Obligation to Live

[Giraffey]

I haven't been around here for a couple of months, unfortunately (self-evidently) I didn't CTB but I did suffer some nasty health issues. Coronavirus, a heart attack at the tender age of 26 and I now have a syncope disorder which has seen me fainting randomly. Put together the circumstances made it practically impossible to be online.

This will be a long post and I have a tendency to ramble (sorry!), you can skip to the last section (TLDR) which sums up the point of this thread.

How do you justify ending your life when, although it is terminally unhappy and unproductive, your death would cause tremendous pain, anguish and suffering to those you love?

Background
To the topic at hand then. First of all, this is not, directly or indirectly, a question of whether or not I want to end my life, I have weighed up the options carefully taking into account my potential future course and decided that ending my life earlier than would be ordinarily naturally expected is the best option for me personally. I have been assessed as mentally competent by a senior psychiatrist as recently as last month and I'm not suffering from any depression or impairment of mind. That much is decided then, the real question is whether or not it is morally right for me to end my life in my circumstances because of the effect my death would have on a number of those I hold near and dear.

One of my favourite words is "infelicific" meaning "not productive of happiness" and that is an adequate summary of my current existence. As some may be aware, I lost my daughter some time ago when she was very young, my ex-partner was a vile and abusive character whose abuse of me has left permanent scars not just to my mind but my life as well. These are not the kind of scars that can be repaired with time or therapy. I won't get into details (I already did in my intro post) but these factors have made the prospect of a future family, at worst impossible and at best exceptionally arduous and difficult.

I met the love of my life, a true soulmate late last year but it fell apart because of the damage my ex-partner had done to my life - damage that cannot ever be repaired. It became obvious then that the circumstances my ex had created that led to the breaking apart of my relationship were immutable and would infect any future relationship I was in, regardless of one's love and commitment. So essentially, all of my reasons for being alive and having hope, having a partner, a family, a career are if not impossible then at best extremely unlikely and fraught with risk and pain not just to myself but others as well.

The Moral Issue
I have the means to end my life, a detailed plan which has multiple different methods I may use depending on the circumstances, and I have overcome my 'fear' of the process of death itself. As far as I am concerned, I am ready. Why then, am I still here?

I am currently living my life entirely in the service of other people. My continued existence brings no benefit to myself, in-fact I suffer increasing emotional pain every day, but ending my life would directly harm at least two parties who I love and care about deeply, and indirectly harm many more.

I love my parents so dearly. I'm not particularly close to them although I speak to them daily and play a central role in their lives, I keep my emotional distance from them. The last time I had a breakdown, my parents fell to pieces. My mother became unable to work and sank into a deep, dark depression and my father, although remaining stoic, couldn't support my mother and internalised all of his pain and grief. I saw directly the effect that even a mental health crisis had on them. My father also has some health issues at the moment owing to their advancing years, and my biggest fear is that my death could trigger one or both of them to have a heart attack owing to the lack of their ability to cope with stress.

My second major concern is for my former partner (who I shall henceforth call 'Anna') - who was my soulmate and who I shall always love more than I am capable of loving anyone else. After we parted ways she had a major breakdown. It was two months before we started talking again and during that time her entire world had fallen apart, she had stopped eating and drinking, she couldn't move for feeling horribly sick all day, every day, and at one point the stress even triggered her to have a 'functional seizure' which resulted in her being in a car crash - both she and her son in the back were unharmed thank goodness, but it could have been so much worse.

I have a science background and specialised in the study of nausea and vomiting, I also have some training in hypnotherapy and CBT, and regularly counselled my friends through student crises back when I was at university. That rather odd combination of skills made me a good fit to help Anna recover and indeed in the couple of months since I have been speaking to her again her life has dramatically improved. But there is a lot more work that needs to be done, and for various reasons, unfortunately, I am the only person who is able to help her (and that sadly appears to include the numerous professionals who have tried to assist her over the years).

