On courage and cowardice...

[Kali_Yuga13]

In my meanderings on the Internet to neighborhoods of philosophical discussion and metaphysics the topic of suicide comes up here and there. Places where NDEs, afterlife, reincarnation, prison planet and Christianity are discussed are where I tend to land.

Almost always the question of suicide comes down to courage versus cowardice. Suicide is spoken of in hushed tones. In some religions a suicide isn't given a burial on consecrated ground and even the family is sometimes shunned. I've heard it damns you to hell and it's spitting in God's eye for the gift of life.

From those inclined toward Eastern thought I've heard it undo's the totality of all lessons one has learned through numerous incarnation and one has to start from the very beginning. I would have to start as a bug and progressively work my way up the food chain only to once again face life with relative abundance I should be grateful for but with just enough problems to make it a psychic hell. If I can face that kind of life to the end, perhaps I can attain what? Reborn both wealthy AND well adjusted and perhaps even lucky on top of that? And from that lofty perch I can look down upon the billions in misery and poverty and stoically tell them that their suffering is the entry fee to be like me? Just hang in there. eh?

So suicide is seen as a great relinquishment of the duty that's been bestowed upon us in vague contractual terms with no means for renegotiation and no return warranty despite the product being sometimes damaged off-the-shelf. It's the great "no call, no show" to the workhouse of life. "You'd better have a good reason" they'll say.

I'll be honest, the idea of catching the bus only to find myself a disembodied spirt having made a huge mistake scares me. So does the "lake of fire" so does reincarnating a zillion times, so does eternal blackness, and yet so does eternal life and having to remember all my mistakes or having to answer to those that have made less of them. I can't find a truly agreeable scenario but I wouldn't mind a break.

And here we are in this little community where we attempt to solve the dilemma of SI and muster the courage to make our grand and final exit in a world where what we view as courage is considered cowardice. And I have to say that I really don't know. I don't know how one CAN know without the tangible certainty of what happens after death. And yet, having such knowledge would entirely remove the tension between worlds removing both the weight and consequence of the act.

No one really knows this in a way that can be demonstrated to others. Not the most faithful religious person nor the most hard-nosed materialist despite the certainty with which they make their claims. At the end of the day it all ends with "trust me bro". A belief in anything, even nothing, requires faith.

And whose to say the act can be summed up by binary values? Maybe some suicides are cowardly and others courageous. Some are acts of mercy to one's self or caregivers and others are done in revenge. Some are a matter of practicality and others are done in passion. Some are done in foolishness and others with careful deliberation. Some are for political statements or as a sacrifice for a greater good.

I have been stuck in the deliberation stage for too long. I have my means and methods figured out but now it seems that excessively pondering about it is counter productive to just doing it or attempting to recover.

I aspire to acts of courage and dignity in both life and death. Right now I stick around as a matter of dignity. Dignity may in fact be the most important factor in whether or not a person decides to catch the bus. Heck, even the legal euthanasian program in the US is called "Death with Dignity". Or when the Samurai's committed seppuku it was an act to restore their dignity and honor. Whether it be abuse, addiction, poverty, disgrace, regret, homelessness, sickness or disability much of these conditions assail our sense of dignity and also agency. If I can slowly restore both my dignity and agency, perhaps I can recover. So it looks like it's time to start browsing the Recovery section of SaSu.

 

[gothbird]

This is an extraordinarily thoughtful reflection.

You're absolutely right: no one knows. Not the devout priest, not the hardened skeptic, not the theorist. Every explanation of what happens after death, no matter how passionately held, ultimately boils down to belief which is another way of saying "a narrative we choose because it comforts us, confronts us, or fits the shape of our pain." In the absence of certainty, each person builds their meaning around the unknown, and you're right to call out the hypocrisy in how society handles that: assigning blame or cowardice to suicide while refusing to offer terms anyone agreed to, much less a return policy.

If recovery is possible, it won't come through guilt or fear or appeals to cosmic order. It'll come through reclaiming control—the sense that your life is yours again, even if the pain remains. And if you choose to recover, it should be because you want to, not because you were threatened into staying.

