It all leads back here, always.

[406blue]

Do you know of a book called 'the ragged trousered philanthoprist'? I can't remember the author but it was effectively the first serious novel published in the uk by a real worker, and not a member of the educated elite. It's an amazing read, describing the working lives of people in the building industry at that point in history, i think the early 1900s. At some point he describes the idea of killing himself and his family by CO from their charcoal heater , which first brought the idea to me about 15 years ago as a possibility, long before it became mainstream.

 

[windingdown]

Glad you liked the post, and I agree a hundred percent what you wrote. Particularly "the despair and weakness we feel not even being able to end our missery." It's exactly this fear that drives us to desperation, we become frantic and claustrophobic, and instead of spending our time on things which could improve our situation we are frantically searching a means to get out. I felt like that a few months ago, I was absolutely desperate and despite having contemplated suicide for about six years, I realised that I didn't actually know how to. This added to the desperation, I was reading up all on the bridges and cliffs in England, and just finding that some had barriers erected, cliffs like beachy head were constantly patrolled and that even there jumpers aren't always killed but permanently maimed by the protruding rocks, and even more gruesome and unpredictable measures like jumping in front of a train were blocked by seeing many workers on the line and that the train was going at a markedly reduced speed, not to mention the countless CCTV cameras and the £1000 fine for trespassing.

It is this desperation that makes us feel trapped, and that sensation only worsens an already bad situation. The whole time was spent searching for a way out rather than a way to stay in, just like any animal would react when trapped. Self-preservation is innate to us, but so too is the desire to escape from perceived danger such as fire and being stuck in a trap. I went to the doctor for some sleeping meds and thought, what if instead of asking for meds I could ask for a lethal injection? And that he could book me in at 4pm and the process would only take a few seconds, but if I couldn't make it I could come another day. How much relief would I have felt, how much weight would have been taken off my mind? I probably wouldn't have gone back at 4pm, but at least I would have known I could go at any time.

I'm convinced that these archaic laws only add to the misery and suffering and contribute to rash decision making, especially in the young. And for adults, who have decided rationally that they want out then the final leg wouldn't be filled with anxiety and desperation but of peace and tranquility. They would still do it, but at the time that suits them rather than at that tiny window of opportunity. Many young suicides are rash, many older suicides are rational, but what drives each and every one of us is that once we see a chance we grab it, because we know it could be the only opportunity we have. Thus few of us die free from pain and anxiety, and even far fewer at the time that they want, and some of the most unfortunate don't even make it, and don't die but are permanently maimed or left like a vegetable.

Yes. I could have written all of this. What society really needs is for people like us to stay alive and advance these ideas, committing to progress in this area over the long haul. But society loses people like us - the ones who think deeply about death and dying and suicide, the quandary of existence, because we seek our escape button early. It used to be that in England (and elsewhere), a person who suicided was declared insane, and (in response to the then-criminal act), his/her property seized. Archaic. Today, archaic is precisely what you've articulated here - the lack of autonomy. We can do so, so much better. If I had the strength to stay alive, I would commit myself to this work. It matters, for every person.

What you wrote about being trapped also reminds me of this quote by the writer David Foster Wallace:

"The so-called 'psychotically depressed' person who tries to kill herself doesn't do so out of quote 'hopelessness' or any abstract conviction that life's assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire's flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It's not desiring the fall; it's terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling 'Don't!' and 'Hang on!', can understand the jump. Not really. You'd have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling."

 

[Shay]

Yes. I could have written all of this. What society really needs is for people like us to stay alive and advance these ideas, committing to progress in this area over the long haul. But society loses people like us - the ones who think deeply about death and dying and suicide, the quandary of existence, because we seek our escape button early. It used to be that in England (and elsewhere), a person who suicided was declared insane, and (in response to the then-criminal act), his/her property seized. Archaic. Today, archaic is precisely what you've articulated here - the lack of autonomy. We can do so, so much better. If I had the strength to stay alive, I would commit myself to this work. It matters, for every person.

What you wrote about being trapped also reminds me of this quote by the writer David Foster Wallace:

"The so-called 'psychotically depressed' person who tries to kill herself doesn't do so out of quote 'hopelessness' or any abstract conviction that life's assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire's flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It's not desiring the fall; it's terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling 'Don't!' and 'Hang on!', can understand the jump. Not really. You'd have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling."

Completely agree. It is the never ending pain that pushes me. There's no escape anymore. I feel trapped.

 

[windingdown]

I've been there before. You are right. It's quite easy to lose everything.