It's tempting to make the case that whilst I may have a moral duty to my parents by blood, I have no such duty to Anna. Perhaps not, but my death would cause her certain and significant harm, and she has two children under 10 who whilst not related to me, I still love and care about as I would my own. The risk that I may indirectly rob them of their mother by rendering her in complete and irreparable despair is absolutely unthinkable. Having said that, continuing to be in her life and help her is also adding to my suffering as I must watch her continue a relationship with somebody else, longing for that which I once had, but now cannot ever have - feeling so deeply unhappy and unfulfilled. I should add at this point, ending my ties with Anna would not alter the equation and make me happier, nor would it make me less unhappy - the pain of watching on helplessly would simply be replaced by the pain of knowing that she was probably in the hospital again because my termination of care had caused her to sink into another breakdown.

Those are the main examples, but there are others.

Short Version (TLDR Conclusion)
When people you love and care about are completely reliant on your continued existence and incapable of reconciling the cessation of your otherwise interminable pain and suffering, with their own moral world-view and beliefs, and inevitably, therefore, you know that your death (or termination of your commitments to them) would cause them direct and indirect harm - how do you even begin to justify ending your life?

Do you remain stoic and like King Sisyphus, continue to suffer the immense and indefinite pain of pushing the boulder up an endlessly steep hill? Continuing only for the sake of having no other option, because giving up would allow the boulder to roll back down and destroy your loved ones who are chained behind you, and would be unable to jump out of its path.

Is there some way in which you can justify your death? Must you first attempt to arm your loved ones with the coping skills they will necessarily need to bear the grief of your loss, must you first fix their problems or find some way to unburden yourself from them before you CTB? What if it isn't possible to unburden yourself, must you then abstain from suicide and continue to live in a kind of emotionally vegetative state?

I know that for many here, suicide is an autonomous decision and although others would be upset it is still your right not to be paternalistically kept alive in chronic despair, yet what for those of us like me where suicide would cause direct harm to people we care about? I know there isn't a single answer, but I'd really appreciate some thoughts on where to begin

 

[Myforevercharlie]

I just can't say anything else then im so fucking happy you're back!

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I'm glad you're back, too. And also glad for the definition of "infelicific" in your signature. I had an idea of what it meant, but never bothered to look it up and understand, I just let it bother me that it looked like "incelific," which didn't at all jive with what or how you write. Thanks for clearing it up!

You've explained your situation quite eloquently. As you interpret and experience it, it is indeed Sisyphean. The use of symbols is powerful. Others being behind you and chained to you is very revealing about how you view them -- as if they have no choice about being chained to you, as if you are burdensome to them, dragging them around -- disempowering them? They are not the boulder, yet is the tasks you perform for them which seem to make up much of the weight of the boulder. It seems they are unending tasks, uncurable, and you keep doing all the work for others...yet they are chained behind you? I can see them being behind you as a leader, but the sense I get is not that they are dragging you back, as you are so powerful that you can manage the boulder and they they themselves are rather light, but that you are so powerful that you unwillingly drag them along in your continued struggles. I don't know how you see the image, but from the outside, they seem much smaller and younger than you, and they're either ineffectively fighting to be let free from you, or they've given up and are being drug along -- passive, ineffective, weak, wounded, juvenile or even infantile. As such, it seems to me that you are somehow portraying yourself as a villain in your continuing relationships with them, yet another burden.

Co-dependency and enmeshment suck. I respect how you try to act in ways worthy of respect. I respect that you recognize humans are interconnected and rely on one another. But there is so much imbalance in these situations! Everyone is benefitting from your support, but you receive nothing back. I relate this to something I've been working through, and it has to do with responsibility, with ownership.

In my personal example, my parents were abusive, and they do not own it. The people who caused them to become abusive are no longer around to own it, and my parents don't put any blame on their parents either (ex: my mother idolizes her father, who actually was a charismatic, controlling, and domestically violent alcoholic). So everything was dumped on me. I was blamed for causing them to abuse. I was blamed for calling it abuse. I've stopped taking the blame, and I've stopped taking ownership of the abuse and the causes. But they don't own it, nor do they allow their families to own it. And that's a challenge for me. I recognize their damage is such that they are incapable of recognizing, let alone owning, what they did to me, and I recognize that I am not responsible for what was done to me -- but then where does that boulder go if no one owns it, if no one will push it? The fucking thing just keeps coming back to me, expecting someone to own it. Do you have a suggestion for what I could do with that symbol? I want the fucking thing to go away. I don't know how to extricate it from the concept of ownership. It's like a dog that wants someone to hold its leash (I think I may be working this out here -- it can run free, it doesn't need anyone to hold the leash, it can let it drag, and it's up to it to figure out how to remove the leash when it's ready, it's not my leash, not my boulder, not my concern. Only, now the leash is here, wanting someone to own it! )

