Discussion Is suicide justified?

[revolucion]

Is it?

 

[PrettyMoose]

Is life justified? It depends on who you ask.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Is it?

Why do you ask?

 

[Notabadguy]

It depends on your views and values.

 

[whereispeace]

I think in some cases it is, yes. It's kind of subjective though. Sometimes it's difficult to discern whether a situation is truly hopeless.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

No easy answer.

In my view, it depends on whether or not there are others who depend upon your and then the potential effects upon them through your passing away and your level of suffering have to be weighed up against each other.
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On the other hand, if you have no children and aren't in a position where peoples welfare seriously depends on your role/ or where your role can be easily taken up by someone else, I see no reason why it shouldn't be "justified".

You don't have to justify killing yourself.

 

[Notabadguy]

In my opinion, it can't be a revenge, a statement... or whatever based on emotion. It must be based on reason. If you are thinking about CTB due only to emotion, you should seek profesional help. And after that, if you still want to CTB, well, then, and only then, it's up to you.

 

[Cutepoison]

Is life justified? It depends on who you ask.

This is such a good question. Come to think of it, most of population was probably an accident, I don't believe that 7.5 billion people were all conceived intentionally. And then it's like, if most of us are a by-product of 15 minutes of pleasure, why the fuck struggle? Why live? The outcome will be death anyway, and I really think that if someone is suicidal, they should fucking be allowed to go in peace. It sucks that most of us here have to look for gruesome methods when if places like dignitas or pegasos became more accessible, we'd have a peaceful, successful death.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

In my opinion, it can't be a revenge, a statement... or whatever based on emotion. It must be based on reason. If you are thinking about CTB due only to emotion, you should seek profesional help. And after that, if you still want to CTB, well, then, and only then, it's up to you.

This is illusory. No one lives by reason, or do you think people have children because they determined rationally that it was the right thing to do?

So yes, you should apply reason to the issue; but in the end, aren't most suicides because of pain?
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I will go further and say that you cannot make any decisions purely by reason, because first of all you need to know what is desirable, and desire is an emotion, or at least the positive outcome that is desired is somehow linked to a positive emotional outcome.

 

[Notabadguy]

Yes, yes of course. If you lose a child you are in pain. But sometimes, in less extreme scenarios, you should try to manage the pain, and take a decision based on reason, not in the pain you are suffering.

 

[calendulo]

Of course, every human being has that right.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

.

For example, one could argue that collecting enough firewood in the summer in preparation for winter is reasonable, because freezing to death is painful and bad.

 

[Notabadguy]

My scenario is not the end of the world, but I want to CTB. I have a problem in my face that attracts the attention of others (if I weren't a civil servant, I would have no job because nobody would hire me), also, I have to move to another city and lose purchasing power. I'm 39. Maybe it's not too much. But I want to CTB. I'm depressed, I know that I can heal, but I want to CTB.

So, I think that my decision is based on reason. I don't want to CTB based on emotion, at least if I'm aware of that.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

Yes, yes of course. If you lose a child you are in pain. But sometimes, in less extreme scenarios, you should try to manage the pain, and take a decision based on reason, not in the pain you are suffering.

Ah okay, I understand what you are saying. You are making the impulsivity argument.

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue, whether or not we should let people ctb impulsively. Probably only after a certain time frame, like six months to a year, we agree on that.

 

[Notabadguy]

.

For example, one could argue that collecting enough firewood in the summer in preparation for winter is reasonable, because freezing to death is painful and bad.

I don't understand.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

I don't understand.

I tried to illustrate how what is reasonable always depends on emotions or value judgements in the end.

Getting a job is reasonable, because being without money is painful and detrimental to you.

To most people, thinking about their death fills them with fear (bad feelings) and so they conclude broadly that it must be unreasonable.

I'm only saying this because you said the decision must by reasoned through and not be influenced by emotion - or did I misunderstand you?

 

[Notabadguy]

No, you did't misunderstand me. I get you now. You were talking in a more philosophical level. Yes, of course, the emotion plays its part. If you don't feel suicidal (emotion), whatever the reason, you won't CTB. You're right. I'm only saying that you shouldn't rush. But I recognize that I would rush if I had N, because I wouldn't risk missing the chance (police or whatever).

 

[a.n.kirillov]

It depends on your views and values.

This is what I meant, you said it yourself basically, we agree ^^

 

[Frt]

I think so, if we have been mutilated or physical damage. If the life became impossible. :(

 

[revolucion]

Why do you ask?

Because I've delayed it for two years now. I've nothing left but I still carry on one shitty day at a time. I don't remember the last time I had a proper meal or a good nights sleep. Mental and physical pain has killed me from within.

 

[Blutsager]

May I use religious lecture to anwser your question? If any of you is uncomfortable about christianity, lemme beforehand apologize for this to come:

When our Lord was nailed at the cross, after three days of suffering, Him, knowing that death was inevitable and all that was happening now was him extending his suffering, begged for the release of death. And a roman soldier, by the name of Longinus, in an act of mercy, stabbed Jesus with his spear, killing him. This man, who had just commited the sin of murder, and of out Messiah no less, was not doomed to Eternal Damnation for his actions... he was risen to become a Saint.