Whatever path you end up choosing—recovery, rest, or somewhere in between—I hope it's done with eyes wide open, on your own terms, with no need to explain or justify to a world that offers little in return. And whatever you do next, be it browsing Recovery or preparing to leave, I hope you keep moving in the direction of dignity.

 

[ididnotconsent]

Great post

All of us here have had our sense of dignity, agency, and self worth violated by the world. I wish you much much luck and courage in your attempted recovery or whatever you decide.

And yes, no one really knows what happens after death. Not the priest, imam, pope, Richard Dawkins etc. It's all a guessing game. Also, it won't be eternal blackness, that would be a horror show. It would be eternal nothingness because you have to be conscious to experience blackness.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Very thoughtful post. I believe the concepts of courage and cowardice are linked to worth. Is it courageous to leap into a lion pit to save your smart phone? No- it's dumb. Is it courageous to leap in after a child that fell in- yes. Is it cowardice to back down from a fight you know you can't win or, is it common sense? Again- it depends- on worth. Sometimes, we will stand up and fight- even though there's little chance of success. We need to believe in the cause though or, we need to have enough respect for other people who believe in that cause.

With regards to suicide, I think it's a brave act to do as a stand alone action. It's pretty terrifying. Especially the DIY brutal methods we are sometimes left with. It requires overcoming our own SI plus, all the expectations society places on us. It involves enduring an unknown amount of pain and fear and the result is unknown too. Death or possibly life with injuries. Nothing or afterlife. Facing all those unknowns is frightening. You have to be brave to face up to frightening things.

It can also be seen as being more courageous to keep living but again- I think it hinges on worth. Why are we living? Where is the worth? Are we valuable to others? Maybe. In which case, it makes sense we don't want to hurt them. Still- surely we are the best judges of our own sense of worth. Someone could be a chess prodigy but, grow to hate the game. Be miserable each time they get forced to play it. Should they have to- for the sake of others? Some people simply hate their lives and can't seem to change things enough to feel differently.

Where does courage and cowardice sit in regards to the people potentially being left behind? Isn't it more courageous and loving to let people who are suffering escape their pain? Even though we lose them? Isn't it somewhat cowardly/ selfish to insist that a person suffering remains that way because, we don't want to face our lives without them?

That's the weird double standard about it. People who are struggling so badly in their life that they are suicidal are expected to have the courage to keep going. They need to 'cope' with whatever it is ailing them- illness, awful life circumstances, even bereavement. Yet, those clinging on to them insist they won't be able to cope with their suicide. So- why is it ok for them to insist they can't cope but, not for us?

I suppose because suicide is a deliberate act that can potentially inflict a lot of grief on people. I feel like things would be a lot better if we could talk about it openly though. If people felt able to express why their lives no longer felt worth living, perhaps their options could be discussed earlier. I wonder if there ever could be a shift so that those potentially left behind could see it that they need to be the courageous ones and, let the person go- if they can't be helped.

Ultimately though, it feels like being told what to do and think. You should want to fight for your life. This should be enough for you. You should be happy now. Is it courageous to just accept what we are told? Or, is it more courageous to say: 'You can't decide for me'.

 

[Linda]

In my meanderings on the Internet to neighborhoods of philosophical discussion and metaphysics the topic of suicide comes up here and there. Places where NDEs, afterlife, reincarnation, prison planet and Christianity are discussed are where I tend to land.

Almost always the question of suicide comes down to courage versus cowardice. Suicide is spoken of in hushed tones. In some religions a suicide isn't given a burial on consecrated ground and even the family is sometimes shunned. I've heard it damns you to hell and it's spitting in God's eye for the gift of life.

From those inclined toward Eastern thought I've heard it undo's the totality of all lessons one has learned through numerous incarnation and one has to start from the very beginning. I would have to start as a bug and progressively work my way up the food chain only to once again face life with relative abundance I should be grateful for but with just enough problems to make it a psychic hell. If I can face that kind of life to the end, perhaps I can attain what? Reborn both wealthy AND well adjusted and perhaps even lucky on top of that? And from that lofty perch I can look down upon the billions in misery and poverty and stoically tell them that their suffering is the entry fee to be like me? Just hang in there. eh?