In your case, it seems you can't ever win over the boulder, can't push it away, then unchain yourself from the others and run free, so you just keep their boulder from crushing them. It's not your boulder, at least not entirely, but they don't and can't own it, either, and unlike the boulder that comes to me demanding ownership, the boulder in your scenario is like a steamroller that you're just postponing destroying its intended targets. They'd be safe if they'd just die before you, or finish healing.

I wonder if it would serve you to play around with the symbols in your scenario, see what happens if you remove chains, put others in front of the boulder, break up the boulder, change the incline of the hill, change the sizes of each person, change their ages, change the material of the chains and the boulder, etc. You've done hypnosis work, so I can imagine you understand what I'm saying here, and how powerful it is. And of course there's also the option of coming up with new symbols and new scenarios that better serve you, but maybe this is the one that wants your attention, and is giving you the opportunity to take power over it. Or maybe it's so undeservingly powerful that it's trying to inhibit coming up with more empowering symbols and scenarios to serve you, the one who serves everyone else.

Edit: I just read this again, it's on the about page of my profile:

If any person is able to convince me and show me that I do not think or act rightly, I will gladly change; for I seek the truth, by which no person was ever injured. But they are injured who abide in their error and ignorance. - Marcus Aurelius

My stuff with my parents is tangled akin to how yours is with your parents. All are injured that are abiding in their error (not owning what is their responsibility) and their ignorance (of root causes, of one was is actually responsibile for, of how to take responsibility). Even though my parents shunned me years ago for calling out abuse and refusing to agree with their narrative that it wasn't abuse, or let it get swept back under the rug by backing off from calling it that, they are going to be impacted by my ctb. I am an only child, they are the next of kin. Things will land in them that they will have to either take responsibility for or deny everything to do with me, including my body. And of course they will have emotional responses grounded in their ignorance. I can't do anything about either issue, the responsibility or the reactions. If I send instructions, including to just let it all go and take no responsibility, or all the practical info if they do, they're only going to interpret what I say through their own filters. I've already lost before I start. So I feel like shit for what's going to fall on them, but at least I'm differentiating what is in my power, what is not, what I can and cannot control, what is my responsibility and what is not, etc. I think at best, it can only suck less and hurt less, knowing that they will indeed hurt, that they love/ed an inaccurate version of me but to them it is still love, that they will suffer some consequences of their own making and some of my making. I do not want them to have any burden or responsibility, but I did not make the next-of-kin laws and cannot change them.

Apologies if it feels like I'm highjacking your thread. It's just that your issues here relate to my own, and as I view your problems constructively, it's constructive for me at the same time. I appreciate that you shared what you did, I've unexpectedly benefitted from it, and I sincerely hope that you benefit!

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Again walls of text for one simple answer. No one has any obligation to do anything other then what they wish to do...

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Again walls of text for one simple answer. No one has any obligation to do anything other then what they wish to do...

Always makes me feel so warm and happy inside when you negate and criticize when I or others write more than you prefer about my/their own personal stuff. I'll be walking on air for the rest of the afternoon! Happy sigh...

 

[nigelhernandez]

Again walls of text for one simple answer. No one has any obligation to do anything other then what they wish to do...

I agree. Quite frankly the idea of being forced to live for others is disgusting.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Always makes me feel so warm and happy inside when you negate and criticize when I or others write more than you prefer about my/their own personal stuff. I'll be walking on air for the rest of the afternoon! Happy sigh...

You could've atleast liked my post then if you were sincere. I like your posts even with all your sideways jabs...

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

You could've atleast liked my post then if you were sincere. I like your posts even with all your sideways jabs...

Okay, Brick. I'll just ignore until you're out of attack mode and post another "everyone come beat me up for knowingly acting like a jerk" thread.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Okay, Brick. I'll just ignore until you're out of attack mode and post another "everyone come beat me up for knowingly acting like a jerk" thread.

