Hello, sorry for asking something that you could have explained somewhere else, but I couldn't find the reference to N2O elsewhere nor there is a sticky thread.
I'm not familiar with this method and it seems to me that @hell toupee and @Intoxicated have some knowledge about it, so I'm mainly refferring to you if it's okay.
How does N2O act? For what I've understood it helps you lose consciousness (anesthetic properties I guess) but is it also the method to make you CTB?
If it is, is N2O poisonous (like CO) so a prolonged exposure to a certain concentration in normal air is enough to get the job done, or, as I guess, does it need to cause asphyxia by being the only gas in the atmosphere around you, like N2 in an exit bag?
If it needs to work like an exit bag, for what I know the aim should be to have around 1000L of gas at atmospheric pressure (where I live N2 is sold mostly in 5L cylinders at 220 bar), but in this thread I've read about 3,3L cylinders without specifying the pressure. What should be the setup then?
I'll let @Intoxicated reply as he knows a lot more about it than I do. If he doesn't answer you within a day or 2, tag me again and I'll come back and answer.
To answer the important question though - yes, N2O can be used to ctb. Personally, I would consider it a better option than inert gasses or poisons like CO. With inert gasses and other asphyxiants like CO/Butane/etc, it seems people have mixed results - some say they are peaceful, others complain of burning and other bad effect when inhaling noxious concentrations of these gasses. N2O is the literal opposite in that the effects are actually at worst pleasant, at best euphoric. It acts somewhat similar to CO as it interferes with the blood's ability to carry oxygen. The result is cerebral hypoxia. It does not cause loss of consciousness from it's anesthetic effects - it causes loss of consciousness from hypoxia.
I'll also touch on your last question. You are referring to a continuous flow setup like the exit bag. This is unnecessary - it just creates more of a probability that something could go wrong (flow rates, tubing, exhaust, etc). What we are using is a closed system - I plan to fill a 13 gallon trash bag with N2O, then seal it with plastic wrap around my neck. Since your body only absorbs a small amount of the N2O you ingest, the rest is moved to the lungs to be exhaled. That means when you exhale in to the bag, you are still somewhat replenishing the N2O concentration. It only takes a handful of deep breaths and 30-40 seconds and you are out.
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I'll let @Intoxicated reply as he knows a lot more about it than I do. If he doesn't answer you within a day or 2, tag me again and I'll come back and answer.
To answer the important question though - yes, N2O can be used to ctb. Personally, I would consider it a better option than inert gasses or poisons like CO. With inert gasses and other asphyxiants like CO/Butane/etc, it seems people have mixed results - some say they are peaceful, others complain of burning and other bad effect when inhaling noxious concentrations of these gasses. N2O is the literal opposite in that the effects are actually at worst pleasant, at best euphoric. It acts somewhat similar to CO as it interferes with the blood's ability to carry oxygen. The result is cerebral hypoxia. It does not cause loss of consciousness from it's anesthetic effects - it causes loss of consciousness from hypoxia.
I'll also touch on your last question. You are referring to a continuous flow setup like the exit bag. This is unnecessary - it just creates more of a probability that something could go wrong (flow rates, tubing, exhaust, etc). What we are using is a closed system - I plan to fill a 13 gallon trash bag with N2O, then seal it with plastic wrap around my neck. Since your body only absorbs a small amount of the N2O you ingest, the rest is moved to the lungs to be exhaled. That means when you exhale in to the bag, you are still somewhat replenishing the N2O concentration. It only takes a handful of deep breaths and 30-40 seconds and you are out.
Thank you for your reply. I'm not here to judge anyone method to CTB, but to me it seems that a continuous flow should be safer and less risk prone with respect to filling a trash bag and taping it onto the head. Yes, the tools would be more difficult to acquire, but once set up correctly, there would not be the risk of leaking gas from the bag while taping it and there would be room for CO2 to exit from the bag and not to trigger hypercapnic response.
Also, do you have some data/article/report about losing consciousness by N2O in the past.
N2o in the form of whippits and smaller containers , can they be used to force unconsciousness to assist in other forms of ctb? Such as forcing early unconsciousness for fsh or maybe even Co methods?
I'm just curious if it can be using in such a manner.
N₂O is a simple asphyxiant (like helium and nitrogen), which can be used to displace oxygen from the lungs, so you can make very low concentration and partial pressure of oxygen there.
When you breathe normal air, your lungs
take carbon dioxide from the blood and fill their space with this gas, which you then exhale,
take oxygen from their space and saturate the blood with oxygen via binding it to hemoglobin.
