Discussion I'm becoming increasingly pro-Palestine

[Pessimist]

I live in Israel but I'm becoming increasingly pro-Palestine. I think the attacks on October 7 were horrific, but it doesn't give Israel the right to carpet bomb the Gaza Strip and kill many thousands of civilians. The far-right government in Israel seems determined to destroy both Hamas and Gaza, opposing any hostage deal that comes with a permanent ceasefire. In the meantime there's a catastrophic humanitarian crisis in Gaza and a threat of famine. Desperate Palestinians who have lost family members join militant groups to fight Israel. And now it looks like Netanyahu is trying to start a war in Lebanon and Iran as well.

 

[Agon321]

I do not support any side.
There is no "good" or "bad" side to this war.
In my opinion, supporting any side is wrong.

The fact is that the West (especially Great Britain) screwed up.
The West left this cauldron in chaos and without a clear solution.
We see the consequences today.

To be honest, I do not know how to solve this problem in a sensible way.
Is it possible in a bloodless way? I do not know. I do not think so.
Violence is inevitable.

 

[avalon_]

Wow, someone on the internet changing their mind about something. How refreshing. People are so hard-headed these days.

 

[Pessimist]

I do not support any side.
There is no "good" or "bad" side to this war.
In my opinion, supporting any side is wrong.

The fact is that the West (especially Great Britain) screwed up.
The West left this cauldron in chaos and without a clear solution.
We see the consequences today.

To be honest, I do not know how to solve this problem in a sensible way.
Is it possible in a bloodless way? I do not know. I do not think so.
Violence is inevitable.

Is there ever a "good" side?

 

[Agon321]

Is there ever a "good" side?

Subjectively, maybe yes.
Objectively, probably no.

War is not romanticism, but a bloody and brutal fight.
In such a scenario, neither side is sacred.

History is written by the winners.

 

[sugarb]

Is there ever a "good" side?

I mean, yeah. Auschwitz had a pretty clear-cut distinction between good and evil
though if you mean in war specifically and not just in history- sometimes. But even the most justified and "good" sides will have individuals among them who're bad in some way

 

[azo]

I don't feel like I'm educated enough to have a strong stance on the issue but I know you've made a lot of pro-Israel posts in the past (that I would've thought indicated dogmatism or at least intransigence), so props for being able to alter your position.

 

[LiuKang]

> colonises land with no claim
> attacks first
> begins losing war
> calls it genocide

 

[astr4]

imagine if i pulled up to ur house and i was like bro this is my god given house tho the british decided it :/

and then u started punching me bc hey i'm literally squatting in ur house

but the world calls me the victim and you the villain bc ur muslim and that's a no-go

feelsbadman

 

[real human being]

I live in Israel but I'm becoming increasingly pro-Palestine. I think the attacks on October 7 were horrific, but it doesn't give Israel the right to carpet bomb the Gaza Strip and kill many thousands of civilians. The far-right government in Israel seems determined to destroy both Hamas and Gaza, opposing any hostage deal that comes with a permanent ceasefire. In the meantime there's a catastrophic humanitarian crisis in Gaza and a threat of famine. Desperate Palestinians who have lost family members join militant groups to fight Israel. And now it looks like Netanyahu is trying to start a war in Lebanon and Iran as well.

Wow, during our discussion you seemed so hard headed I didn't think you could change your mind.

 

[IBM0000]

Wow, during our discussion you seemed so hard headed I didn't think you could change your mind.

When society tells you one thing, you tend to really believe it....But when YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES as someone who is suicidal due to multiutdes of reasons come into effect, you doubt these assumptions. You go through allll the dumb stages of despair. And finally, you reach acceptance. And pessismist, I am so happy for you :). You are really strong in that sense, that you overcame the israeli propaganda to have become someone better for society. Good for you.