So suicide is seen as a great relinquishment of the duty that's been bestowed upon us in vague contractual terms with no means for renegotiation and no return warranty despite the product being sometimes damaged off-the-shelf. It's the great "no call, no show" to the workhouse of life. "You'd better have a good reason" they'll say.

I'll be honest, the idea of catching the bus only to find myself a disembodied spirt having made a huge mistake scares me. So does the "lake of fire" so does reincarnating a zillion times, so does eternal blackness, and yet so does eternal life and having to remember all my mistakes or having to answer to those that have made less of them. I can't find a truly agreeable scenario but I wouldn't mind a break.

And here we are in this little community where we attempt to solve the dilemma of SI and muster the courage to make our grand and final exit in a world where what we view as courage is considered cowardice. And I have to say that I really don't know. I don't know how one CAN know without the tangible certainty of what happens after death. And yet, having such knowledge would entirely remove the tension between worlds removing both the weight and consequence of the act.

No one really knows this in a way that can be demonstrated to others. Not the most faithful religious person nor the most hard-nosed materialist despite the certainty with which they make their claims. At the end of the day it all ends with "trust me bro". A belief in anything, even nothing, requires faith.

And whose to say the act can be summed up by binary values? Maybe some suicides are cowardly and others courageous. Some are acts of mercy to one's self or caregivers and others are done in revenge. Some are a matter of practicality and others are done in passion. Some are done in foolishness and others with careful deliberation. Some are for political statements or as a sacrifice for a greater good.

I have been stuck in the deliberation stage for too long. I have my means and methods figured out but now it seems that excessively pondering about it is counter productive to just doing it or attempting to recover.

I aspire to acts of courage and dignity in both life and death. Right now I stick around as a matter of dignity. Dignity may in fact be the most important factor in whether or not a person decides to catch the bus. Heck, even the legal euthanasian program in the US is called "Death with Dignity". Or when the Samurai's committed seppuku it was an act to restore their dignity and honor. Whether it be abuse, addiction, poverty, disgrace, regret, homelessness, sickness or disability much of these conditions assail our sense of dignity and also agency. If I can slowly restore both my dignity and agency, perhaps I can recover. So it looks like it's time to start browsing the Recovery section of SaSu.

A belief in anything, even nothing, requires faith.
Not really. It just requires a willingness to evaluate the evidence. There is no evidence whatever for any kind of afterlife, any kind of reincarnation, any kind of god or gods, any kind of supernatural being or beings. So why suppose that any of those things exist? It's just wishful thinking. (That's putting it politely. Less politely, it's just plain silly.)

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

There is no evidence whatever for

While I respect your right to hold fundamentalist beliefs of scientism, that is not my religion.

 

[Linda]

While I respect your right to hold fundamentalist beliefs of scientism, that is not my religion.

Science is not my religion either. It is not religion at all. Science is an honest attempt to understand the world we live in, using the evidence we have. It may not be perfect, but it's the best we have. Religion is myth, superstition, wishful thinking, and general nonsense.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

I hope it's done with eyes wide open, on your own terms, with no need to explain or justify to a world that offers little in return.

I really like everything you've said here especially about recovery on one's own terms. Thank you.

Yet, those clinging on to them insist they won't be able to cope with their suicide. So- why is it ok for them to insist they can't cope but, not for us?

Great point! You get it. If suicide dialogue were to gain acceptance at some point it would evolve into "good bye" celebrations like our threads here but in person. Society is terrified of that. It conjures up Logan's Run. Some of the MAiD campaign alarms even me to the extent that I wonder if's moving toward a states way of getting rid of undesirables. And as macabre as such a scenario might be, how is a war parade much different?

I wonder if there ever could be a shift so that those potentially left behind could see it that they need to be the courageous ones and, let the person go- if they can't be helped.

As if the potential bus passenger doesn't have enough of a burden to bear, living to placate other's fears of death is too much. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

Science is not my religion either. It is not religion at all. Science is an honest attempt to understand the world we live in, using the evidence we have. It may not be perfect, but it's the best we have. Religion is myth, superstition, wishful thinking, and general nonsense.

