Discussion Is the society socialism (+ capitalism discussion)?

[DoNotLet2]

Hello
It is just my opinion and I wanna ask a few questions.
First of all I'm not an expert in economy barely a student. Rich people I listen to define capitalism as a system with low government interposing and high competition meaning there must be always a few enterprises competing to satisfy the customer's needs whatever they are. Meaning less than 4 companies (there should be more though from what I know) in one field and we're not talking about capitalism. The government only intervenes when the competition is in danger. The rich people also say there can't be clear capitalism because the government will always intervene. You can't sell drugs, you have to pay higher or lower taxes. So there can be only partial capitalism which is high competition and low interposing.

But there other people are defining capitalism as lack of social support like the dole or state hospitals. And I'm asking what is the right definition of the capitalism?

Ok so, main topic.
Are the underprivileged people, who really do suffer, the people who work for the entire society? I mean men work for the women and they lack privileges, don't they? They can't cry and they are abused in other ways I can't describe, I'm not a man. The women are allowed to cry, to be sad, to not feel like working but not all. When a woman doesn't work and lives thanks to her man it's fine. Is it fine when a man doesn't work and lives thanks to his woman?
I have a little bit higher intelligence than normal people and I'm not favored at school and society even though I'm a woman. Because I can deal with things right? I noticed less intelligent people might have it easier and be more indulged if they look poor and helpless.
Hm. People worry about disabled one's right when they look disabled enough. Because when somebody isn't disabled they can work for themselves?
I'm autistic. I never had autistic privileges because I'm not autistic enough, am I? I am not bothered by stimulus such as too much light or smell. I see so many autistic people who are severely disabled from autism and they do have privileges. But I do not and I have problems when I need clear information because people don't want to give me it. I was even discriminated by autistic non suicidal community. When I was saying something rude, they were mad at me, but when they were saying something rude they were like "we are severely autistic we can".

Hm. I came to the conclusion. The underprivileged people are the people who can work for themselves. The people who are privileged and can order around are people who are weak and poor. Poor meaning looking helpless.

So I just want to discuss those 2 topics. Because I think we live in a society that is like socialism. And I also think we define capitalism badly (capitalism should be defined as constant competition).
Of course I can be totally wrong so let's talk.

 

[Iloveyouall]

Hum I wouldn't have use the term "privileged" here, most of the time the "privileges" you're talking about are the bare minimum. I understand why some people may think the poor and disabled are privileged because everyone has a story like "Hey I know someone who is scamming the social security system, he/she shouldn't deserve so much help" but the reality is that's those particular cases are just one per thousands, the tree hides the forest here. There are plenty people who are in need and nobody gives a shit about them.

Is it fine when a man doesn't work and lives thanks to his woman?

Yes it is.

I never had autistic privileges because I'm not autistic enough, am I?

Mental illness is not considered as it should be in our world. Plenty people suffer and no one notice them.

People worry about disabled one's right when they look disabled enough. Because when somebody isn't disabled they can work for themselves?

Yeah it's something like that under the look of society.

Socialism is capitalism. Most people don't understand what capitalism is. It's not a political system, it's a dynamic of social interactions between humans where the only things that count objectively in the end are exchange and money. When I say money I'm not talking about currency, I'm talking about value. Most of the things we "have" can't be bought in our personal perspective but under the spectrum of capitalism, which is the spectrum of the capitalist society, everything is buyable.

I'm going to try an example here:
Imagine you're a nationalist/patriot however you call it, your country values to you and you would never sell your country but in fact the value you give to your country, the feeling you have toward your country is actually an asset. It has an objective value. Depending on the time period and the place you live in, you'll be either valuable for the society or not, depending on the prerogatives of capitalism itself to reproduce it's own dynamic.

Another example: Democracy is a higher form of capitalist mind domination. In dictatorship, an individual is considered as nothing compared to "the greater good" but in a democracy, every feelings and opinions are actually circulating on the opinion market. In a democracy, people's opinions are products. In a dictatorship, people's opinions value objectively nothing.

The thing is capitalism has no competitor system because every system is the fruit of capitalism.

The rich people also say there can't be clear capitalism because the government will always intervene.