I only attack myself, not anyone else here.
This shit isn't even about us, so don't attack me here.

 

[nitrogen]

Hardcore rubbernecker, here I come!!!!

@GoodPersonEffed @Brick In The Wall

Don't attack me cuz loving me is your only option. Says who?.....ugh......my made up etiquette of treating good-intentioned mentally vulnerable rubberneckers on a suicide forum.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Hardcore rubbernecker, here I come!!!!

@GoodPersonEffed @Brick In The Wall

Don't attack me cuz loving me is your only option. Says who?.....ugh......my made up etiquette of treating good-intentioned mentally vulnerable rubberneckers on a suicide forum.

I'd gladly fuck it out, glad to see you Nitrogen!

 

[a.n.kirillov]

I agree. Quite frankly the idea of being forced to live for others is disgusting.

You are not forced. Most people will naturally feel some amount of obligation towards people they are close to; not feeling that way is perfectly fine as well. On the other hand, we as a society should ensure that dependants, especially children, are protected and cared for, and that people in a bad spot – financially, psychologically – don't have children in the first place.

But ultimately, there is no moral authority before which you have to justify your actions. The question to ask yourself as a parent, is whether or not your suicide would do more harm than good to your children. There are cases (especially early on in their lives) where giving them free for adoption is the better alternative to them growing up with an emotionally unstable parent, who will potentially traumatize them for life by killing themselves after bonding has already occured.

My four cents

 

[nigelhernandez]

You are not forced. Most people will naturally feel some amount of obligation towards people they are close to; not feeling that way is perfectly fine as well. On the other hand, we as a society should ensure that dependants, especially children, are protected and cared for, and that people in a bad spot – financially, psychologically – don't have children in the first place.

But ultimately, there is no moral authority before which you have to justify your actions. The question to ask yourself as a parent, is whether or not your suicide would do more harm than good to your children. There are cases (especially early on in their lives) where giving them free for adoption is the better alternative to them growing up with an emotionally unstable parent, who will potentially traumatize them for life by killing themselves after bonding has already occured.

My four cents

Okay when it comes to children under 18, I agree that suicide is not justified (personally) because you brought them into this life and they deserve your financial/emotional support.

But when it comes to children not committing suicide because of parents, I don't agree. The parents should have thought about the possibility of the kids not enjoying their life before bringing them into existence.

 

[ssaaahmo]

I haven't been around here for a couple of months, unfortunately (self-evidently) I didn't CTB but I did suffer some nasty health issues. Coronavirus, a heart attack at the tender age of 26 and I now have a syncope disorder which has seen me fainting randomly. Put together the circumstances made it practically impossible to be online.

This will be a long post and I have a tendency to ramble (sorry!), you can skip to the last section (TLDR) which sums up the point of this thread.

How do you justify ending your life when, although it is terminally unhappy and unproductive, your death would cause tremendous pain, anguish and suffering to those you love?

Background
To the topic at hand then. First of all, this is not, directly or indirectly, a question of whether or not I want to end my life, I have weighed up the options carefully taking into account my potential future course and decided that ending my life earlier than would be ordinarily naturally expected is the best option for me personally. I have been assessed as mentally competent by a senior psychiatrist as recently as last month and I'm not suffering from any depression or impairment of mind. That much is decided then, the real question is whether or not it is morally right for me to end my life in my circumstances because of the effect my death would have on a number of those I hold near and dear.

One of my favourite words is "infelicific" meaning "not productive of happiness" and that is an adequate summary of my current existence. As some may be aware, I lost my daughter some time ago when she was very young, my ex-partner was a vile and abusive character whose abuse of me has left permanent scars not just to my mind but my life as well. These are not the kind of scars that can be repaired with time or therapy. I won't get into details (I already did in my intro post) but these factors have made the prospect of a future family, at worst impossible and at best exceptionally arduous and difficult.