Under some unusual conditions, both processes can be inverted. If you inhale carbon dioxide at a high concentration (30% or above), your lungs will saturate the blood with carbon dioxide, which can produce loss of consciousness in a matter of 20 - 30 seconds (even if the concentration of oxygen in the breathed gas mixture is 21 - 70%). On the other hand, if you breathe a gas mixture that contains less than 6% oxygen at the normal atmospheric pressure, your lungs will steal oxygen from hemoglobin in the blood and fill their space with this gas, which you then exhale (similarly to how you normally exhale carbon dioxide). Quick loss of oxygen in the bloodstream leads to quick loss of consciousness.
Loss of oxygen in the bloodstream slows down as the blood oxygen saturation approaches the equilibrium with the current partial pressure of oxygen in the breathed gas mixture. Lower concentrations of oxygen in the lungs' space can produce an equilibrium with lower values of blood oxygen saturation. Once the equilibrium becomes close, farther loss of oxygen in the bloodstream is mostly done via consumption of oxygen by the cells.
So, basically, nitrous oxide can cause death in the same way as inert gases (via hepoxemia leading to hypoxia). Notable differences are: nitrous oxide has additional dissociative and anesthetic effects and can reduce discomfort (should it occur for whatever reason), it has additional sedative effect, and sometimes it can cause diffusion hypoxia.
Diffusion hypoxia appears only when you stop breathing nitrous after inhaling it for minutes and start to breathe normal air, so that N₂O dissolved in blood plasma goes back to the lungs and partially displaces air.
Unlike CO, N₂O has very low toxicity (as long as you mix N₂O with enough oxygen to avoid hypoxia, you'd need to inhale it for days in order to cause significant health issues).
In terms of easiness and duration of recovery after stopped gas administration, I'd place it next to the commonly used inert gases (because of possible diffusion hypoxia):
If it needs to work like an exit bag, for what I know the aim should be to have around 1000L of gas at atmospheric pressure (where I live N2 is sold mostly in 5L cylinders at 220 bar), but in this thread I've read about 3,3L cylinders without specifying the pressure.
N₂O is typically stored as liquid under pressure of ~50 atm (depends on the temperature - see the table below)
Temperature
degrees. C.
Vapour Pressure
Bar Abs
—20
18.01
—15
20.83
—10
23.97
—5
27.44
0
31.27
5
35.47
10
40.07
15
45.10
20
50.60
25
56.60
30
63.15
35
70.33
Tcrit 36.42
72.51
If you want to know how much gas you can get at the normal atmospheric pressure, you should look at the mass of N₂O rather than the volume of the container. You can divide the number of grams of N₂O by 2 in order to get an approximate number of liters of the gas you'd get after evaporation and expansion. For example, 8 g of N₂O from a typical culinary charger expands to approximately 4 liters of gas under normal pressure. You can evaluate the volume using this online calculator
The normal/standard atmospheric pressure is 760 mmHg (the real pressure may significantly differ at high altitudes).
The molar mass of N₂O is 44.013 g/mol.
The temperature can be assumed to be 0 °C or nearly so (the released gas is cold).
No, the mechanism of action is different. CO binds to hemoglobin, forming carboxyhemoglobin, which can't carry oxygen anymore. N₂O doesn't directly alter hemoglobin, its role in CTB is to make low partial pressure of oxygen in the lungs, leading to a lack of oxygen in the bloodstream. Transportation of N₂O to the tissues (responsible for producing the dissociative and anesthetic effects) is done via dissolving it in the blood plasma.
Kansas, US. Police were dispatched to an apartment complex at the request of a resident, who advised them that he had discovered his roommate on his bed dead
www.hermantheshocker.com
Research on the effect of N₂O on hypercapnic response:
N2o in the form of whippits and smaller containers , can they be used to force unconsciousness to assist in other forms of ctb? Such as forcing early unconsciousness for fsh or maybe even Co methods?
I'm just curious if it can be using in such a manner.
Yes, absolutely. I had originally planned to use it this way. Actually, I have no idea why people continually take the risk that any one method will be perfect and deliver ctb.
In actuality, it's a very easy problem to solve. If you combine N2O and a plastic bag to anything that will cause loss of consciousness, that's all that is necessary. As long as you pass out, a simple plastic bag will insure there is zero percent chance of survival. Xanax or other benzos/opioids are rarely lethal by themselves, but if it's combined with, let's say a 13 gallon trash bag, there is no possibility for survival.
