Discussion Is suicide part of nature or just a product of a conscious mind?

[CP3GH]

Hi all,

I have heard that animals usually do not commit suicide and just think about how to live and survive. If we as humans are vested with the "gift" of consciousness, does it make us less part of nature?

What are you thoughts? Have you ever heard of animals committing suicide or it is reserved for the human plagued mind? Does suicide make us less natural beings?

 

[difficvltmachineryy]

Hi all,

I have heard that animals usually do not commit suicide and just think about how to live and survive. If we as humans are vested with the "gift" of consciousness, does it make us less part of nature?

What are you thoughts? Have you ever heard of animals committing suicide or it is reserved for the human plagued mind? Does suicide make us less natural beings?

I think i have heard of animals committing suicide, tho i cant recall it. When it comes to human beings, i do not think there is such thing as "human nature" as everything is influenced by material conditions, including our behavior and thinking

 

[rest2love]

Suicide is completely artificial and man made. There has never been a recorded case of a human pre society or a non human animal killing themselves intentionally because they didn't want to live anymore.

I think i have heard of animals committing suicide, tho i cant recall it. When it comes to human beings, i do not think there is such thing as "human nature" as everything is influenced by material conditions, including our behavior and thinking

Humans are animals, and all animals have an instinct. You knew how to live and survive from birth because of that instinct.

 

[lpdsvm]

At least for me I think it is a response to unfairness. I will use it when I start to experience it heavily.

 

[ZwartHartje]

First off: ALL animals are conscious. The word itself comes from Latin "anima" which means spirit. Animals are all creatures that are animated with a spirit.

And yes, under extreme conditions they do commit suicide, or attempt to. It's known of orcas kept in amusement parks and such. Just like humans, some do it and some don't, it depends on the personality. There was a famous orca named Lolita who was incarcerated for half a century at Miami Seaquarium until she died a year or two ago.
If I remember right it was her male companion who killed himself long ago by slamming himself head first into the wall of the pool, I think repeatedly, until he died.

I've cried about their fate a lot. Humans are evil.

 

[LastDayOnEarth]

Some animals commit soft suicide, like refusing food or water. And some dogs have killed themselves by jumping off bridges but it's not as common in the animal world in general.

I guess the only reason we're the only species that kills themselves is because we know how to, like for example an animal can never figure out how to hang itself

 

[neverexistedd]

 

[if_i_make_it]

I don't think this has so much to do with 'consciousness' per se, but our intelligence and environment, yes. We can create novel solutions and have access to so much information. We also observe depression the most in animals in captivity, where their basic needs are met without the same effort and engagement that would be required of them in the wild, and that has a negative effect on their central nervous system and self regulation. Sometimes these animals will engage in self injurious behavior, or refuse food or water.

 

[CP3GH]

In a way the environment we have created to survive with our minds are the very same environment and minds that end us?

 

[rest2love]

Some animals commit soft suicide, like refusing food or water. And some dogs have killed themselves by jumping off bridges but it's not as common in the animal world in general.

I guess the only reason we're the only species that kills themselves is because we know how to, like for example an animal can never figure out how to hang itself

Animals are smart enough to know what kills them. Yes animals may have jumped off bridges but no animal intentionally "commits suicide" in the same way that humans do. Animals also know what can poison them and which predators could kill them.

First off: ALL animals are conscious. The word itself comes from Latin "anima" which means spirit. Animals are all creatures that are animated with a spirit.

And yes, under extreme conditions they do commit suicide, or attempt to. It's known of orcas kept in amusement parks and such. Just like humans, some do it and some don't, it depends on the personality. There was a famous orca named Lolita who was incarcerated for half a century at Miami Seaquarium until she died a year or two ago.
If I remember right it was her male companion who killed himself long ago by slamming himself head first into the wall of the pool, I think repeatedly, until he died.

I've cried about their fate a lot. Humans are evil.

There has never been a recorded case of it in nature was my point. Humans are not "evil".