Even other Muslim countries hate Palestinians. I'm no fan of Israel but there's no greater evil on this earth than Islam

That's not true. If you measure evil on standard measures and historical ones, Muslims werent responsible for both world wars. Not responsible for colonization of British India and the insane famine that followed. Not for the colonization of any country in modern history. Not for the current system that causes millions to die due to diseases, hunger and thirst. I am sorry, but I don't think it's fair that one 9/11 equals all that bs. Not even a million 9/11's. btw. Most 9/11 hijackers were saudi, and the us LOVES the saudis and never invaded saudia and their other middle east "allies".

 

[Pessimist]

Wow, during our discussion you seemed so hard headed I didn't think you could change your mind.

My disapproval of war crimes in Gaza doesn't mean that I agree with all of your positions. I remember that you made some baseless claims, including the idea that the UN is biased in favor of Israel (despite its known anti-Israel bias):

UN Watch Database

Each year, the UN General Assembly condemns Israel 20 times more than Iran, Syria & North Korea. Dictatorships like China, Venezuela & Saudi Arabia dominate key UN human rights bodies. See UN Watch’s latest facts & figures: unwatch.org/database.

unwatch.org

Systemic Anti-Israel Bias in the United Nations Institutional Apparatus - kohelet

New policy paper addresses systemic anti-Israel bias within the United Nations (UN) institutional apparatus which manifests in a number of areas.

www.kohelet.org.il

AIPAC Memo - Anti-Israel Action at the U.N. Since October 7 - February 2024.pdf | Powered by Box

aipacorg.app.box.com

 

[real human being]

My disapproval of war crimes in Gaza doesn't mean that I agree with all of your positions. I remember that you made some baseless claims, including the idea that the UN is biased in favor of Israel (despite its known anti-Israel bias):

UN Watch Database

Each year, the UN General Assembly condemns Israel 20 times more than Iran, Syria & North Korea. Dictatorships like China, Venezuela & Saudi Arabia dominate key UN human rights bodies. See UN Watch’s latest facts & figures: unwatch.org/database.

unwatch.org

Systemic Anti-Israel Bias in the United Nations Institutional Apparatus - kohelet

New policy paper addresses systemic anti-Israel bias within the United Nations (UN) institutional apparatus which manifests in a number of areas.

www.kohelet.org.il

AIPAC Memo - Anti-Israel Action at the U.N. Since October 7 - February 2024.pdf | Powered by Box

aipacorg.app.box.com

I'll take what I can get

 

[sh1ttynerd]

Is there ever a "good" side?

the only side that contains good are the civillians that dont deserve to be harmed due to some petty fight between 2 countries, no one deserves war. War is a product of bloodshed, it should not be idolized.

 

[pyx]

i've often heard that a pro-Palestinian position reflects a desire to abolish the Jewish state entirely, which obviously entails that an Islamic theocracy be established in its place. do you think a two-state solution is sufficiently 'pro-Palestinian'? or is it just a condemnation of Likud nationalism?

 

[Pessimist]

i've often heard that a pro-Palestinian position reflects a desire to abolish the Jewish state entirely, which obviously entails that an Islamic theocracy be established in its place. do you think a two-state solution is sufficiently 'pro-Palestinian'? or is it just a condemnation of Likud nationalism?

These are radical anti-Zionists who support the Islamist position of Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. They are often antisemitic and go to extreme lengths to demonize Israel and promote disinformation. You can support the Palestinian people without being embarrassingly obsessed and homicidal towards Israel.

 

[noname223]

These two guys really shocked me and made me angry.

 

[Davey40210]

There is no good or evil. There is just the powerful and the powerless. Good or evil is a human construct and also different depending on the culture you grew up in.

As for wars. People think they fight for their country but they are fighting for their overlords, who are not even in their country in most cases.

I usually regard people who take sides in wars as inherently dumb. Sorry perhaps that makes me dumb. I wont go into the Nazis as someone commented as then I will get immediately ostracized, but let me just say that I think not all Nazis were bad people. Just like the Israelians or Palestinians. Even the ones committing the cruelest acts. Check the Stanly Milgram experiments or read the book by Jan de Laender "Psychology of human cruelty". Any human has the potential to be cruel beyond belief given the right circumstances.