They are right. That's why countries will let place to super ensembles of states like the EU and then those ensembles will then let place to companies. Only after that, capitalism will have no place to find in our minds because every opinions and feelings would be already sold and that's where communism starts. Communism never existed yet, only full capitalism will bring it to life because nothing can actually beat the inertia of the value logic.

 

[DoNotLet2]

When I mean privileged I mean being socially accepted/tolerated, considered valid etc. and being underprivileged as being told by "everyone" "shut up, you don't matter".

I mean I totally don't get why you think capitalism is socialism?

Well I am taught communism did exist.

But you're right, the system is a spectrum it's never/hardly ever clear capitalism or clear socialism.

 

[Final Escape]

As long as the government meddles in the economy in any way, we do not have free market capitalism. The way you know you live under socialism is there is a welfare state (forced redistribution of income), the government controls or meddles in just about every area of the economy and the lives of the citizens. Any taxes you are forced to pay, u really have no idea where it all goes and u don't have a choice about what it supports. It could go to support causes u have no interest in supporting but u have no choice because government is force. Otherwise they will imprison u if u choose not to pay taxes. In a free market there is no taxation and the poor still get help but through private voluntary charity not through theft. We have all the tenets of communist manifesto in place in the US. They brainwash kids in government schools to think its capitalism that causes mass inequality and poverty but really it's socialism/communism policies. It can take a long time for socialism to destroy a country and this is why people don't immediately put it together that it doesn't work. It only works until you have no more productive people to fleece to support all the people on welfare or support of employees where they make their money off the taxes of other people. Democracy doesn't work because there is a conflict of interest in the voting base. How is it ok for some people to impose their will on someone else just because a majority of people decided to vote for X. It's not. Every time we vote they impose a new law or a infringement on the natural rights of someone.

10 Ways the Communist Manifesto has Infiltrated the USA

August 12, 2020. This is why it is so absurd that people think "socialism" would be a radical change for the US. It would be more of the same, a doubling down on every failure you can think of from the last century.

www.thedailybell.com

 

[Iloveyouall]

Capitalism isn't socialism. Socialism is included in capitalism. Everything that is based on value is capitalism, so basically everything is capitalism except love and forgiveness, things that you donate. When I say donate, I mean donate for free, but not just free as no money involved, free as not expecting anything in return. Even bartering is capitalism.
Socialism is just capitalism with welfare.
It's common to say that communism existed but it's not true. States which called themselves communist were as much capitalist as others but their economy was under total control of the state, it was just state capitalism. In real communism, states can't exists, and politics, money, exchanges either.

 

[DoNotLet2]

As long as the government meddles in the economy in any way, we do not have free market capitalism. The way you know you live under socialism is there is a welfare state (forced redistribution of income), the government controls or meddles in just about every area of the economy and the lives of the citizens. Any taxes you are forced to pay, u really have no idea where it all goes and u don't have a choice about what it supports. It could go to support causes u have no interest in supporting but u have no choice because government is force. Otherwise they will imprison u if u choose not to pay taxes. In a free market there is no taxation and the poor still get help but through private voluntary charity not through theft. We have all the tenets of communist manifesto in place in the US. They brainwash kids in government schools to think its capitalism that causes mass inequality and poverty but really it's socialism/communism policies. It can take a long time for socialism to destroy a country and this is why people don't immediately put it together that it doesn't work. It only works until you have no more productive people to fleece to support all the people on welfare or support of employees where they make their money off the taxes of other people. Democracy doesn't work because there is a conflict of interest in the voting base. How is it ok for some people to impose their will on someone else just because a majority of people decided to vote for X. It's not. Every time we vote they impose a new law or a infringement on the natural rights of someone.

10 Ways the Communist Manifesto has Infiltrated the USA

August 12, 2020. This is why it is so absurd that people think "socialism" would be a radical change for the US. It would be more of the same, a doubling down on every failure you can think of from the last century.

www.thedailybell.com

Yes, there is a constant manipulation! The only disadvantage of capitalism I know is that you have to keep working. People are sure that it causes poverty but does it?

Iloveyou all, your opinion is weird for me, but ok.