I lost everything last year due to mental illness, in the blink of an eye. All the things I'd been working for and building up to for a decade. Prior to that, I'd had a Midas touch; everything always worked out well for me. So I had no concept of the fragility of existence. Being confronted with that fragility, intimately, was part of what made me suicidal. I was like, no way. I can't do this - this existence where everything good can fall apart so quickly and easily, where nothing I care about is secure. And once you see that fragility, you can't unsee it. It hovers over your experience, defying every metaphysical platitude about karma, the rhyme and reason of the universe.

 

[406blue]

But why is it that we want to talk to other people about it in places like this. This psychology about death and suicide is very interesting, more interesting than method after we have researched it for a while and have formulated a reasonable plan that suits our character or place in life. There are threads about the philosophy of suicide going back to greek times in this forum and attitudes in current society about which we can agree. The taboo that's involved in suicide goes back a long way.

I think in china it was seen as a way of exacting punishment on your enemies, as a suicide would guarantee you'd be able to haunt them. You just have to look on wikipedia under religious views on suicide to see the disparity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_suicide

It's a massive read, just interesting to put what we are contemplating into perspective if anyone's keen on that kind of thing and the fragility of existence as perceived by others. We are part of a greater humanity. We have our own perspective and reading all that doesn't change my mind, but until we die i think we remain inquisitive and interactive.

 

[windingdown]

But why is it that we want to talk to other people about it in places like this. This psychology about death and suicide is very interesting, more interesting than method after we have researched it for a while and have formulated a reasonable plan that suits our character or place in life.

Personally,

(a) it is really all I think about lately - it occupies my mind as I wait to ctb;
(b) I have to do something with my time, and there is little I care to do these days, but this is interesting enough to me to prompt my participation.

The ideal for me, really, would be to stay alive, and contribute to this ancient conversation on suicide (as you mentioned I believe, often repressed - or at least marginalized). But I haven't the stamina for that.

 

[406blue]

Personally,

(a) it is really all I think about lately - it occupies my mind as I wait to ctb;
(b) I have to do something with my time, and there is little I care to do these days, but this is interesting enough to me to prompt my participation.

The ideal for me, really, would be to stay alive, and contribute to this ancient conversation on suicide (as you mentioned I believe, often repressed - or at least marginalized). But I haven't the stamina for that.

No matter how low you feel, if someone asks how you are you say 'fine, ty'. Why is this. And despite it being obvious that you're not fine, they say 'good, so am i', even if it's clear they aren't either. Not being 'fine' is socially non acceptable because people don't want to engage with their own lack of 'fineness', let alone yours. And if they were to say 'actually, i'm not well at all', very few people are able to engage with that because although we like to think we have empathy, we all view things through the unique prism of our own perspective. It's true even in here, where we have a common kind of empathy. A good friend of mine posted me an email recently asking how i was, who lives abroad. I decided to reply in detail that i wasn't great and her reply barely mentioned it. This didn't surprise me really.

The reason i'm saying this is because of the discussion about how suicide and depression isn't part of normal discourse and certainly needs more attention. Suicidal people are in the best place to initiate something but in the worst position to do so.

 

[bigj75]

I lost everything last year due to mental illness, in the blink of an eye. All the things I'd been working for and building up to for a decade. Prior to that, I'd had a Midas touch; everything always worked out well for me. So I had no concept of the fragility of existence. Being confronted with that fragility, intimately, was part of what made me suicidal. I was like, no way. I can't do this - this existence where everything good can fall apart so quickly and easily, where nothing I care about is secure. And once you see that fragility, you can't unsee it. It hovers over your experience, defying every metaphysical platitude about karma, the rhyme and reason of the universe.

Holy shit i can't believe how much I relate to this. I had it all. Good looks, athlete, etc. I had the touch aswell but its gone. I have no confidence anymore. It's like the universe is playing a cruel joke on me. To have everything I could ever want then it all gets taken away. It's like whats the point of the universe allowing me to have the good things in life and to be content if I can't even get to keep it.

 

[406blue]

Holy shit i can't believe how much I relate to this. I had it all. Good looks, athlete, etc. I had the touch aswell but its gone. I have no confidence anymore. It's like the universe is playing a cruel joke on me. To have everything I could ever want then it all gets taken away. It's like whats the point of the universe allowing me to have the good things in life and to be content if I can't even get to keep it.

Someone told me recently that it's the universal way of telling us not to be attached to anything. I think i told them to fuck off.