You think you cant cut someone's head off? Wait until they raped and killed your entire family. You think you cant push the button in a gas chamber? Wait until you are brainwashed for years that those people are the devil.

Or perhaps that is just my childhood talking where I tried to make sense of all the cruel humans around me.
One other thing - the Ukraine war. When I see the normal civilians that die "defending their country" being called heros it fills me with disgust. It is so different to what everyone around me is saying it makes me realize how weird I am.

No, he is not a hero. Either he was not allowed to leave the country (Ukraine placed restrictions on men leaving the country and only rich people can bypass it) or he does not have the ability to take his loved ones out of the country so he has to stay. So at best he is a victim.

And why a hero? Because he killed a bunch of other humans who just happen to be Russian and were also forced or brainwashed?

You are a hero if you leave the country. Or if you refuse to fight. That is a hero to me.

If you have the ability to take yourself and your loved ones out of the country and you still stay to fight and die, I'm sorry but you are brainwashed and possibly stupid.

That being said if they invade the UK I will happily fight cause its a great way to CTB.

 

[rebelnow111]

I live in Israel but I'm becoming increasingly pro-Palestine. I think the attacks on October 7 were horrific, but it doesn't give Israel the right to carpet bomb the Gaza Strip and kill many thousands of civilians. The far-right government in Israel seems determined to destroy both Hamas and Gaza, opposing any hostage deal that comes with a permanent ceasefire. In the meantime there's a catastrophic humanitarian crisis in Gaza and a threat of famine. Desperate Palestinians who have lost family members join militant groups to fight Israel. And now it looks like Netanyahu is trying to start a war in Lebanon and Iran as well.

i agree supporting palestimne is right in this situation, the israeli government is facist and racist

 

[IBM0000]

A-MA-ZING video.

 

[Pessimist]

These two guys really shocked me and made me angry.

Typical Ben-Gvir/Smotrich supporters. I love how they claim to speak for all Israelis and then laugh at Barak Ravid and people with "Meretz shirts".

 

[username90493486]

That's not true. If you measure evil on standard measures and historical ones, Muslims werent responsible for both world wars. Not responsible for colonization of British India and the insane famine that followed. Not for the colonization of any country in modern history. Not for the current system that causes millions to die due to diseases, hunger and thirst. I am sorry, but I don't think it's fair that one 9/11 equals all that bs. Not even a million 9/11's. btw. Most 9/11 hijackers were saudi, and the us LOVES the saudis and never invaded saudia and their other middle east "allies".

They literally attempted many of this and more, but you know that. Using the US as an example of the West as a whole when many countries try to avoid their models, or to try to patch an evil with another one is dishonest. They not having the US power doesn't mean they never wanted to engage on it, they just didn't have as many chances.

Do I have to remind you the horrors some people live in Islamic land? The corruption and mass-poverty? The radicalization and opression of groups in some, or the police dictatorships?

If Islam is clearly so much better than the West, I highly encourage you to migrate and embrace their traditions (ironic IRL they're the ones escaping those horrors and come to the West for a better life).

I find your comparison distasteful for people who experienced them.

My disapproval of war crimes in Gaza doesn't mean that I agree with all of your positions. I remember that you made some baseless claims, including the idea that the UN is biased in favor of Israel (despite its known anti-Israel bias):

BTW, it doesn't seem too much you changed your mind, you never approved what govt was doing in first place. You always disliked the Gaza situation as you said in many posts and had a strong distaste for Netanyahu. In fact to me this post looks the same you've been saying since you never liked this war in first place, but people are only greeting you now because you didn't say being minimally pro-Israel despite the idea being the exact same lol.

People are trivial to manipulate. A pair of words change the perception of an identical idea. And to think this user has been called bot, propaganda machine and all kinds of things just because it didn't agree on every single minor thing, when he fucking agreed with you in first place!