 

[Final Escape]

Yes, there is a constant manipulation! The only disadvantage of capitalism I know is that you have to keep working. People are sure that it causes poverty but does it?

Iloveyou all, your opinion is weird for me, but ok.

The advantage of capitalism is it increases wealth for everyone even if u are not the most talented or able. So if the money is honest, there is only free voluntary exchanges, this allows much more ability for people to accurately make calculations about retirement and how or where to invest. Which would allow most people to retire fairly young if they choose to. But under a government the money is not honest and because of all the constant unpredictability that this causes most people are not prepared for retirement as a result. It's the regime uncertainty that government causes that makes people feel like they're not sure what they should be doing because they don't get honest information about things. Many people are not well educated young and so we make poor decisions early leaving us fucked in our older years. Socialism is not sustainable that's the real issue. The money eventually runs out. Socialism can't exist without first having generated the extra wealth under free market capitalism for the socialists to be able steal.

 

[DoNotLet2]

Exactly! The government can't use money well. I understand it that way. Companies are vulnerable. They have to be good or be dead. Government won't fail after one, two or ten bad financial decisions.

 

[Final Escape]

Exactly! The government can't use money well. I understand it that way. Companies are vulnerable. They have to be good or be dead. Government won't fail after one, two or ten bad financial decisions.

Large corporations can't exist without government protection so that's another thing you would not see in a free market. There would still be really successful people and companies but because they would not have government protection most businesses could only grow so big and many businesses would go under eventually but there would constantly be knew ones sprouting up because it would be easier to start a business in a free market. There would be no monopolies like there is now.

 

[Sensei]

Ir's actually perfectly possible to live in a completely free market today. All you need to do is to buy a ticket to Somalia.

 

[Final Escape]

Ir's actually perfectly possible to live in a completely free market today. All you need to do is to buy a ticket to Somalia.

Or we all would have to stand up to government like everybody, and stop it forever lol! Like literally everyone would have to just decide this has gone too fucking far. No more federal reserve, no more cops, no more jail, no more regulations and too many laws, no more shitty gov school, lol! I don't need an ID just to do things, I don't want to get a drivers license just so I can drive, I don't want to pay for the right to live or be raped for extreme high rent just to have a place to be that isn't jail or on the street. Yea the reason it's more free there is because there's nothing to steal most pple are poor but if the people there were creating all kinds of prosperity the parasites would quickly move there to kill the host lol!

 

[Sensei]

Or we all would have to stand up to government like everybody, and stop it forever lol! Like literally everyone would have to just decide this has gone too fucking far. No more federal reserve, no more cops, no more jail, no more regulations and too many laws, no more shitty gov school, lol! I don't need an ID just to do things, I don't want to get a drivers license just so I can drive, I don't want to pay for the right to live or be raped for extreme high rent just to have a place to be that isn't jail or on the street. Yea the reason it's more free there is because there's nothing to steal most pple are poor but if the people there were creating all kinds of prosperity the parasites would quickly move there to kill the host lol!

No more federal reserves? You do know that private banks create most money today, not the federal reserve? No more cops or jails? I'm sure no well-armed street gangs would take advantage of such a situation. Children and elders can definitely stand up against them. Driving without a driving license? It's of course a good thing to have people who don't know how to drive a car on the roads. No ID? Yes, illegal mass immigration and wide-spread fraud are nice.

 

[Final Escape]

No more federal reserves? You do know that private banks create most money today, not the federal reserve? No more cops or jails? I'm sure no well-armed street gangs would take advantage of such a situation. Children and elders can definitely stand up against them. Driving without a driving license? It's of course a good thing to have people who don't know how to drive a car on the roads. No ID? Yes, illegal mass immigration and wide-spread fraud are nice.

People could drive cars before the government started the whole ID licensing shit. People drove before that. You really don't need to be a certain age to buy drugs kids get access regardless of the laws they try to pass. I don't think u are able to conceptualize what real freedom means because well not everyone can. Most people have only known what it's like to live under heavy regulations and too many laws like we have now. Most people would be armed and know how to shoot a gun in the absence of cops so it would actually be quite safe bc most pple would carry a gun or own one. But the government wants to disarm most of us but then arm the cops so we are easier to control.

