just trying to see what applicants would actually be eligible due to vague criteria. Just curious, were you able to get an ok to proceed with applying via email before actually applying? Or did you just go ahead and apply first?

Yeah, I understand what he's trying to find out, just think there is a more productive way of going about it that doesn't waste his time or the time of employees working at Pegasos. The approach he is taking could go on forever, creating email account after email account with an endless list of scenarios/conditions. What's the point in doing it that way, just ask what you want to know.

I emailed them first before applying and they asked me to email them with details of my situation. They then emailed back saying they can't guarantee I would get approval (as it's a Swiss doctor who has final say), but they did say if they thought at any point that my application was likely to be rejected, that they would have told me that before going ahead with an application.

 

[LostSoul1965]

I don't see the point in this. Their rules and guidelines for acceptance seem quite clear. Sending endless e-mails with made up scenarios that keep getting rejected should be an indication that their guidelines are strict. As they need to be. Even if you lucked out and fabricated a situation they considered now you'd have to prove it with medical records and Dr.'s testimony and consent. Are you doing this for entertainment or are you serious? Just curious? Seems getting N on one's own would be a more likely occurance lol. But hey. To each their own and i wish you luck in finding your peace. However that may happen. Thank you for sharing this journey and as always sharing info. and experiences. It helps us all with our options going forwards.

 

[helloleaf]

Yeah, I understand what he's trying to find out, just think there is a more productive way of going about it that doesn't waste his time or the time of employees working at Pegasos. The approach he is taking could go on forever, creating email account after email account with an endless list of scenarios/conditions. What's the point in doing it that way, just ask what you want to know.

I emailed them first before applying and they asked me to email them with details of my situation. They then emailed back saying they can't guarantee I would get approval (as it's a Swiss doctor who has final say), but they did say if they thought at any point that my application was likely to be rejected, that they would have told me that before going ahead with an application.

I see your point of view. Thanks for getting back to me and responding. Also, were your medical documents super detailed? And what specific diagnosis did you have? If you are not comfortable answering it's okay. Do you know how I can message you on this forum or how to look at people's profile?

 

[Esokabat]

idk whether this is feasible in your country (and ik its unethical advice) but on chinese platforms there are ppl offering medical records from licensed professionals in the US/UK/australia for sale... mostly for chinese students studying in foreign countries who flunk too many classes and need medical excuses to save their asses... anyway if you're rlly determined to go this route you may want to look into it

Can you dm me about this place? Do I need to speak Chinese to navigate these sites?

Got another response on one of my accounts.

This time they were firm, essentially telling me that they cannot accept anyone without a diagnosed medical condition. There's no exceptions to this.

I am considering seeing if they'll make an exception for psychosomatic illnesses that are incurable
Without a diagnosed medical condition, we would not be able to assist you at Pegasos.

As an assisted dying association we have to work within the requirements of the Swiss system, we aren't able to obtain sodium pentobarbital ourselves, it needs to be prescribed to us on a case by case basis.

Your application would not be approved, so rather than waste your time and money we would strongly recommend that you seek counselling and further treatment options elsewhere.
I hope that this helps to explain the situation.

Please accept our decision, we are sorry but we are unable to help you.
Kind regards and best wishes,

This is absolutely not surprising. That idiot guy who didn't tell his parents, not even a scheduled email to his family after his death. What f**ing selfishness. Of course his family raised hell, got media involved, sent journalists to go to Pegasos physically at location, got lawyers involved…. This guy, and the sisters that went to vacation to Dubai and didn't tell anything to their families, not even after their death, to the point of getting the police involved as their families thought they are missing or kidnapped, f**ed it up for everyone now. Things got stricter than ever. I don't think they will ever accept anyone under 50 unless you are terminal and have only 6 months to live. Selfish people f***ing it up for everyone because sending a delayed gmail is that hard… right

I saw a news report recently about a man who couldn't get a diagnosis but his symptoms were real and they accepted him.

And exactly due to what happened with this irresponsible selfish guy and his family, they will never do it again. I think this guy singlehandedly caused that no under 50 will ever get approved again unless terminal or fully handicapped. He managed to ruin it for everyone. Thank you, great job

Can I ask what is your aim from all of this?

Sending them lots of emails asking about different conditions is a drain on their resource and wasting them time that could be used for those with genuine cases. This is not a game, so what is it that you are specifically wanting to know?

Why don't you just send them one email asking what you want to know instead of creating loads of different email accounts and making things up as you go along.

Not meaning to be rude, but this just seems a bit silly to me. Ask them what you want to know and leave it at that.

I must say I agree. No diagnosis, no approval. What else do you need to know? Unless you can ask for a custom diagnosis for Christmas, this is just wasting time at this point.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

What about diagnosed Chiari malformation - neurological disease ?