An example of how, when one knows that the only thing that lies ahead of you is suffering until the release of death... cutting it short is completely justifiable. Even noble, as that who does such merciful act for you may become a Saint.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

May I use religious lecture to anwser your question? If any of you is uncomfortable about christianity, lemme beforehand apologize for this to come:

When our Lord was nailed at the cross, after three days of suffering, Him, knowing that death was inevitable and all that was happening now was him extending his suffering, begged for the release of death. And a roman soldier, by the name of Longinus, in an act of mercy, stabbed Jesus with his spear, killing him. This man, who had just commited the sin of murder, and of out Messiah no less, was not doomed to Eternal Damnation for his actions... he was risen to become a Saint.

An example of how, when one knows that the only thing that lies ahead of you is suffering until the release of death... cutting it short is completely justifiable. Even noble, as that who does such merciful act for you may become a Saint.

"Uncomfortable" with Christianity, what a nice way to put it.

I think David Humes "On suicide" defeats any Christian argument against suicide a la "Your body is God's property" anyway.

It should be required reading on this website.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

The Stoics compared a rational suicide to withdrawing from the party of life. They gave five reasons that justified withdrawing from the party:

1. In service of one's country, i.e., an old friend shows up to the party and requires your services.

2. The arrival of rowdy revelers, i.e., tyrants who force us to say or do disgraceful things at the party.

3. Protracted illness that prevents the soul from the use of its tool, the body, i.e., spoilage of provisions for the party.

4. Poverty, i.e., scarceness of party provisions.

5. Madness, i.e., drunkenness at the party. In Buddhist terms, intoxicants lower one's inhibitions against doing no harm to others and, by default, the self, or in Stoic terms, lowering the inhibitions of practicing virtue. It would be a dangerous party for the wise and virtuous one who practiced moderation.

Source: Griffin, Miriam. "Philosophy, Cato, and Roman Suicide I," Greece and Rome, vol. 33, no. 1, 1986, pp. 64-77. Original source cited by Griffin: Stoicorum Veterum Fragmenta, a 1903-1905 collection by Hans von Arnim of fragments and testimony of the earlier Stoics.

This article and article II are available for free online viewing at JSTOR.

 

[Blutsager]

"Uncomfortable" with Christianity, what a nice way to put it.

I think David Humes "On suicide" defeats any Christian argument against suicide a la "Your body is God's property" anyway.

It should be required reading on this website.

Yeah, haha... ever since I became aware of the events that would follow with Codvid-19, back in January, I had a strong spiritual resurgence. So when I joined to this forum a few weeks ago I came in blasting lots of religious sermons, not nagging anyone or anything but telling everyone that they shouldn't fear death, that the Heavens awaited us and so on... got a few negative replies from people who dislike my comments, feeling I am pushing my faith down their throats. Which is fair! I never intended to try to convert people here, only to share words that sooth me and hoped it would sooth others, but as christianity has so many times been preached aggresively to the people, I understand why when I came in with such words most felt like I was trying to force it on them. So I wanna avoid doing it, but here, in particular, I felt was a good moment to give you an ever so slight religious exposition... an example of a religion that, even though many of it's most important figures argue is against ending a life in suffering... has examples of quite the opposite... when the circumstances, and the suffering, justifies it.

 

[WOODESITY]

I think suicide doesn't need justification but I'm pretty sure as myself i used to seek for justification, it is in fact it is very personal choice and everyone has their reasons but i somehow find it wrong to ctb when you've responsibility and not talking about job or paying off money if you owe someone, in some cases as having someone depending on you it feels like wrong thing to do, but everyone has their specific threshold and conditions

 

[FusRohDracarys]

Depends on who you ask, of course.

For my own piece, I'll cite John Locke and/or the Declaration of Independence. People have the natural rights to life and liberty, but I can't see how people can have those rights without also having the right to end their life and the freedom to choose to do so. So yes, I do think it's justified simply on the premise that you can choose to not exercise your rights, but nothing should impede you from exercising them.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

"Uncomfortable" with Christianity, what a nice way to put it.

I think David Humes "On suicide" defeats any Christian argument against suicide a la "Your body is God's property" anyway.

It should be required reading on this website.

Here it is:

DAVID HUME(1711-1776)from Of SuicideLetter to John Home of Ninewells

 

[Mr2005]

It is in my case

 

[Deleted member 1465]

May I use religious lecture to anwser your question? If any of you is uncomfortable about christianity, lemme beforehand apologize for this to come:

When our Lord was nailed at the cross, after three days of suffering, Him, knowing that death was inevitable and all that was happening now was him extending his suffering, begged for the release of death. And a roman soldier, by the name of Longinus, in an act of mercy, stabbed Jesus with his spear, killing him. This man, who had just commited the sin of murder, and of out Messiah no less, was not doomed to Eternal Damnation for his actions... he was risen to become a Saint.

An example of how, when one knows that the only thing that lies ahead of you is suffering until the release of death... cutting it short is completely justifiable. Even noble, as that who does such merciful act for you may become a Saint.

I've never heard anyone use Longinus as an argument for euthanasia before. Kudos.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

Here it is:

DAVID HUME(1711-1776)from Of SuicideLetter to John Home of Ninewells

Wow, thanks for that resource!