 

[_Gollum_]

Definitely a product of the conscious mind. If you haven't already, I would recommend reading Peter Zapffe's essay "The Last Messiah", which deals precisely with this issue, arguing that human consciousness is a maladaptive evolutionary trait, similar to an elk that grows antlers so big that they pull him to the ground and disable him.

 

[apollon]

Some animals commit soft suicide, like refusing food or water. And some dogs have killed themselves by jumping off bridges but it's not as common in the animal world in general.

I guess the only reason we're the only species that kills themselves is because we know how to, like for example an animal can never figure out how to hang itself

i agree with what you said about soft suicide, however animals can still kill themselves, for example, dolphins consciously have to choose to breathe, unlike humans. In some cases there have been dolphins that refuse to resurface to breathe and die due to asphyxiation. Dolphins are highly intelligent animals so maybe not for every species.

 

[mistake22]

I have heard of animals commiting suicide. It's not very common. The thing is some spiders willingly give themselves up for their children. Is that considered suicide or sacrifice? Insects have all kinds of survival methods just like animals we just label them differently i guess

 

[bl33ding_heart]

Some animals do commit suicide or self harm under certain circumstances. Tilikum the orca that was kept in captivity would repeatedly slam his entire body into the walls of his tank due to mental distress. There have been many cases of animals taking their own life due to grief, swans are notorious for this. I think suicide is mostly a product of intelligence. Consciousness facilitates one's potential to experience suffering. Us humans arguably have a higher level of consciousness in comparison to most animals. Making us more intelligent. Therefore enhancing our capability to experience emotional/mental distress. Which is the leading cause of suicide, and the reason we of all species commit suicide the most.

 

[ZwartHartje]

Some animals do commit suicide or self harm under certain circumstances. Tilikum the orca that was kept in captivity would repeatedly slam his entire body into the walls of his tank due to mental distress. There have been many cases of animals taking their own life due to grief, swans are notorious for this. I think suicide is mostly a product of intelligence. Consciousness facilitates one's potential to experience suffering. Us humans arguably have a higher level of consciousness in comparison to most animals. Making us more intelligent. Therefore enhancing our capability to experience emotional/mental distress. Which is the leading cause of suicide, and the reason we of all species commit suicide the most.

Indeed about the self harm, it's known that some parrots will pluck out their own feathers out of grief. I didn't know though that swans were known to commit suicide (how?), I know of one who lives around here who recently lost her partner, he was found dead in the water some weeks ago. The female flew from the lake to the river later, but she seems to be ok so far.
As for higher level of consciousness and intelligence in humans, I think both are debatable - and both are not necessarily correlated. This came up recently in a discussion about artificial intelligence, it was argued that many people may believe that AI is conscious because they equate intelligence with consciousness, but that actually something can be highly intelligent without being conscious, as well as highly conscious without having much intelligence. Myself I had never really thought about this before.
What I had thought about though is this: Imagine you were born in a different body. Maybe you just hatched out of an egg in a nest up in a tree. Your bird mommy will feed you for a while and then help you learn to fly, but that's it. No science, no written knowledge from generations before - you're on your own to make sense of the world and to navigate through your life somehow, and I think that's not a small feat at all!
I think other animals have different kinds of intelligence. But many have very sophisticated senses and certainly are highly conscious.

 

[bl33ding_heart]

Indeed about the self harm, it's known that some parrots will pluck out their own feathers out of grief. I didn't know though that swans were known to commit suicide (how?), I know of one who lives around here who recently lost her partner, he was found dead in the water some weeks ago. The female flew from the lake to the river later, but she seems to be ok so far.
As for higher level of consciousness and intelligence in humans, I think both are debatable - and both are not necessarily correlated. This came up recently in a discussion about artificial intelligence, it was argued that many people may believe that AI is conscious because they equate intelligence with consciousness, but that actually something can be highly intelligent without being conscious, as well as highly conscious without having much intelligence. Myself I had never really thought about this before.
What I had thought about though is this: Imagine you were born in a different body. Maybe you just hatched out of an egg in a nest up in a tree. Your bird mommy will feed you for a while and then help you learn to fly, but that's it. No science, no written knowledge from generations before - you're on your own to make sense of the world and to navigate through your life somehow, and I think that's not a small feat at all!
I think other animals have different kinds of intelligence. But many have very sophisticated senses and certainly are highly conscious.