The scientific method is a valid method of inquiry and problem solving and something separate from "science" as presented to the public. Religion too is something that can be separated into two basic modes, esoteric (practices and beliefs for the initiated) and exoteric (practices and beliefs for the uninitiated). Most of publicly digestible science is based on two logical fallacies - appeals to authority and appeals to consensus. ie "The experts said so, it must be true" and "everyone believes it so it must be true".

The "no evidence of..." tactic favored by scientific materialists assumes blind faith in experts and accredited institutions as the sole arbiter of truth, ie fundamentalism. Most of it is derived from reframing of language where fiction is rebranded as theory as demonstrated by theoretical concepts such as "dark matter" and "tachyons" which are quantum fan fiction and no less "myth, superstition, wishful thinking, and general nonsense." than anything else as you said.

I'm not sure how far you want to go into the weeds on this as a true discussion deserves it's own thread and is off-topic.

 

[NewtBoy]

Thank you for writing this, it puts to words many sentiments that I've felt many times but don't have the eloquence to communicate in such a clear and concise way.

 

[Linda]

The scientific method is a valid method of inquiry and problem solving and something separate from "science" as presented to the public. Religion too is something that can be separated into two basic modes, esoteric (practices and beliefs for the initiated) and exoteric (practices and beliefs for the uninitiated). Most of publicly digestible science is based on two logical fallacies - appeals to authority and appeals to consensus. ie "The experts said so, it must be true" and "everyone believes it so it must be true".

The "no evidence of..." tactic favored by scientific materialists assumes blind faith in experts and accredited institutions as the sole arbiter of truth, ie fundamentalism. Most of it is derived from reframing of language where fiction is rebranded as theory as demonstrated by theoretical concepts such as "dark matter" and "tachyons" which are quantum fan fiction and no less "myth, superstition, wishful thinking, and general nonsense." than anything else as you said.

I'm not sure how far you want to go into the weeds on this as a true discussion deserves it's own thread and is off-topic.

I am a scientist. I don't "follow authority" or "consensus". I evaluate things for myself, and am perfectly capable of doing so. But I agree that we are getting off topic and that a full discussion would be lengthy. Let's leave that discussion for anothe day.

 

[Poiter1987]

This post was very good. I'm what does SI mean? I'm new here.

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

SI is survival instinct - the bit where people are fully convinced they wanna die, drink the poison, yet still call for help & surprise even themselves, that kinda thing.
All of the above & is interesting to me.
I am an atheist who believes in science, who chooses not to be arrogant about it (some of my friends are, I dip a toe occasionally when provoked).
None of us know. Or can know. But if we ever DO know - because a god or gods appears to us all, or science provides proof, we should all just put our dumbass opinions away & surrender to fact being higher than opinion. Also, it's highly unlikely god will ever appear to us all, & science changes & evolves, it's not static. But the chances of any of us knowing any thing before our buses???
I think we'd have better luck predicting lotto numbers TBH...
I'm not really sure why I've chosen to comment & doubt I had anything useful to add, so I might just say goodnight & thanks for the read, OP.

 

[nooseknot]

This post was very good. I'm what does SI mean? I'm new here.

SI means Survival Instinct

 

[Apathy79]

I don't know how one CAN know without the tangible certainty of what happens after death. And yet, having such knowledge would entirely remove the tension between worlds removing both the weight and consequence of the act.

No one really knows this in a way that can be demonstrated to others. Not the most faithful religious person nor the most hard-nosed materialist despite the certainty with which they make their claims. At the end of the day it all ends with "trust me bro". A belief in anything, even nothing, requires faith.

Loved the entire post tbh but this part was well articulated. I think many would do well to let it sink in. Although I will add something of interest you might find interesting, especially given another thing you said

the idea of catching the bus only to find myself a disembodied spirt having made a huge mistake scares me

So when I was younger, I was involved in a car crash with severe whiplash that knocked me unconscious, and then spent the next few days in a coma. But my personal experience of that was seeing it from above. I saw my body, our car, the car that hit us, the various people coming and going, the traffic build up down the street, etc. I say "my" body because that's how the world sees it, but in that state it meant nothing more to me than anything else in the scene and there was certainly no emotional attachment to it.