I have this, and I so highly doubt they would take it seriously based on my own experiences of living with Chiari. Most doctors don't know anything about chiari or downplay it unless you're one of those people at the stage where you can no longer swallow or have severe ataxia. There's barely any knowledge of Chiari out there and still a lot of outdated information circling in the medical community about size correlating with symptoms etc.

 

[J&L383]

I have established contact with pegasos on a new account

What strategy should I try this time? Anyone have any requests?

Please stop with the new accounts and strategies. They are a small association trying to help people. I'm not saying you're not suffering to the extent that others are, but they are constrained by the Swiss laws and protocols. You NEED EVIDENCE, and please do not make anything up. If you are under 50 years old it's very difficult, but if you're a quadriplegic or suffer from severe autoimmune or neurological disorders you will have no problem. Purely psychiatric issues require probably a 20-year history of trying a multiple of potential solutions without result. Unfortunately that's the way it is.

 

[Dark Window]

Can you dm me about this place? Do I need to speak Chinese to navigate these sites?

This is absolutely not surprising. That idiot guy who didn't tell his parents, not even a scheduled email to his family after his death. What f**ing selfishness. Of course his family raised hell, got media involved, sent journalists to go to Pegasos physically at location, got lawyers involved…. This guy, and the sisters that went to vacation to Dubai and didn't tell anything to their families, not even after their death, to the point of getting the police involved as their families thought they are missing or kidnapped, f**ed it up for everyone now. Things got stricter than ever. I don't think they will ever accept anyone under 50 unless you are terminal and have only 6 months to live. Selfish people f***ing it up for everyone because sending a delayed gmail is that hard… right

And exactly due to what happened with this irresponsible selfish guy and his family, they will never do it again. I think this guy singlehandedly caused that no under 50 will ever get approved again unless terminal or fully handicapped. He managed to ruin it for everyone. Thank you, great job

I must say I agree. No diagnosis, no approval. What else do you need to know? Unless you can ask for a custom diagnosis for Christmas, this is just wasting time at this point.

I think it's harsh to call him selfish. At the end of the day the anti-suicide mentality of many people makes people often less likely to want to come forward and speak because all they'll be met with is people judging them, making a fuss over them, or trying to have them committed to a psych ward.

It's really easy for you to say these things when you're not him and you're not suffering with what he was suffering with.

He was 47 and couldn't work and had to live with his mother because his condition was that debilitating.

He didn't ruin anything. The company has decided to make that decision.

Why do you want a stranger to ask you something when you could write them yourself? Also, there is one guy responding emails. You don't think he will find it strange that someone sends them an email about an incredibly rare disease and later when you try to apply, you send them the same incredibly rare disease from a different account? This is not a big call center that DW is talking to. It is literally just one guy responding to all these silly hypothetical questions. What you are asking is silly, childish and immiture. What? You don't have access to email? You cannot write? You have no email address? Why don't you write them the actual truth, rather than asking a stranger on the internet to write for you when they know nothing about your disease and your condition. There is literally one single guy working there that is both running the clinic and answering emails, wasting his time means that people who are in real urgent need might not get timely response. Grow up please. You are an adult, write your own damn email that is based on the truth and not lies

You really need to calm down.

Being antagonistic to everyone you disagree with isn't necessary.

You tell people to grow up but it sounds like you're not particularly aware of your own feelings which is why you're getting offensive to everyone who disagrees with you even though they said nothing negative towards you at all.

 

[J&L383]

I have this, and I so highly doubt they would take it seriously based on my own experiences of living with Chiari. Most doctors don't know anything about chiari or downplay it unless you're one of those people at the stage where you can no longer swallow or have severe ataxia. There's barely any knowledge of Chiari out there and still a lot of outdated information circling in the medical community about size correlating with symptoms etc.

Chiara malformation: "Dr. Google" has a good handle on this. Diagnosed with MRI. Symptoms do seem debilitating, so although I can't speak for P, I would say this condition could qualify. Much easier than mental illness, in my opinion.

I emailed them first before applying and they asked me to email them with details of my situation. They then emailed back saying they can't guarantee I would get approval (as it's a Swiss doctor who has final say), but they did say if they thought at any point that my application was likely to be rejected, that they would have told me that before going ahead with an application.

I did just the same (just a few paragraphs) and got a similar response. (If you don't get this kind of response to an initial inquiry, then it's probably not worth pursuing). It's sort of makes me think they're monitoring application materials but they're so busy I don't know if they actually do that, but perhaps? Of course they can't give you any guarantees up front because they need to see the documentation and make sure it looks valid.

Also realise thought that it's not free, you're looking at 10-11

Holy fuck,man thats some expensive shit right there i mean i could probably afford *just* but how does the procedure even work?