 

[Iloveyouall]

Ir's actually perfectly possible to live in a completely free market today. All you need to do is to buy a ticket to Somalia.

so trve but there is a Kenyan intervention since 2 years or so there, it's interfering. They're still thinking that securing the horn of Africa is useful. Geniuses xD

Iloveyou all, your opinion is weird for me, but ok.

How is it weird to you ?

I'm sorry I don't want to sound like I'm lecturing anyone but still believing that governments have any kind of power over companies is a very naïve concept to me.
Money rules far beyond our minds.

 

[DoNotLet2]

If you're an American and you have never lived in a socialistic country such as Poland, China or North Korea, you shouldn't vote for socialism. Unless you're an expert.

Somalia, lol. It's a totally foreign culture and even despite free market it would be hell to live there. Because I was up brought in a Western culture.

I mean if the company was somehow perfect then well. But if the company sells shit and has monopoly then something is wrong. It's like government + monopolies cooperation.

 

[Apathy79]

The basic building block of capitalism is equality of opportunity. The goal is to make sure everyone has a chance in life. Some people will take it and become wildly successful and others will fail. For those we bring in a social safety net, to ensure they can still survive. The traditional push-pull between right and left wing parties is on the extent of that safety net or more specifically the extent to which increasing it decreases the incentive to work.

The basic building block of socialism is equality of outcomes. It's formed from the belief that the rich/certain powerful groups tend to exploit the poor/certain groups without power, and the only way to prevent that is to remove classes and treat/pay everyone the same. But without the constant incentive that harder or more innovative work can lead to greater rewards, people tend to just do the minimum required to get paid, or nothing at all if that qualifies. And the societies quickly degrade, in the cases of Mao and Stalin, or more recently Maduro, to the point of mass starvation of millions. Communism takes this to a whole new level by removing money and private property altogether, having the government own everything and dole it out in equal shares. Ultimately the government gets all the spoils and the rest of the population dies. That tends to only exist in small communities like Jonestown rather than entire countries, although North Korea gets reasonably close.

Capitalism is the right system and equality of opportunity the right goal - the countries that have adopted it have gotten exponentially richer in the last 100 years - I think the GDP per person in the US has increased 8x (unevenly distributed but the rising tide still lifts all boats), while those that haven't have fallen away. But it needs plenty of modification from it's purest form in order to function. It needs to cater for those for which opportunities aren't equal, which includes many people here, and for those whose skills, while useful to society, aren't well rewarded in a capitalist economy, and for those who had the opportunities but failed to convert them, and also for those who were exploited. And it needs to cater for them in a way that someone like me can't work the system, play victim, avoid work and get the same rewards. Because that group has a habit of growing exponentially when the door is left open and the results are devastating to everyone.

So circling back to your point more specifically - people who look helpless are really the privileged ones because they get money for nothing. I think in many of those cases, what those people are suffering with is severe enough that they would jump at the chance to work for money if they had the capacity. They've been dealt a bad hand and deserve to be cared for. The ones who pretend to be like that but aren't really, can often con the system into thinking they are and reap the same benefits - it's the government's role to stamp them out as best they can without affecting those who genuinely need it. It's not an enviable task as it can be quite difficult. And none of this is black or white either, as in your case where there are degrees of severity of autism and yours isn't deemed bad enough to qualify. I don't have the answer, I'm not sure anyone does, but I think the best we can do is tweak the current system, which I think is much closer to capitalism (with modifications but no one would want it without) than socialism.

 

[Sensei]

People could drive cars before the government started the whole ID licensing shit. People drove before that.

Driving licenses are around 100 years old in your country. Back then, there were less cars on the roads. Besides, how do you know there weren't more accidents back then? Have you researched it?

You really don't need to be a certain age to buy drugs kids get access regardless of the laws they try to pass.

I don't think u are able to conceptualize what real freedom means because well not everyone can. Most people have only known what it's like to live under heavy regulations and too many laws like we have now.

In the society you propose, the power will be moved to corporations and street gangs, and they won't care about checks and balances or being fair or even being civilized. (Admittedly, there might not be any corporations as the economy will collapse when no one guarantess the right to own property anymore.) Essentially, you're suggesting a return to slavery.