The trick is to seal the bag just before you lose consciousness, as you don't want any co2 buildup and the ensuing panic response. By using something a bit bigger than a grocery bag for example, it will allow me to breathe normally for about an hour before any distress is noticed. This would give you enough time to slip into deep unconsciousness from whatever drug you took. An OD of something like Xanax or Valium will most certainly cause loss of consciousness. Even if I had SN - no way I'm chugging down 20g of that stuff, with or without an antiemetic protocol, as many still experience significant issues even though they took meto. Even a small amount of SN will cause loss of consciousness. I had a friend here who only took 4g of SN, and when the drowsiness started to come on, he simply slipped a plastic bag over his head. No vomiting (he had no antiemetics or anything else), and very little discomfort. After about 25 minutes I never heard from him again (RIP UltimateTrip).
I had thought about possibly taking N2O while having a noose over my neck in the very beginning before myself and some others developed a simple cuff device similar to the KRA Cuff. To clarify, this is not a blood pressure cuff - those only wrap around the entire neck, which means too much uncomfortable and painful pressure on the airway.
So what I'm doing now is combining the cuff device (just a ratchet strap and 2 air shims) with a plastic bag filled with N2O. Arterial compression, such as applied to the carotid arteries, only blocks about 80% of the blood supply to the brain - while this is more than enough to ctb, unfortunately I'm a worry wart and don't want to take any chances that I miraculously survive from some small trickle of blood flow that keeps me alive, but just barely (ie., as a vegetable).
Combining the 2 methods insures that the limited amount of blood making it to the brain after carotid occlusion, that blood will be carrying next to zero oxygen given I'm breathing in N2O and it's interfering with the blood's ability to carry that oxygen.
N20 also has been shown to attenuate the hypercapnic response (too much co2), so for people who are worried about that, it's really not an issue. Plenty case reports can be found of mostly accidental, with some as suicides, where people were simply inhaling N2O from a sealed plastic bag over their heads. Most of these people were just trying to get high, not ctb, so if the hypercapnic panic set in, as so many people are afraid it will, they could have easily removed the bag and survived. It's actually not really a risk at all - even if it happens, you are perfectly free to pull the bag off of your head and back out.
I don't see any way for someone to survive with such a drastic drop in both oxygen and glucose (brain fuel). And that's what I need - one and done. A failed attempt is unfathomable for me, so I've spent over a year researching, ironing out all of the detail and variables etc.
Yes, absolutely. I had originally planned to use it this way. Actually, I have no idea why people continually take the risk that any one method will be perfect and deliver ctb.
In actuality, it's a very easy problem to solve. If you combine N2O and a plastic bag to anything that will cause loss of consciousness, that's all that is necessary. As long as you pass out, a simple plastic bag will insure there is zero percent chance of survival. Xanax or other benzos/opioids are rarely lethal by themselves, but if it's combined with, let's say a 13 gallon trash bag, there is no possibility for survival.
The trick is to seal the bag just before you lose consciousness, as you don't want any co2 buildup and the ensuing panic response. By using something a bit bigger than a grocery bag for example, it will allow me to breathe normally for about an hour before any distress is noticed. This would give you enough time to slip into deep unconsciousness from whatever drug you took. An OD of something like Xanax or Valium will most certainly cause loss of consciousness. Even if I had SN - no way I'm chugging down 20g of that stuff, with or without an antiemetic protocol, as many still experience significant issues even though they took meto. Even a small amount of SN will cause loss of consciousness. I had a friend here who only took 4g of SN, and when the drowsiness started to come on, he simply slipped a plastic bag over his head. No vomiting (he had no antiemetics or anything else), and very little discomfort. After about 25 minutes I never heard from him again (RIP UltimateTrip).
I had thought about possibly taking N2O while having a noose over my neck in the very beginning before myself and some others developed a simple cuff device similar to the KRA Cuff. To clarify, this is not a blood pressure cuff - those only wrap around the entire neck, which means too much uncomfortable and painful pressure on the airway.
So what I'm doing now is combining the cuff device (just a ratchet strap and 2 air shims) with a plastic bag filled with N2O. Arterial compression, such as applied to the carotid arteries, only blocks about 80% of the blood supply to the brain - while this is more than enough to ctb, unfortunately I'm a worry wart and don't want to take any chances that I miraculously survive from some small trickle of blood flow that keeps me alive, but just barely (ie., as a vegetable).
Combining the 2 methods insures that the limited amount of blood making it to the brain after carotid occlusion, that blood will be carrying next to zero oxygen given I'm breathing in N2O and it's interfering with the blood's ability to carry that oxygen.
