Discussion Is suicide justified?

[FrailPaleStaleMaleSS]

Simple answer. Yes

 

[BipolarExpat]

How can a non existent being give consent when it doesn't have a conscious?

I've noticed that idea is strong in this forum. "I wasn't asked, I didn't give consent or choose this life or (especially) its problems." And that is very, VERY understandable.

But, there are quite a lot of people who believe each one of us most definitely did choose such an existence.

"Who in the F*ck would choose this sh*t!!??"

I know....I know.

The concept derives from spiritualists, believers of reincarnation and others who strongly associate with a never ending human soul or body of energy that transcends the physical plane.

Such followers might contend that "consent" has nothing to do with it but rather creation through will and choice. The belief is we're constantly (consciously and subconsciously) making choices by exercising our wills and it doesn't matter if we're physically alive or not.

And in their roadmap of life and death, where death doesn't actually exist (life only transcends into an alternate state), there is a place for an ongoing consciousness.

Maybe one of the most debatable aspects of such beliefs is (as mentioned previously) the idea that your spirit-soul additionally chose to delete all memories of such pre-life choices and was reborn with not only infantile amnesia but past and pre life amnesia as well.

When questioned, believers will frequently claim that such memories actually are obtainable in this lifetime through the use of psychic mediums, frequent/focused prayer and/or meditation/yoga, ingesting hallucinogenic plants, increasing dream recall/lucidity and other methods to clear the mind and invoke self exploration.

At this point, I'm in no position to say this over here...it is b*llsh*t and that over there is a fact"....not when dealing with otherworldly or universal matters, cuz I just don't know.

Maybe you feel differently. If so, I can accept that.

I only know that once upon a time I was heavily influenced by a great many so-called spiritual writers and practitioners as Walsch, Cayce, Chopra, Peck, Bach, Hesse, Coelho, Ophiel, Watts, McKenna, Tolle, Krishnamurti, Weiss and others. Maybe too much so as it has left me with a challenging thought process regarding afterlife, etc.

The actual data (that is, historical and scientific research re: physical proof of reincarnation) published, recorded and kept at the Edgar Cayce foundation as well as Dr. Brian Weiss' body of research on the same topic is....startling to say the least.

I'm sorry, @Soulless_Angel - I very much doubt this topic personally interests you much.
I'm lonely, anxious and ...it's just a subject I used to be heavily into so I'm blathering on.

No offense intended.

As to the Op, it certainly can be justified when suffering is involved but modern day society is chock full of BS that could easily influence one to believe otherwise.

 

[Soulless_Angel]

I've noticed that idea is strong in this forum. "I wasn't asked, I didn't give consent or choose this life or (especially) its problems." And that is very, VERY understandable.

But, there are quite a lot of people who believe each one of us most definitely did choose such an existence.

"Who in the F*ck would choose this sh*t!!??"

I know....I know.

The concept derives from spiritualists, believers of reincarnation and others who strongly associate with a never ending human soul or body of energy that transcends the physical plane.

Such followers might contend that "consent" has nothing to do with it but rather creation through will and choice. The belief is we're constantly (consciously and subconsciously) making choices by exercising our wills and it doesn't matter if we're physically alive or not.

And in their roadmap of life and death, where death doesn't actually exist (life only transcends into an alternate state), there is a place for an ongoing consciousness.

Maybe one of the most debatable aspects of such beliefs is (as mentioned previously) the idea that your spirit-soul additionally chose to delete all memories of such pre-life choices and was reborn with not only infantile amnesia but past and pre life amnesia as well.

When questioned, believers will frequently claim that such memories actually are obtainable in this lifetime through the use of psychic mediums, frequent/focused prayer and/or meditation/yoga, ingesting hallucinogenic plants, increasing dream recall/lucidity and other methods to clear the mind and invoke self exploration.

At this point, I'm in no position to say this over here...it is b*llsh*t and that over there is a fact"....not when dealing with otherworldly or universal matters, cuz I just don't know.

Maybe you feel differently. If so, I can accept that.

I only know that once upon a time I was heavily influenced by a great many so-called spiritual writers and practitioners as Walsch, Cayce, Chopra, Peck, Bach, Hesse, Coelho, Ophiel, Watts, McKenna, Tolle, Krishnamurti, Weiss and others. Maybe too much so as it has left me with a challenging thought process regarding afterlife, etc.