Most people would be armed and know how to shoot a gun in the absence of cops so it would actually be quite safe bc most pple would carry a gun or own one. But the government wants to disarm most of us but then arm the cops so we are easier to control.

So, 80-year-old women will be able to protect themselves against gangs with assualt rifles? People will enjoy having to constantly be vigilant in their homes as maniacs who might have assualt rilfes may be walking on the streets outside their houses at any time? You like the idea that every time you walk down the street you have to assume that someone who handles a gun better than you might shoot you and get awav with it? Sounds like Utopia.

The basic building block of capitalism is equality of opportunity. The goal is to make sure everyone has a chance in life. Some people will take it and become wildly successful and others will fail. For those we bring in a social safety net, to ensure they can still survive. The traditional push-pull between right and left wing parties is on the extent of that safety net or more specifically the extent to which increasing it decreases the incentive to work.

I can't tell if you're joking or are being serious here. My appologies if you're joking. Are you seriously saying that someone born on the street and someone born into a mulit-billionaire family will have "eaqulity of opportunity" in a capitalist society? As wealth means power in a capitalist society, you're basically in favour of a medieval system where power is inherited.

The basic building block of socialism is equality of outcomes.

What do you base this on? Socialists almost invariably argue for equality of rights and opportunity, but not equality of endowment.

It's formed from the belief that the rich/certain powerful groups tend to exploit the poor/certain groups without power, and the only way to prevent that is to remove classes and treat/pay everyone the same.

Treat/pay everyone the same? What do you base this on?

But without the constant incentive that harder or more innovative work can lead to greater rewards, people tend to just do the minimum required to get paid, or nothing at all if that qualifies. And the societies quickly degrade.

This is obviously totally incorrect, because otherwise no one would choose to become a police officer, firefighter, nurse, or teacher, but chosen better paid jobs instead. .

in the cases of Mao and Stalin, or more recently Maduro, to the point of mass starvation of millions.

You do know that there are santions on Venezuela, including on food? As for Mao or Stalin, it's very questionable if they were socialists, to say the very least..

Communism takes this to a whole new level by removing money and private property altogether, having the government own everything and dole it out in equal shares. Ultimately the government gets all the spoils and the rest of the population dies. That tends to only exist in small communities like Jonestown rather than entire countries, although North Korea gets reasonably close.

Take the time to read a book about basic political theory or simply a communist manifesto. The goal of communism is to dissolve the state, not strenghten it. It should also be noted that, as far as I know, no country has ever claimed to be communist.

Capitalism is the right system and equality of opportunity the right goal - the countries that have adopted it have gotten exponentially richer in the last 100 years - I think the GDP per person in the US has increased 8x (unevenly distributed but the rising tide still lifts all boats), while those that haven't have fallen away.

In most, if not all cases, the government has played an active role. Notice that the growth in China is phenomenal. In a larger perspective, countries which adopted slavery and feudalism were also highly successful. At some point, it's time to move on and evolve.

But it needs plenty of modification from it's purest form in order to function. It needs to cater for those for which opportunities aren't equal, which includes many people here, and for those whose skills, while useful to society, aren't well rewarded in a capitalist economy, and for those who had the opportunities but failed to convert them, and also for those who were exploited. And it needs to cater for them in a way that someone like me can't work the system, play victim, avoid work and get the same rewards. Because that group has a habit of growing exponentially when the door is left open and the results are devastating to everyone.

So circling back to your point more specifically - people who look helpless are really the privileged ones because they get money for nothing. I think in many of those cases, what those people are suffering with is severe enough that they would jump at the chance to work for money if they had the capacity. They've been dealt a bad hand and deserve to be cared for. The ones who pretend to be like that but aren't really, can often con the system into thinking they are and reap the same benefits - it's the government's role to stamp them out as best they can without affecting those who genuinely need it. It's not an enviable task as it can be quite difficult. And none of this is black or white either, as in your case where there are degrees of severity of autism and yours isn't deemed bad enough to qualify. I don't have the answer,

Agreed.

I'm not sure anyone does, but I think the best we can do is tweak the current system, which I think is much closer to capitalism (with modifications but no one would want it without) than socialism.

Perhaps.