 

[bigj75]

Someone told me recently that it's the universal way of telling us not to be attached to anything. I think i told them to fuck off.

Not to beat attached to anything? That's tht hugest load of shit. Lol

Nobody is completely detached from everything.

 

[406blue]

It seems like it shouldn't be that difficult to end it all, but why can't i just do it already? It'd be nice if i could just make a decision here, whether or not to live and to hold fast to my choice, but i get carried away by the moment. i can even trick myself into thinking i'm truly happy sometimes but it never lasts, nothing ever lasts.

the more i think of ending it all the less i wanna work to make things better. the less i try to make things better the worse i feel. and the worse i feel the more i wanna end it all; but that's old news at this point.

i'm so stupidly stuck right now: i don't want to kill myself just yet but i don't think i'm capable of 'living' a real life either. so i just wait... for nothing really. nothing's changing and i'm just waiting stupidly for some sort of miracle or just the ultimate inevitable.

i'm stuck in an infinite limbo where all the doors lead back to where i started, so why bother?... and yet i do keep bothering... fuck.

lol, does anybody else know what the heck i'm talking about? this is really just a mindless ramble.

Nothing ever lasts, be it happiness or contentment or misery or life itself. It's not a mindless ramble, as you can tell from the number of people who liked it and you expressed the dilemma well. There are numerous accounts of people in hopeless positions who cling to life, especially memoirs of concentration camp survivors. In particular a book called 'man's search for meaning' by victor frankl, who survived such a place. What they all seem to say is that once you lost the will to live, the inner flame, you were finished.

 

[windingdown]

Someone told me recently that it's the universal way of telling us not to be attached to anything. I think i told them to fuck off.

That idea is central to the Buddhist perspective. To me, it's a human way of coping with shitness. 'Things humans tell themselves to try to be fine when things are not fine.' But that is also religion generally. I call these things 'coping frameworks'. They change nothing (circumstantially); they help people cope, when there's little or nothing they can do about things. 'Well, we're here. Better find a way to get through it.'

 

[windingdown]

Things do indeed always lead back here, i.e. the will to get out of here. Feeling desperate today to leave; am so through, and ready. Where is that lethal injection? Circumstances/timing are never right, there's always something getting in the way. (mainly family.) As if the courage part weren't enough to have to square with.

 

[406blue]

That idea is central to the Buddhist perspective. To me, it's a human way of coping with shitness. 'Things humans tell themselves to try to be fine when things are not fine.' But that is also religion generally. I call these things 'coping frameworks'. They change nothing (circumstantially); they help people cope, when there's little or nothing they can do about things. 'Well, we're here. Better find a way to get through it.'

It's a mind drug but the nicest ideas. Buddhist people are the most human humans i have ever met. I think most people here have tried every way they can to feel okay be it chemically or otherwise. I read a million books about zen and buddhism, taken the meds, tried to be positive, travelled, changed jobs, homes and countries to find peace. I wouldn't have given a shit which one worked or made any difference, but none have for any length of time. But it was at least worth the try in order to get to the end of the line with a sense that you'd done your best. The thread was that it all leads back to here and it does, but it's what you can do in between.

 

[ChaosDergon]

Its the endless circle. Going in a loop, but in the end you want to die. You can jump from current loop to another, which changes several factors of the journey around but in the end its the same you will cross the same points. No matter what you do or try it seems to be the same result even if there are different factors. So you eventually make the choice to try again with another circle or you don't aim for another circle and just fall into the abyss of oblivion and cease to exist.

 

[windingdown]

It's a mind drug but the nicest ideas. Buddhist people are the most human humans i have ever met. I think most people here have tried every way they can to feel okay be it chemically or otherwise. I read a million books about zen and buddhism, taken the meds, tried to be positive, travelled, changed jobs, homes and countries to find peace. I wouldn't have given a shit which one worked or made any difference, but none have for any length of time. But it was at least worth the try in order to get to the end of the line with a sense that you'd done your best. The thread was that it all leads back to here and it does, but it's what you can do in between.

I agree with this. Buddhist thinking helped me for a while - I got a lot out of A Path With Heart by Jack Kornfield, for example, on my university therapist's recommendation. I went to church last year for a while, for the first time in 13 years. I've been through the gamut of mental health services and medications for the past 1 1/2 years, and don't have any inherently negative opinion of the psychiatric establishment - it's treated me well.

But it is just that, that for some people, things persist in leading here. It's good to try, to pursue available options; and then there remains the sorrow, for me, that these things cannot save me from my human experience.