The actual data (that is, historical and scientific research re: physical proof of reincarnation) published, recorded and kept at the Edgar Cayce foundation as well as Dr. Brian Weiss' body of research on the same topic is....startling to say the least.

I'm sorry, @Soulless_Angel - I very much doubt this topic personally interests you much.
I'm lonely, anxious and ...it's just a subject I used to be heavily into so I'm blathering on.

No offense intended.

As to the Op, it certainly can be justified when suffering is involved but modern day society is chock full of BS that could easily influence one to believe otherwise.

Im a spiritualist through and through carry on....

 

[WhyIsLife56]

I'm not saying this again: A non existent being can't consent to anything. Cause it simply DOES NOT exist.

Think about it: Did you have any desires when you didn't exist? Like were you hungry when you didn't exist? It doesn't make sense right?

There's no reason to justify suicide cause people don't seem to know that they were born for no reason and without consent. There's no reason for you to exist. And no one consented to themselves being born.

If you think you consented, where's the contract paper? Did you fill out a contract? So where is it then? It doesn't exist huh? Well isn't that interesting

 

[Soulless_Angel]

I'm not saying this again: A non existent being can't consent to anything. Cause it simply DOES NOT exist.

Think about it: Did you have any desires when you didn't exist? Like were you hungry when you didn't exist? It doesn't make sense right?

There's no reason to justify suicide cause people don't seem to know that they were born for no reason and without consent. There's no reason for you to exist. And no one consented to themselves being born.

If you think you consented, where's the contract paper? Did you fill out a contract? So where is it then? It doesn't exist huh? Well isn't that interesting

if there is no reason to exist, then why is there a reason/choice to die? Existence is what it is, we are created, through choice or not, then we die, through choice or not, simple as
What happens after is down to beliefs, what happens before is down to beliefs, we are not in a place to question this

 

[UpandDownPrincess]

Depends in what context, this is such an open ended question dependant on one's circumstances!

I voted maybe, but I really mean sometimes. Plus, what Soulless_Angel said.

 

[Whitewash11235814]

depends on the context but I'd say generally yes.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

Also, existence is suffering. If you weren't suffering you wouldn't be on this forum. You wouldn't be looking for suicide methods. You would be out in the world. Being a wage slave. Trying to hide your despair and pretending everything is ok. Pretending you like your friend group when in reality all you want to do is sleep for eternity.

Pretending you love school. Pretending that "life is a gift "

Wondering why your paycheck is so low. Wondering when can you finally go on a vacation.

And then thinking: Why do I need to do all this? This paycheck isn't going to last forever. People around me are going to die at some point. I'm going to die at some point. Why do any of this?

 

[Whitewash11235814]

If there's no purpose, then my cause of death will be justified by the glorious beings. I'm sure they have the answers and explanations.

 

[MysticPerception]

Also, existence is suffering. If you weren't suffering you wouldn't be on this forum. You wouldn't be looking for suicide methods. You would be out in the world. Being a wage slave. Trying to hide your despair and pretending everything is ok. Pretending you like your friend group when in reality all you want to do is sleep for eternity.

Pretending you love school. Pretending that "life is a gift "

Wondering why your paycheck is so low. Wondering when can you finally go on a vacation.

And then thinking: Why do I need to do all this? This paycheck isn't going to last forever. People around me are going to die at some point. I'm going to die at some point. Why do any of this?

View attachment 25379

That just nails it on the head for me. Christ what a waste of time being alive is. Even if I can have fun sometimes it's just a temporary distraction from the soul crushing reality. Oh well at least you can end it yourself with the right means.

To answer the thread though I hit maybe but really my answer is I'm not in a position to decide that. What gives anyone the right to decide if something is justified or not? I wouldn't know myself, so I would rather just say it really doesn't matter anyway. Justification is pointless in the end in my opinion.

 

[BipolarExpat]

I'm not saying this again: A non existent being can't consent to anything. Cause it simply DOES NOT exist.

You are absolutely entitled to your beliefs. Another perspective is that existence extends far beyond earthly being.

IOW: there's a whole lot more going on than what we can currently perceive in this (limited) physical plane.

This life feels intensely real and whole when one is in the midst of it. Indeed, emotions/feelings, passions, thoughts, loss, love, etc. are incredibly powerful and feel all-encompassing.

Some believe that when one dies it is like waking up to a great realization. The realization being that you did choose all of this (including the circumstances of your own demise) for purposes of growth - yours and those around you.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

That just nails it on the head for me. Christ what a waste of time being alive is. Even if I can have fun sometimes it's just a temporary distraction from the soul crushing reality. Oh well at least you can end it yourself with the right means.