Keep in mind, you'll spend $20,000 or more on "funeral expenses" in the United States.

I wont go into detail here.

Where does it say you need medical records?

In the application process, one of the categories is medical records. I don't know how much the website goes into it without getting to the private login area and I think you need to join to get a login. 100 CHF to join. (Included if you are a member of Exit International - but need to be 50 for that )

I do agree they could make it a bit more clear on who they will or won't accept. Impossible for them to list every medical condition out there.

4. Medical records are required to confirm diagnosis and prognosis of the illness for which the VAD is being assessed on

This will provide some guidance. This was from a report with a link on the Dignitas website. (Too lazy to include the link but easy to find with a little digging). From 2014 so it predates Pegasos but I think the criteria remains similar.

 

[Dark Window]

Is there anywhere else in the world that is more lenient than this?

 

[Dark Window]

Finally got them to accept a scenario -

30 Year old suffering with ME/CFS diagnosed as a result of COVID, been suffering for 4 years.

They would consider it, but now asking for legal documents.

So it's not just old people, but you definitely need a proven diagnosed medical condition with medical records to back it up.

 

[M48 Patton]

You would honestly think nowadays with the climate crisis and population increases they would just allow more people to leave peacefully.

I genuinely think if you feel you want to die so long as you have tried what you can and you are of sound enough mind (in the sense that you can think just enough about your quality of life and how realistic your situation is) then simply put it should be allowed.

Instead we have to source things illegally, carry out dangerous, painful and ethically questionable methods and potentially even botch the methods Just to get the peace we need

 

[Dark Window]

Pegasos got back to me -

There's no specific documents you need, they just need the latest relevant documents undersigned by a professional that confirms diagnosis. They willl then take the docs to their seniors and then they will decide how to proceed.

@bluebirds @reversebandaid

 

[trs]

Got another response on one of my accounts.

This time they were firm, essentially telling me that they cannot accept anyone without a diagnosed medical condition. There's no exceptions to this.

I am considering seeing if they'll make an exception for psychosomatic illnesses that are incurable
Without a diagnosed medical condition, we would not be able to assist you at Pegasos.

As an assisted dying association we have to work within the requirements of the Swiss system, we aren't able to obtain sodium pentobarbital ourselves, it needs to be prescribed to us on a case by case basis.

Your application would not be approved, so rather than waste your time and money we would strongly recommend that you seek counselling and further treatment options elsewhere.
I hope that this helps to explain the situation.

Please accept our decision, we are sorry but we are unable to help you.
Kind regards and best wishes,

There is no such thing as a psychosomatic condition that is incurable. That is ridiculous and upsetting.
These services need to be used by people who truly need them.
I think you need to turn your attention away from this and onto something in the world that is exactly the opposite of this.

Can you dm me about this place? Do I need to speak Chinese to navigate these sites?

This is absolutely not surprising. That idiot guy who didn't tell his parents, not even a scheduled email to his family after his death. What f**ing selfishness. Of course his family raised hell, got media involved, sent journalists to go to Pegasos physically at location, got lawyers involved…. This guy, and the sisters that went to vacation to Dubai and didn't tell anything to their families, not even after their death, to the point of getting the police involved as their families thought they are missing or kidnapped, f**ed it up for everyone now. Things got stricter than ever. I don't think they will ever accept anyone under 50 unless you are terminal and have only 6 months to live. Selfish people f***ing it up for everyone because sending a delayed gmail is that hard… right

And exactly due to what happened with this irresponsible selfish guy and his family, they will never do it again. I think this guy singlehandedly caused that no under 50 will ever get approved again unless terminal or fully handicapped. He managed to ruin it for everyone. Thank you, great job

I must say I agree. No diagnosis, no approval. What else do you need to know? Unless you can ask for a custom diagnosis for Christmas, this is just wasting time at this point.

It's clear that this guy had a family who truly loved him, wanted to help him and wanted to be with him at the end if they had known, so yes there were problems with how this went. If he had a family who didn't care, that would be one thing, but that was not this case.

 

[Dot]

There is no such thing as a psychosomatic condition that is incurable. That is ridiculous and upsetting.

Thre r plnty of cnditns whch psychtrsts clss as 'psycho-somatc' whch ppl r only givn info on hw 2 mange - nt cure

Xamples me/cfs & fbromylgia & cnditns withn tht clss

 

[Jarni]

Thre r plnty of cnditns whch psychtrsts clss as 'psycho-somatc' whch ppl r only givn info on hw 2 mange - nt cure

Xamples me/cfs & fbromylgia & cnditns withn tht clss

me/cfs and fibromyalgia are not psychosomatic at all. Freud made lots of bad and damage with inventing BS psychosomatic things, it doesn't exist.