Later, when "I" returned to the body, it was a massive disappointment. I went from this surreal space that felt far more like my true "home" than any place in this world back into this body that I had to see and interact with the world through again. It sucked. I wanted to go back. Not because I was suicidal beforehand - but because that place was just better.

Now I feel like I know something through experience that most people don't, that might relate to what happens immediately when we die, and your quote there may just be closer than you think to reality (although the regret part seems less likely). Although I also sense it is a small snippet of the immediate post death period with a big unknown after that, and it's not even a guarantee to be that much. Still it might be an "experiential" take of interest to you. I've also since discovered it aligns with an astonishing number of other near death experiences from all sorts of cultures and times.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

Although I also sense it is a small snippet of the immediate post death period with a big unknown after that, and it's not even a guarantee to be that much. Still it might be an "experiential" take of interest to you. I've also since discovered it aligns with an astonishing number of other near death experiences from all sorts of cultures and times.

Thank you for sharing your out of body experience! A few of us here are familiar with NDE reports, especially now that there are entire websites and youtube channels dedicated to the subject. I also appreciating first hand accounts and anecdotal reports as they seem more trustworthy. Not wanting to come back into the body is a common theme and many NDE'rs go through a period of depression. I sometimes go through a lesser experience of that when I have a really good dream and then wake up and have to go about normal life..

I agree with you about the immediate post-death state most likely being temporary and the great beyond is something we don't and possibly can't now from realm of the living. I did try some fasting once after reading about the VSED method on alt.holiday back in the day. I started to feel my spirit or soul "decoupling" from my body and had a vivid dream where I was a star on the edge of the solar system having no human form. The thought of an afterlife doesn't set me at ease however. It makes me more concerned about how the conditions of my current life came to be and that death may only be a temporary escape which feels like an existential mental bind like some sort of cosmic booby trap. I tend to get carried away with this so I can't say it's a particularly heathy viewpoint. In the past just powering through new goals has offset it, I actually thought I had conquered this mindset a long time ago but here I am and it's much harder to turn a new page this time around.

I'm not really sure why I've chosen to comment & doubt I had anything useful to add, so I might just say goodnight & thanks for the read, OP.

Thank you, I appreciate your reply!

 

[Apathy79]

It makes me more concerned about how the conditions of my current life came to be and that death may only be a temporary escape which feels like an existential mental bind like some sort of cosmic booby trap

I think this is a fear of many suicidal people. I also think it is most likely to be accurate, insofar as what happens after death I expect to be something, not nothing, although the nature of that something isn't at all clear to me. And while I base that assessment on some related experience as described, it's still subject to your earlier caveat about being faith-based at its core, because I am still here, I haven't experienced death itself.

I get that's not a comforting thought for many people. I suppose to soften it, even if it is true, death is still a permanent escape from this body and brain, which might be enough for some.

 

[Lapdog6795]

All the best on the path for recovery man!
On the note of courage and suicide though, I don't understand, why people feel more dignified when they decide to stick around no matter how miserable their life is and think of others decision as less dignified when they decide to go on their own?
If you see logically, all those things just exist in our minds and ends when our lives end. I don't see any dignity or courage hanging somewhere in the universe!
Death is death man, whether you die with "dignity" in some euthanasia program or by drinking SN while listening to your favorite song.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

I don't understand, why people feel more dignified when they decide to stick around no matter how miserable their life is and think of others decision as less dignified when they decide to go on their own?

It's because I help take care of two relatives that are near the end of their own lives and rely upon me. I don't want to leave them them in the lurch. To me that's dying like a punk and not dignified. I don't think mindlessly staying alive is necessarily dignified in and of itself if that makes sense.

 

[AllWentWrong]

In my meanderings on the Internet to neighborhoods of philosophical discussion and metaphysics the topic of suicide comes up here and there. Places where NDEs, afterlife, reincarnation, prison planet and Christianity are discussed are where I tend to land.