To answer the thread though I hit maybe but really my answer is I'm not in a position to decide that. What gives anyone the right to decide if something is justified or not? I wouldn't know myself, so I would rather just say it really doesn't matter anyway. Justification is pointless in the end in my opinion.

Good point there.

You are absolutely entitled to your beliefs. Another perspective is that existence extends far beyond earthly being.

IOW: there's a whole lot more going on than what we can currently perceive in this (limited) physical plane.

This life feels intensely real and whole when one is in the midst of it. Indeed, emotions/feelings, passions, thoughts, loss, love, etc. are incredibly powerful and feel all-encompassing.

Some believe that when one dies it is like waking up to a great realization. The realization being that you did choose all of this (including the circumstances of your own demise) for purposes of growth - yours and those around you.

It's not a belief. It's reality.

 

[SlackJim]

@WhyIsLife56 what you're saying is an opinion, but you're stating it as if it's a fact. I'm certain I was conscious in some form before being born as a human being, I have remembered it clearer than this life itself, my body didn't exist, but some part of me did. Our human bodies are the smallest fraction of who we are.

 

[Whitewash11235814]

There's obviously 0 chance I chose all this, and even If I did, there are a bunch of logical fallacies. Secondly, future can't predicted by souls with such accuracy.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

I'm opting out of this thread. No one seems to be thinking at all.
Good luck with your "justifications"

 

[Soulless_Angel]

I am not in the mood to argue, I am on the rum and will talk shit till the cows come home, and until I get a pet cow we could be here for a while, so best not I get into this debate, so will stick with my orignal post, which is


Depends in what context, this is such an open ended question dependant on one's circumstances!

 

[BipolarExpat]

I'm not trying to justify anything and do apologize for straying off topic. I was only pointing out and waxing on about the MANY different perspectives regarding what life/death may be about.

It's hard not to be a little leery of those who present ideas and beliefs as absolutes. Especially when they deal with "great unknowns" that humanity has collectively struggled with since time immemorial


Justifying one's own death is simple in my mind. "I'm suffering because of A,B & C therefore I've chosen to go." The End
How others react to your exit and/or justification will be (quite literally) out of your hands.

 

[Broken Chimera]

Also, existence is suffering. If you weren't suffering you wouldn't be on this forum. You wouldn't be looking for suicide methods. You would be out in the world. Being a wage slave. Trying to hide your despair and pretending everything is ok. Pretending you like your friend group when in reality all you want to do is sleep for eternity.

Pretending you love school. Pretending that "life is a gift "

Wondering why your paycheck is so low. Wondering when can you finally go on a vacation.

And then thinking: Why do I need to do all this? This paycheck isn't going to last forever. People around me are going to die at some point. I'm going to die at some point. Why do any of this?

View attachment 25379

I wish I heard this back when I was heavy with the spiritual stuff because you're dead on. Even if we were spiritual beings having a human experience it still doesn't make sense why life is the way it is. Why some people suffer more than others. Why assholes seemingly lead easier lives than honest folk. Why we're wage slaves for the system barely making it day to day.

I'm wondering what "god" would say in response to suffering = learning. Suffering doesn't build character, it doesn't make you stronger and you can't learn anything from it. The only thing that I've learned from suffering is that I don't want anymore of it.

 

[k75]

I'm opting out of this thread. No one seems to be thinking at all.
Good luck with your "justifications"

I admire your conviction and devotion to what you believe in. But you have exactly as much proof your beliefs are true as you do that they are not. None of us knows any of it for sure.

 

[Soulless_Angel]

I wish I heard this back when I was heavy with the spiritual stuff because you're dead on. Even if we were spiritual beings having a human experience it still doesn't make sense why life is the way it is. Why some people suffer more than others. Why assholes seemingly lead easier lives than honest folk. Why we're wage slaves for the system barely making it day to day.

I'm wondering what "god" would say in response to suffering = learning. Suffering doesn't build character, it doesn't make you stronger and you can't learn anything from it. The only thing that I've learned from suffering is that I don't want anymore of it.