Fibromyalgia is near always small fiber neuropathy (SFN) or other damage to soft tissues.

Me/cfs is big problems with mytochondria and microclots and other things. Near always the root cause is a persistent infection. SFN is also Very often present in ME/CFS.

Psychosomatic things is a false cult that creates lots of terrible damage to physically ill people. I studied the question very deeply for 5 years.

For example here lots of scientific explanations on the subject (but it is just a very little part, there are research papers on Google scholar) :

Small Fiber Neuropathy (SFN) Fibromyalgia and ME/CFS Resource Page - Health Rising

Small fiber neuropathy refers to the loss and/or degradation of small nerve fibers in the skin and eyes (and perhaps elsewhere) of approximately 40% of people with fibromyalgia and/0r chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) as well. These nerve fibers can transmit sensory and autonomic nervous system...

www.healthrising.org

 

[Dot]

me/cfs and fibromyalgia are not psychosomatic at all. Freud made lots of bad and damage with inventing BS psychosomatic things, it doesn't exist.

Fibromyalgia is near always small fiber neuropathy (SFN) or other damage to soft tissues.

Me/cfs is big problems with mytochondria and microclots and other things. Near always the root cause is a persistent infection. SFN is also Very often present in ME/CFS.

Psychosomatic things is a false cult that creates lots of terrible damage to physically ill people. I studied the question very deeply for 5 years.

For example here lots of scientific explanations on the subject (but it is just a very little part, there are research papers on Google scholar) :

Small Fiber Neuropathy (SFN) Fibromyalgia and ME/CFS Resource Page - Health Rising

Small fiber neuropathy refers to the loss and/or degradation of small nerve fibers in the skin and eyes (and perhaps elsewhere) of approximately 40% of people with fibromyalgia and/0r chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) as well. These nerve fibers can transmit sensory and autonomic nervous system...

www.healthrising.org

Am awre tht thy r nt psychosmatc - am sayng tht = hw mny in medcl indstry r stll treatng thm

Hwevr thre r sme cnditns whch cn b trcd t/ trmas whch cnnt oftn b fixd usng psychlogcl therpis

 

[My_name_is_Luka]

I've mentioned chronic pain, undiagnosed issues doctors struggling to figure out, and a list of other symptoms, not mentioning to them a specific illness.

I also mentioned severe treatment resistant depression, anxiety, OCD.

I stated I was 35 in my email and they said I was still "Young" and that since I had these mental health issues they cannot accept me and gave me a suicide hotline link.

So basically they ask you your age. I'd recommend not making depression or anxiety your main argument.

I wrote to them 4 years ago when I was 39. I mentioned that I have an incurable health condition that causes chronic suffering (but not terminal), which is true.
They replied that they commonly accept cases similar to mine and in order to get a proper assessment, I should have applied and sent the required medical documentation (the diagnosis of my condition).
At that time I also asked my doctor if they would have made a report that I could have sent to this association and they agreed.
I didn't continue with it as my condition seemed to get more tolerable. But now a further complication brought me back.

I don't know if I'd consider this route.. It seems rather complicated and bureaucratic. It seems to me that the amount of preparation that it needs is at the same level of putting together all the equipment for the nitrogen mask, and it still have a risk of rejection (unless you have a terminal condition, this gives 100% certainty)

 

[invalidrev]

I see your point of view. Thanks for getting back to me and responding. Also, were your medical documents super detailed? And what specific diagnosis did you have? If you are not comfortable answering it's okay. Do you know how I can message you on this forum or how to look at people's profile?

@Rubypie41 did you already respond privately to helloleaf's query about how detailed or how many medical records are needed? Would X-rays/MRIs showing the diagnosis (maybe from two different hospitals) suffice? Would you mind sharing that info here, since I also have the same query? Thank you for your help, and hope you are doing well.

 

[Asleepatlast]

idk whether this is feasible in your country (and ik its unethical advice) but on chinese platforms there are ppl offering medical records from licensed professionals in the US/UK/australia for sale... mostly for chinese students studying in foreign countries who flunk too many classes and need medical excuses to save their asses... anyway if you're rlly determined to go this route you may want to look into it

Are you able to share where these platforms are?

Please stop with the new accounts and strategies. They are a small association trying to help people. I'm not saying you're not suffering to the extent that others are, but they are constrained by the Swiss laws and protocols. You NEED EVIDENCE, and please do not make anything up. If you are under 50 years old it's very difficult, but if you're a quadriplegic or suffer from severe autoimmune or neurological disorders you will have no problem. Purely psychiatric issues require probably a 20-year history of trying a multiple of potential solutions without result. Unfortunately that's the way it is.

Do you know if it is autoimmune if they expect you to have tried all the different meds or do you just need the diagnosis?