N20 also has been shown to attenuate the hypercapnic response (too much co2), so for people who are worried about that, it's really not an issue. Plenty case reports can be found of mostly accidental, with some as suicides, where people were simply inhaling N2O from a sealed plastic bag over their heads. Most of these people were just trying to get high, not ctb, so if the hypercapnic panic set in, as so many people are afraid it will, they could have easily removed the bag and survived. It's actually not really a risk at all - even if it happens, you are perfectly free to pull the bag off of your head and back out.
I don't see any way for someone to survive with such a drastic drop in both oxygen and glucose (brain fuel). And that's what I need - one and done. A failed attempt is unfathomable for me, so I've spent over a year researching, ironing out all of the detail and variables etc.
Thank you for your reply. I'm not here to judge anyone method to CTB, but to me it seems that a continuous flow should be safer and less risk prone with respect to filling a trash bag and taping it onto the head. Yes, the tools would be more difficult to acquire, but once set up correctly, there would not be the risk of leaking gas from the bag while taping it and there would be room for CO2 to exit from the bag and not to trigger hypercapnic response.
Also, do you have some data/article/report about losing consciousness by N2O in the past.
No judgment here at all. If you think a continuous flow setup works best, by all means, do whatever is comfortable for you.
I was simply trying to say that because I'm not using a continuous flow like the exit bag method, unfortunately I won't be any help in what the flow rates should be, etc. Obviously, the flow rate is going to be dependent on how big your N2O supply is. It's also going to require an N2O regulator, and the only advice I can offer there is to be careful - the user reviews on Amazon seem to be hit or miss - some people claim the regulators work perfectly as intended, others complain of leaks and having to waste an entire cylinder because the regular wasn't making a good seal or had a leak or something. For that reason, I bought 2 3.3l cylinders and 2 different regulators, just in case I received something that was faulty.
With N2O, I don't think hypercapnia is an issue. For one, N2O has been shown to attenuate the hypercapnic response. Second, when you lose consciousness from cerebral hypoxia, this automatically implies that the brain does not have enough fuel to operate normally. A reflexive response requires that consciousness is regained, and when the brain doesn't have enough oxygen to reinstate consciousness, hypercapnia is a non issue.
Loss of consciousness from lack of oxygen and glucose is just an indicator of a stage before death. As long as a normal oxygen supply is not re-introduced, death follows within 3-4 minutes, and just like hanging, is blood flow is not restored to the brain within 20 minutes there is no possibility to be saved.
You can pm me if you want. I may not be able to answer until after dinner a little later, but you are welcome to send me a private message if you want.
Ah, ok. I had thought of that too (sucking in the plastic bag with your mouth). This is one of the reasons I'm using a kitchen trash bag and not a small one like a grocery bag.
Instead of having the empty space in the bag over my head, I was going to position the empty space in front of my face.
But I like your idea much better. I have a cheapie Amazon o2 mask - that would work perfectly if just worn so I don't suck in the bag. Appreciate that - great idea!
I have looked at garbage bags all day today(yeah unbelievable lol), had a lot of trouble finding a 25gal one with about 3mils thickness. I chose 3 mils to combat gas permeability and also for added strength.
I would have preferred clear ones because I have read clear bags are usually tougher.
I can't believe it was this hard to find a bag.
I'm guessing most bags would work but I do strive for excellence lol.
BTW,the big orange brand is usually heavily scented as are a few other ones.
N₂O is a simple asphyxiant (like helium and nitrogen), which can be used to displace oxygen from the lungs, so you can make very low concentration and partial pressure of oxygen there.
When you breathe normal air, your lungs
take carbon dioxide from the blood and fill their space with this gas, which you then exhale,
take oxygen from their space and saturate the blood with oxygen via binding it to hemoglobin.
Under some unusual conditions, both processes can be inverted. If you inhale carbon dioxide at a high concentration (30% or above), your lungs will saturate the blood with carbon dioxide, which can produce loss of consciousness in a matter of 20 - 30 seconds (even if the concentration of oxygen in the breathed gas mixture is 21 - 70%). On the other hand, if you breathe a gas mixture that contains less than 6% oxygen at the normal atmospheric pressure, your lungs will steal oxygen from hemoglobin in the blood and fill their space with this gas, which you then exhale (similarly to how you normally exhale carbon dioxide). Quick loss of oxygen in the bloodstream leads to quick loss of consciousness.
Loss of oxygen in the bloodstream slows down as the blood oxygen saturation approaches the equilibrium with the current partial pressure of oxygen in the breathed gas mixture. Lower concentrations of oxygen in the lungs' space can produce an equilibrium with lower values of blood oxygen saturation. Once the equilibrium becomes close, farther loss of oxygen in the bloodstream is mostly done via consumption of oxygen by the cells.