Almost always the question of suicide comes down to courage versus cowardice. Suicide is spoken of in hushed tones. In some religions a suicide isn't given a burial on consecrated ground and even the family is sometimes shunned. I've heard it damns you to hell and it's spitting in God's eye for the gift of life.

From those inclined toward Eastern thought I've heard it undo's the totality of all lessons one has learned through numerous incarnation and one has to start from the very beginning. I would have to start as a bug and progressively work my way up the food chain only to once again face life with relative abundance I should be grateful for but with just enough problems to make it a psychic hell. If I can face that kind of life to the end, perhaps I can attain what? Reborn both wealthy AND well adjusted and perhaps even lucky on top of that? And from that lofty perch I can look down upon the billions in misery and poverty and stoically tell them that their suffering is the entry fee to be like me? Just hang in there. eh?

So suicide is seen as a great relinquishment of the duty that's been bestowed upon us in vague contractual terms with no means for renegotiation and no return warranty despite the product being sometimes damaged off-the-shelf. It's the great "no call, no show" to the workhouse of life. "You'd better have a good reason" they'll say.

I'll be honest, the idea of catching the bus only to find myself a disembodied spirt having made a huge mistake scares me. So does the "lake of fire" so does reincarnating a zillion times, so does eternal blackness, and yet so does eternal life and having to remember all my mistakes or having to answer to those that have made less of them. I can't find a truly agreeable scenario but I wouldn't mind a break.

And here we are in this little community where we attempt to solve the dilemma of SI and muster the courage to make our grand and final exit in a world where what we view as courage is considered cowardice. And I have to say that I really don't know. I don't know how one CAN know without the tangible certainty of what happens after death. And yet, having such knowledge would entirely remove the tension between worlds removing both the weight and consequence of the act.

No one really knows this in a way that can be demonstrated to others. Not the most faithful religious person nor the most hard-nosed materialist despite the certainty with which they make their claims. At the end of the day it all ends with "trust me bro". A belief in anything, even nothing, requires faith.

And whose to say the act can be summed up by binary values? Maybe some suicides are cowardly and others courageous. Some are acts of mercy to one's self or caregivers and others are done in revenge. Some are a matter of practicality and others are done in passion. Some are done in foolishness and others with careful deliberation. Some are for political statements or as a sacrifice for a greater good.

I have been stuck in the deliberation stage for too long. I have my means and methods figured out but now it seems that excessively pondering about it is counter productive to just doing it or attempting to recover.

I aspire to acts of courage and dignity in both life and death. Right now I stick around as a matter of dignity. Dignity may in fact be the most important factor in whether or not a person decides to catch the bus. Heck, even the legal euthanasian program in the US is called "Death with Dignity". Or when the Samurai's committed seppuku it was an act to restore their dignity and honor. Whether it be abuse, addiction, poverty, disgrace, regret, homelessness, sickness or disability much of these conditions assail our sense of dignity and also agency. If I can slowly restore both my dignity and agency, perhaps I can recover. So it looks like it's time to start browsing the Recovery section of SaSu.

Thoreau and Emerson moved me in their writing. I was born and raised CHristian. THose guys believed you go back to the universal soul when you die. It is a great concept. I feel like I'm one with the soul when in nature.

 

[Lapdog6795]

It's because I help take care of two relatives that are near the end of their own lives and rely upon me. I don't want to leave them them in the lurch. To me that's dying like a punk and not dignified. I don't think mindlessly staying alive is necessarily dignified in and of itself if that makes sense.

You're doing a great work on the basis of morality and ethics by taking care of them. And they're lucky to have you by their side.

But what I'm saying is morality and ethics are man-made stories. Do you see them existing anywhere else other than in our heads?

I agree you're doing the work of dignity, other humans will also agree. Because we share the same stories and concepts.

I don't see a chimpanzee coming and giving a pat on your back saying: "good work my man". I don't see the universe or whatever exists outside of that giving even a tiny shit about our concepts called dignity, courage, or cowardice.

All I'm saying is don't restrict yourself in any way because some people think something is dignified and something is not. At the end, who cares!