I met the love of my life, a true soulmate late last year but it fell apart because of the damage my ex-partner had done to my life - damage that cannot ever be repaired. It became obvious then that the circumstances my ex had created that led to the breaking apart of my relationship were immutable and would infect any future relationship I was in, regardless of one's love and commitment. So essentially, all of my reasons for being alive and having hope, having a partner, a family, a career are if not impossible then at best extremely unlikely and fraught with risk and pain not just to myself but others as well.

The Moral Issue
I have the means to end my life, a detailed plan which has multiple different methods I may use depending on the circumstances, and I have overcome my 'fear' of the process of death itself. As far as I am concerned, I am ready. Why then, am I still here?

I am currently living my life entirely in the service of other people. My continued existence brings no benefit to myself, in-fact I suffer increasing emotional pain every day, but ending my life would directly harm at least two parties who I love and care about deeply, and indirectly harm many more.

I love my parents so dearly. I'm not particularly close to them although I speak to them daily and play a central role in their lives, I keep my emotional distance from them. The last time I had a breakdown, my parents fell to pieces. My mother became unable to work and sank into a deep, dark depression and my father, although remaining stoic, couldn't support my mother and internalised all of his pain and grief. I saw directly the effect that even a mental health crisis had on them. My father also has some health issues at the moment owing to their advancing years, and my biggest fear is that my death could trigger one or both of them to have a heart attack owing to the lack of their ability to cope with stress.

My second major concern is for my former partner (who I shall henceforth call 'Anna') - who was my soulmate and who I shall always love more than I am capable of loving anyone else. After we parted ways she had a major breakdown. It was two months before we started talking again and during that time her entire world had fallen apart, she had stopped eating and drinking, she couldn't move for feeling horribly sick all day, every day, and at one point the stress even triggered her to have a 'functional seizure' which resulted in her being in a car crash - both she and her son in the back were unharmed thank goodness, but it could have been so much worse.

I have a science background and specialised in the study of nausea and vomiting, I also have some training in hypnotherapy and CBT, and regularly counselled my friends through student crises back when I was at university. That rather odd combination of skills made me a good fit to help Anna recover and indeed in the couple of months since I have been speaking to her again her life has dramatically improved. But there is a lot more work that needs to be done, and for various reasons, unfortunately, I am the only person who is able to help her (and that sadly appears to include the numerous professionals who have tried to assist her over the years).

It's tempting to make the case that whilst I may have a moral duty to my parents by blood, I have no such duty to Anna. Perhaps not, but my death would cause her certain and significant harm, and she has two children under 10 who whilst not related to me, I still love and care about as I would my own. The risk that I may indirectly rob them of their mother by rendering her in complete and irreparable despair is absolutely unthinkable. Having said that, continuing to be in her life and help her is also adding to my suffering as I must watch her continue a relationship with somebody else, longing for that which I once had, but now cannot ever have - feeling so deeply unhappy and unfulfilled. I should add at this point, ending my ties with Anna would not alter the equation and make me happier, nor would it make me less unhappy - the pain of watching on helplessly would simply be replaced by the pain of knowing that she was probably in the hospital again because my termination of care had caused her to sink into another breakdown.

Those are the main examples, but there are others.

Short Version (TLDR Conclusion)
When people you love and care about are completely reliant on your continued existence and incapable of reconciling the cessation of your otherwise interminable pain and suffering, with their own moral world-view and beliefs, and inevitably, therefore, you know that your death (or termination of your commitments to them) would cause them direct and indirect harm - how do you even begin to justify ending your life?

Do you remain stoic and like King Sisyphus, continue to suffer the immense and indefinite pain of pushing the boulder up an endlessly steep hill? Continuing only for the sake of having no other option, because giving up would allow the boulder to roll back down and destroy your loved ones who are chained behind you, and would be unable to jump out of its path.

Is there some way in which you can justify your death? Must you first attempt to arm your loved ones with the coping skills they will necessarily need to bear the grief of your loss, must you first fix their problems or find some way to unburden yourself from them before you CTB? What if it isn't possible to unburden yourself, must you then abstain from suicide and continue to live in a kind of emotionally vegetative state?

I know that for many here, suicide is an autonomous decision and although others would be upset it is still your right not to be paternalistically kept alive in chronic despair, yet what for those of us like me where suicide would cause direct harm to people we care about? I know there isn't a single answer, but I'd really appreciate some thoughts on where to begin

i hope you find healing sending hugs your way

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@SlowMo, I read this and was reminded of your Sisyphean devotion in the service of others.