Our suffering is often out of our hands, our suffering they say can be changed, but I believe what is done can never be undone, therapy can help, but It will never remove the pain or the memories, learn to deal with it, to me isn't good enough excuse or reason,

My spiritualist beliefs are at the moment hazy, after years of believing, I have chosen to just deal with life day to day, occasionally turning to my cards for hope and prayer, asking the angels to show themselves, nothing more. I believe as in my experience I have evidence that there is more to life then what we see. I am happy to speak of these experiences if asked

You are right as in suffering does not build character, to me suffering comes from another humans desire to ensure their own happiness and their need is the first and foremost disregarding anyone else.
Suicide, in all honestly, I have until a year ago no true opinion on, it is something that has sat beside me since teenage years, but I had no *justification* for it, Its only on recent event's I realise this life is not for me and the sooner I am gone, then the pain can end quicker.
at this point I believe it is justifiable depending on your own path in life

 

[zmth]

Why does suicide need justification though?

To quote "And justifying your exit simply isn't necessary because it would imply that life in general is worth living and that you need to somehow debunk this notion with arguments. It isn't and literally not one single person ever consented to their birth, that's something that gets overlooked every time we talk about suicide. So why should we justify our exit if we didn't even want to experience life in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and the question around validity doesn't address that either."

This being a quote by the lovely @RainAndSadness ❤

agree strongly with that

Yes especially in a society like we have. It's not even a little bit fair. You're brainwashed and the rulers want to mold u into something that doesn't align with how human beings are designed to live. So yea I can't blame anyone for wanting out of this. It's a slavery system but under the guise that u are free all the while they predetermine what education u will receive, what options u have to support yourself, how much money u can earn, what healthcare u can access, what housing u can access or wether u can access acceptable housing at all. They meddle in all of these areas that should be the least of your worries. So there's many ways the rulers attempt to control your opportunity for a satisfying happy life and ability to be self determining.

very much agree with those statements

 

[Nemeshisu]

I don't think suicide needs to even be justified. The need of it being justified would be implying that there is some moral absolute that says that you must stay alive at all cost. However, Human beings vary in their beliefs about morals, so no moral absolutes like this exist. To the need to justify suicide to exist, we would first need to justify why we should stay alive. So far no one in our short history has provided any absolute reason why we should live.

I believe that I didn't consent to any of this just like @WhyIsLife56 said. However, some people still delude themselves that it isn't truth. As much as I am dissapointed in this, I must to tolerate your opinions...

I only believe in one thing, and that is everyone has freedom to make any choice they like (Well, as long as they do not intend to hurt others). It only all comes down to simple choice. Do you justify every your action? Do you need to justify why did you eat cornflakes for breakfast? I don't think so. You don't need to justify actions like this. It's your choice whether you want to live or want to commit suicide. You don't need to justify suicide before anyone. No one has right to force their morality onto you and only you know what is best for you.

 

[Broken Chimera]

Our suffering is often out of our hands, our suffering they say can be changed, but I believe what is done can never be undone, therapy can help, but It will never remove the pain or the memories, learn to deal with it, to me isn't good enough excuse or reason,

My spiritualist beliefs are at the moment hazy, after years of believing, I have chosen to just deal with life day to day, occasionally turning to my cards for hope and prayer, asking the angels to show themselves, nothing more. I believe as in my experience I have evidence that there is more to life then what we see. I am happy to speak of these experiences if asked

You are right as in suffering does not build character, to me suffering comes from another humans desire to ensure their own happiness and their need is the first and foremost disregarding anyone else.
Suicide, in all honestly, I have until a year ago no true opinion on, it is something that has sat beside me since teenage years, but I had no *justification* for it, Its only on recent event's I realise this life is not for me and the sooner I am gone, then the pain can end quicker.
at this point I believe it is justifiable depending on your own path in life

Ik it's more than what we can see, I've seen too many things to believe otherwise. But I don't think it's for our good. If you don't mind I'd like to hear about your experiences. You can pm me if you like.

 

[Soulless_Angel]

Ik it's more than what we can see, I've seen too many things to believe otherwise. But I don't think it's for our good. If you don't mind I'd like to hear about your experiences. You can pm me if you like.

Short story, I thought I had it on my blog, which I would have linked too but apparently not (or I am just too drunk to find it) BUT..

One year I was in my teens, my brother took me to his friends new house, my brother is ten years older then me. He asked to show me around the house, I shrugged said cool, I am naturally a nosey cow!
He showed me round then took me to a bedroom, I felt instantly uncomfortable, but I didn't question it. I noticed him and his mate standing back, again I didn't question it.
I opened the door and heat hit me, I thought they had left the heating on. Walking in, I saw a single bed, a cupboard and nothing more, the roof by the window was slanted, white walls, a basic room
I felt compelled to sit on the bed, it felt hot yet i felt so cold.
Suddenly fear filled my body, i felt heat, I heard babies screaming, I felt hatred, I felt something I had never felt before. I ran from that room, I ran and refused to stay in that house. Not longer I learned that in that very room years before, a man had murdered his two young children then set the room on fire.