 

[AreWeWinning]

So suicide is seen as a great relinquishment of the duty that's been bestowed upon us in vague contractual terms with no means for renegotiation and no return warranty despite the product being sometimes damaged off-the-shelf.

How is the product damaged off-the-shelf? What are you talking about? If this reincarnation stuff exists (which I don't believe it does), then suffering is just part of the challenge. Otherwise, what would be the point? What would make it a 'test'? You just hate the game and want to change the rules to your own liking. But that's not how it works. Again, assuming this is what you believe in... Which I assume you do, otherwise why would you be thinking about such things.

I wouldn't mind a break.

Do you think your God cares?

No one really knows this in a way that can be demonstrated to others. Not the most faithful religious person nor the most hard-nosed materialist despite the certainty with which they make their claims. At the end of the day it all ends with "trust me bro". A belief in anything, even nothing, requires faith.

Yes. Very true. And if that is true, why think about it at all? Like, seriously! What's even the point in thinking about it??

It's not about what comes after - which you cannot know - but what is here in life. Do you enjoy it? Can you carry on? Yes or no. Make your decision based on what you know, which is your life. Thinking about afterlife and whatnot leads nowhere.

And whose to say the act can be summed up by binary values? Maybe some suicides are cowardly and others courageous. Some are acts of mercy to one's self or caregivers and others are done in revenge. Some are a matter of practicality and others are done in passion. Some are done in foolishness and others with careful deliberation. Some are for political statements or as a sacrifice for a greater good.

Are you worried about afterlife and reincarnation, or are you worried about how you are perceived by other (living) people? The two are not the same. Seems like you're confused about what you're really worried about. Or do you think the fact whether it's a courageous or cowardly act somehow affects what your 'next life' is going to be like? Then, again, it's impossible to know either way, so why even think about it?

I aspire to acts of courage and dignity in both life and death. Right now I stick around as a matter of dignity. Dignity may in fact be the most important factor in whether or not a person decides to catch the bus.

Ok, so, it's about your dignity. Which again, makes me confused about what afterlife or reincarnation has to do with it. Your whole post is confusing, and it's unclear to me what your main point is, what you're trying to say.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

How is the product damaged off-the-shelf? What are you talking about?

Some people are born handicapped, mentally ill, to abusive families etc, that's what I mean.

You just hate the game and want to change the rules to your own liking. But that's not how it works.

Define "the game". Who doesn't want to change the rules? Many people are able to change the rules. That's why people vote. That's why legislation is pushed, people protest, riot, look for life hacks or any number of actions and that's why people invent things.

Do you think your God cares?

This is the type rhetorical question that radical fundamentalist believers in atheist materialism are fond of asking. They claim they aren't part of a religion yet endlessly proselytize to convince others to believe in a great nothing. *declines pamphlet and closes door*

Like, seriously! What's even the point in thinking about it??

This is an Internet discussion forum where people share their thoughts. Why read and reply to it?

Thinking about afterlife and whatnot leads nowhere.

Well the great Taoists, Bodhisattvas, Stoics and Saints all thought, spoke and wrote about the after life not to mention the many mystical traditions. Thinking about the afterlife entails abstract thinking making it one of the hallmarks of the human condition.

Are you worried about....it's impossible to know either way, so why even think about it?

Concerned is the better definition. Because I still find value in pondering the unknown.

Your whole post is confusing, and it's unclear to me what your main point is, what you're trying to say.

That's fair. The "point" of my post was to express some of my thoughts and viewpoints around recurring topics on this board related to survival instinct, the afterlife and the dilemma of living. I did not seek to convince anyone of anything but rather express thoughts that can't be expressed elsewhere without social repercussions.

There are members here with their own dedicated threads expressing their thoughts for no other reason but to express them and they have THOUSANDS of posts under them. And you know what? That's okay, Maybe just getting it out there into the void of the Internet and seeing who answers IS the point. And for that reason I thank you for your contribution and dialogue.

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

This is the type rhetorical question

Well, that escalated after I put myself to bed.
I just wanted to attempt to lighten the mood (on a suicide forum, ffs) with this observation
- a question is only rhetorical if you don't answer it
& then I'll exit the thread...
Best of luck to all.