Ai is coded entirely by humans, and has the entire internet as its source for what answers it gives. Anyone that thinks it's conscious because of that is kinda dumb lol. My point wasn't intelligence = consciousness. But consciousness brings forth the potential to have more intelligence. I also do agree that animals do have forms of intelligence that we lack in, our current understanding of animals and their psyche is definitely very flawed. But I believe the type of intelligence humans exceed in is superior, and therefore a huge reason as to why humans commit suicide the most of all living beings, for the reasons I previously explained. Our intelligence gives us the ability to articulate thought and complex reason better than any other animal, and because of that us humans have practically taken over the entire world and claimed it for ourselves.

 

[ZwartHartje]

Ai is coded entirely by humans, and has the entire internet as its source for what answers it gives. Anyone that thinks it's conscious because of that is kinda dumb lol. My point wasn't intelligence = consciousness. But consciousness brings forth the potential to have more intelligence. I also do agree that animals do have forms of intelligence that we lack in, our current understanding of animals and their psyche is definitely very flawed. But I believe the type of intelligence humans exceed in is superior, and therefore a huge reason as to why humans commit suicide the most of all living beings, for the reasons I previously explained. Our intelligence gives us the ability to articulate thought and complex reason better than any other animal, and because of that us humans have practically taken over the entire world and claimed it for ourselves.

Sounds like it's a bug, especially from your last sentence, "...practically taken over the entire world and claimed it for ourselves." I.e. stolen it from all others who had much older rights to be here (by millions of years!), and then completely f***ed it up to boot. A short list of human achievements that no other animal had done before: slavery, torture, genocide to the extent of extinction (all of these against their own but on MUCH greater scale to other species), pollution, deforestation, and even blotting out the night sky from view via light pollution. Invading everyone else's habitats and turning them to concrete; no one else can live there anymore. And all the while breeding and breeding and overrunning the whole planet with an unspeakable extent of overpopulation. Humans are a cancer on the Earth's biosphere.
The only good thing is, cancer always dies in the end. Either when the host organism gets cured of it, or when it dies from it, the cancer dies either way. And this is the only hope that's left. Of course I'd by far prefer the former case. It will most likely be a messy mix though, maybe a partial die-off, but then relapse, until the cancer is defeated, either with or without taking out most of the biosphere with it.

 

[restingplace]

I think the difference isn't about human nature, its our circumstances. Unlike animals we have social constructs and mindsets we live by, animals just do what's best to survive, they don't have to worry about appearing mean or how they look or act ect. I kind of hate living for this reason as i don't like to live a human life, I dont want to be professional, i don't want to develop relationships. Everything human like that is just such a chore to me. I especially hate the thinking part because unlike animals humans aren't cruel for survival, humans are cruel because they can be.

I think i just don't like thinking, fucks my goals and motivations up. My cats must have it good.

 

[ZwartHartje]

I think the difference isn't about human nature, its our circumstances. Unlike animals we have social constructs and mindsets we live by, animals just do what's best to survive, they don't have to worry about appearing mean or how they look or act ect. I kind of hate living for this reason as i don't like to live a human life, I dont want to be professional, i don't want to develop relationships. Everything human like that is just such a chore to me. I especially hate the thinking part because unlike animals humans aren't cruel for survival, humans are cruel because they can be.

I think i just don't like thinking, fucks my goals and motivations up. My cats must have it good.

Well, actually I do like thinking, I like knowledge and the pursuit of it - but for its own sake and as a free choice. I hate being told what to learn and what to think, I hate the hive-mindedness of humans. You have to be either one of the few who are tyrants or one of the many obedient slaves, any other way of life free from that machinery is next to impossible. I hate the human way of life, I hate bureaucracy, borders, government, laws. Laws wouldn't be necessary if people weren't nasty, but the problem is that the existing laws are made and enforced by nasty people too, and so there's extreme injustice, especially against non-humans.