That which gives value to a diamond is our having purchased it; to virtue, the difficulty of it; to devotion, our suffering; and to medicine, its bitterness. - Montaigne

I'm not implying it's an accurate reflection, only that it reminded me of your OP.

 

[Giraffey]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful and detailed reply @GoodPersonEffed - I have read it a couple of times now and I think I need to take a little more time before I reply properly. Indeed, I've been following your lead and experimenting with the imagery of the metaphor to see what feels right. I'm glad that you found a way to take something from it yourself too. Perhaps just as your thoughts have inspired me, mine will, in turn, inspire another avenue of thought and healing within you.

@Brick In The Wall : You're absolutely right, I'm afraid I have a habit of rambling and writing walls of text when the point could be expressed in just a sentence or two. I don't know the backstory so it's quite amusing to see the rather random direction a large part of this thread has taken!

I completely agree with you all though, I believe that it should be my right to choose my date of departure and that being forced to live for the sake of others - whether or not it is they who are forcing me or my own sense of guilt - that is a tragedy. I'm just not seeing a way to reconcile my right to end my life with the right of those around me not to be destroyed by my actions - that barely makes sense...

It's going to be a long and pensive evening I suspect...

 

[Lost in a Dream]

When people you love and care about are completely reliant on your continued existence and incapable of reconciling the cessation of your otherwise interminable pain and suffering, with their own moral world-view and beliefs, and inevitably, therefore, you know that your death (or termination of your commitments to them) would cause them direct and indirect harm - how do you even begin to justify ending your life?

Do you remain stoic and like King Sisyphus, continue to suffer the immense and indefinite pain of pushing the boulder up an endlessly steep hill? Continuing only for the sake of having no other option, because giving up would allow the boulder to roll back down and destroy your loved ones who are chained behind you, and would be unable to jump out of its path.

This is the same thing that I currently find myself struggling with. The biggest problem that I see with continuing to push that boulder up the hill is that at some point, it will be too difficult to keep going. Eventually you will lose all of your strength and then it will crush you and roll down the hill anyway. Whoever happens to be at the bottom of the hill is going to experience the same thing, whether you let it go or it makes that decision for you.

Even so, the next question would be: Who chained them to the bottom of the hill? Was it you? Was it someone or something else? Perhaps they chained themselves there, to guilt-trip you into pushing the boulder up the hill. Since all of our situations are different the answers that we come up with for that question will be different as well.

All I know is, if you are forced to bear this burden and the people that you are doing it for are doing nothing to make it easier on you, then I feel like the most reasonable response is the one that Brick in the Wall gave you:

Again walls of text for one simple answer. No one has any obligation to do anything other then what they wish to do...

If it is the case that they can't do anything to help you, even if they wanted to, then it would make it a much harder choice to make, but living a life of misery for them is eventually going to destroy you and then you won't have the option to CTB or not. What that might look like depends on the bad things that will inevitably happen to you the longer you stay in this world. It could be a terminal illness, paralysis, or any number of things that could put you in a position where others will decide for you whether you live or die and if they force you to live, but your existence becomes worse, then you would likely be trapped and feeling regret. I know that would be the case for me.

I think what makes it easier for me is that I'm not alone on my "hill" and not all of the people I care about are chained at the bottom. At least a couple of them are helping me to push the boulder so I can take a break once in a while. Once I lose those people, I'm letting the fucker roll. It's unfortunate what will happen to those chained at the bottom, but I didn't put them there and there is nothing I can do to move them out of the way. I just have to hope that the damn thing misses them somehow (and by that I mean I hope they can find a good way to cope with the fact that I chose to CTB).

 

[Pryras]

I suppose I'm just selfish in that I don't consider their feelings about my death. Thankfully, no one is reliant upon my existence and while I think I may be missed by a few, everything passes.

Well-loved and cherished icons commit suicide all the time and we mourn but the grief passes and life continues. My presence on earth hasn't impacted anyone's life to the point where I would be mourned or remembered for anything remarkable or notable.