I was a fucking teenager, no internet, why the hell did my soul pick up on this! NOTHING had been said to me prior, this is just one experience of many, let me link to this blog post of mine, (I have no issue with privacy)

Whispers of Time

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I would need to justify it to myself and my family.

Wow what a lot of responses to such a simple question. I guess it's one of the most important questions of all.

In my mind I am a physical determinist. It's nature and it sucks.
I have no faith. I'm jelous of those who do.
But in my heart, my intuition, I can't help but have this sneaking suspicion that even if we understood every little bit of physics from the start to the end, inside and out, there would still be so very much more.
I just keep having fractal recursion pop into my head...

Short story, I thought I had it on my blog, which I would have linked too but apparently not (or I am just too drunk to find it) BUT..

One year I was in my teens, my brother took me to his friends new house, my brother is ten years older then me. He asked to show me around the house, I shrugged said cool, I am naturally a nosey cow!
He showed me round then took me to a bedroom, I felt instantly uncomfortable, but I didn't question it. I noticed him and his mate standing back, again I didn't question it.
I opened the door and heat hit me, I thought they had left the heating on. Walking in, I saw a single bed, a cupboard and nothing more, the roof by the window was slanted, white walls, a basic room
I felt compelled to sit on the bed, it felt hot yet i felt so cold.
Suddenly fear filled my body, i felt heat, I heard babies screaming, I felt hatred, I felt something I had never felt before. I ran from that room, I ran and refused to stay in that house. Not longer I learned that in that very room years before, a man had murdered his two young children then set the room on fire.

I was a fucking teenager, no internet, why the hell did my soul pick up on this! NOTHING had been said to me prior, this is just one experience of many, let me link to this blog post of mine, (I have no issue with privacy)

Whispers of Time

Freaky story.
You don't have a favourite colour?
We all know you like rum

 

[Broken Chimera]

Short story, I thought I had it on my blog, which I would have linked too but apparently not (or I am just too drunk to find it) BUT..

One year I was in my teens, my brother took me to his friends new house, my brother is ten years older then me. He asked to show me around the house, I shrugged said cool, I am naturally a nosey cow!
He showed me round then took me to a bedroom, I felt instantly uncomfortable, but I didn't question it. I noticed him and his mate standing back, again I didn't question it.
I opened the door and heat hit me, I thought they had left the heating on. Walking in, I saw a single bed, a cupboard and nothing more, the roof by the window was slanted, white walls, a basic room
I felt compelled to sit on the bed, it felt hot yet i felt so cold.
Suddenly fear filled my body, i felt heat, I heard babies screaming, I felt hatred, I felt something I had never felt before. I ran from that room, I ran and refused to stay in that house. Not longer I learned that in that very room years before, a man had murdered his two young children then set the room on fire.

I was a fucking teenager, no internet, why the hell did my soul pick up on this! NOTHING had been said to me prior, this is just one experience of many, let me link to this blog post of mine, (I have no issue with privacy)

Whispers of Time

I've experienced some weird stuff, but not to that level. You've been through some stuff though. I'm gonna read through your blog, because you have some interesting stories.

 

[Soulless_Angel]

I've experienced some weird stuff, but not to that level. You've been through some stuff though. I'm gonna read through your blog, because you have some interesting stories.

I have more to post, but currently my time is not my own, my blog is my past, current and all the shit in between, feel free to inbox me at any time :)

 

[AintNoWayOut]

very broad question, it depends on the reasoning for it. so ultimately its subjective, since tolerance will vary from person to person. but imo living with unbearable physical pain everyday, for example, is more of a valid reason to do it than, say, breaking up with someone you dated for a couple years. i feel like suicide should only really be considered when theres no other options, when you WANT to live but your life has become such torment that you just cant continue/find any way to cope with or move past your problems.

 

[Egddios]

Every person has the right to end their own life. periodT.

And if one becomes incapacitated and unable to communicate their want to exercise this right, I can only hope they have compassionate people around them who understand being connected to machines is prolonging suffering.

 

[Innereye]

As ive said before I'm not Pro-Suicide or Anti-Suicide I'm Anti-torture