So, basically, nitrous oxide can cause death in the same way as inert gases (via hepoxemia leading to hypoxia). Notable differences are: nitrous oxide has additional dissociative and anesthetic effects and can reduce discomfort (should it occur for whatever reason), it has additional sedative effect, and sometimes it can cause diffusion hypoxia.
Diffusion hypoxia appears only when you stop breathing nitrous after inhaling it for minutes and start to breathe normal air, so that N₂O dissolved in blood plasma goes back to the lungs and partially displaces air.
Unlike CO, N₂O has very low toxicity (as long as you mix N₂O with enough oxygen to avoid hypoxia, you'd need to inhale it for days in order to cause significant health issues).
In terms of easiness and duration of recovery after stopped gas administration, I'd place it next to the commonly used inert gases (because of possible diffusion hypoxia):
N₂ ≤ N₂O < CO₂ < H₂S < CO (lower is better)
N₂O is typically stored as liquid under pressure of ~50 atm (depends on the temperature - see the table below)
Temperature
degrees. C.
Vapour Pressure
Bar Abs
—20
18.01
—15
20.83
—10
23.97
—5
27.44
0
31.27
5
35.47
10
40.07
15
45.10
20
50.60
25
56.60
30
63.15
35
70.33
Tcrit 36.42
72.51
If you want to know how much gas you can get at the normal atmospheric pressure, you should look at the mass of N₂O rather than the volume of the container. You can divide the number of grams of N₂O by 2 in order to get an approximate number of liters of the gas you'd get after evaporation and expansion. For example, 8 g of N₂O from a typical culinary charger expands to approximately 4 liters of gas under normal pressure. You can evaluate the volume using this online calculator
The normal/standard atmospheric pressure is 760 mmHg (the real pressure may significantly differ at high altitudes).
The molar mass of N₂O is 44.013 g/mol.
The temperature can be assumed to be 0 °C or nearly so (the released gas is cold).
No, the mechanism of action is different. CO binds to hemoglobin, forming carboxyhemoglobin, which can't carry oxygen anymore. N₂O doesn't directly alter hemoglobin, its role in CTB is to make low partial pressure of oxygen in the lungs, leading to a lack of oxygen in the bloodstream. Transportation of N₂O to the tissues (responsible for producing the dissociative and anesthetic effects) is done via dissolving it in the blood plasma.
Some people died from inhaling nitrous without maintaining constant flow and even without securing the bag at all.
Hypercapnic response shouldn't be an issue when you're in a coma.
Kansas, US. Police were dispatched to an apartment complex at the request of a resident, who advised them that he had discovered his roommate on his bed dead
www.hermantheshocker.com
Research on the effect of N₂O on hypercapnic response:
Thank you so much for your detailed explanation and your time, I really appreciate it.
So I would need a full N2O atmosphere around my head for some time to deprive my body of oxygen and CTB, as it works for N2 and other inert gasses.
It's also going to require an N2O regulator, and the only advice I can offer there is to be careful - the user reviews on Amazon seem to be hit or miss - some people claim the regulators work perfectly as intended, others complain of leaks and having to waste an entire cylinder because the regular wasn't making a good seal or had a leak or something. For that reason, I bought 2 3.3l cylinders and 2 different regulators, just in case I received something that was faulty.
Thank you for your warning. As of now I've looked only into N2 cylinders and regulators so I'm not aware of common issues about N2O equipment, but I'll definitely search for more info.
So what I'm doing now is combining the cuff device (just a ratchet strap and 2 air shims) with a plastic bag filled with N2O. Arterial compression, such as applied to the carotid arteries, only blocks about 80% of the blood supply to the brain - while this is more than enough to ctb
It seems you're combining night-night with N2O anesthesia and asphyxia by lack of oxygen in the bag, right? If so, given that a lot of people have troubles compressing the carotid via ratchet (I read a lot of complaints in the night-night megathread), wouldn't it be risky to try to tighten the ratchet when you're about to pass out from N2O? It would require not only timing and control of muscles in an altered state, but also precision (and maybe luck) in having the correct positioning and pressure applied to the carotids. Of course there would also be asphyxiation by lack of oxygen in the lungs, but I'm not sure how to tape a pre-filled bag onto my head without it leaking.
I've never tried the night-night and I don't know if air shims make it easier or if you've already tried and managed to pass out consistently from your setup, if so, discard my observation. Again, not to judge or critique, they're just some potential issues that popped in my mind when thinking about your setup that I was willing to share because I don't want to fail my attempt too, and you've been really kind and patient explaining everything to me.
I wish you all the best.
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