 

[Pessimist]

BTW, it doesn't seem too much you changed your mind, you never approved what govt was doing in first place. You always disliked the Gaza situation as you said in many posts and had a strong distaste for Netanyahu. In fact to me this post looks the same you've been saying since you never liked this war in first place, but people are only greeting you now because you didn't say being minimally pro-Israel despite the idea being the exact same lol.

People are trivial to manipulate. A pair of words change the perception of an identical idea. And to think this user has been called bot, propaganda machine and all kinds of things just because it didn't agree on every single minor thing, when he fucking agreed with you in first place!

I never liked Netanyahu, but at the start of the war I agreed with his position that Hamas should be eliminated. Nowadays, I strongly oppose the bombing campaign in Gaza. I think that my views have changed, but you bring an interesting point.

 

[DirtCommie]

imagine if i pulled up to ur house and i was like bro this is my god given house tho the british decided it :/

and then u started punching me bc hey i'm literally squatting in ur house

but the world calls me the victim and you the villain bc ur muslim and that's a no-go

feelsbadman

literally just this. THanks for saying it. The Balfour Declaration STILL hasnt been signed off on yet. Also the Oslo and Abraham Accords are a sham that was created to silence the publics of all countries involved. Especially those who are broke and part of the public of these cpuntries. Only the rich and their bribes matter to these poo-liticians ...Thats also why they dont care about Palestinians, no mlney to be made in recognizing their humanity all these years soooo... and here we are today! Look at that!

 

[Grog]

I don't like worrying about wars that have nothing to do with me. I know some people actually live in the war zones; but, aside from those people? Anyone else who has a strong opinionated stance on it? Most of those people just seem to display performative empathy. You heard about centuries-long conflict just the other day as if this event happened in a vacuum, and all of a sudden you have Israel or Palestine flags in your bio as if you think you're really an activist and are actually doing something. When, really, most of those people are just bored and are riding the wave of a trend. They just want to be seen as being "on the good side of history." Well, for me, I don't really give a shit how strangers perceive me; I don't know why so many of you do.

 

[avoid]

These two guys really shocked me and made me angry.

[MEDIA=youtube]QnKwc6N0Vxw[/MEDIA]

What the fuck. This video astounds me. And the fact that it was posted a year ago baffles me even more.

Today the UN released a report that confirms Famine in Gaza. And Israel once again denies everything. I don't understand why the US government supports genocide.

Article:

Source: https://www.ipcinfo.org/ipcinfo-website/countries-in-focus-archive/issue-134/en/

Article:

Israel has strongly rejected the IPC report, with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office calling it an "outright lie."

"Israel does not have a policy of starvation. Israel has a policy of preventing starvation," read a statement from the office.

Israel's Foreign Ministry, meanwhile, said "the entire IPC document is based on Hamas' lies laundered through organizations with vested interests," and claimed that the IPC had changed its "global standard" for determining famine by "cutting the 30% threshold to 15% for this report only."

Source: https://time.com/7311728/gaza-famine-ipc-report-world-leaders-reactions/

 

[DirtCommie]

I don't like worrying about wars that have nothing to do with me. I know some people actually live in the war zones; but, aside from those people? Anyone else who has a strong opinionated stance on it? Most of those people just seem to display performative empathy. You heard about centuries-long conflict just the other day as if this event happened in a vacuum, and all of a sudden you have Israel or Palestine flags in your bio as if you think you're really an activist and are actually doing something. When, really, most of those people are just bored and are riding the wave of a trend. They just want to be seen as being "on the good side of history." Well, for me, I don't really give a shit how strangers perceive me; I don't know why so many of you do.

say this same thing to the Houthis in Yemen 20 years agao and even today. They dont even live in the war zone, and their blockade has actually worked to stall the gen o cide https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-debt-ridden-eilat-port-to-close-sunday-1001516171. Or say it to the Irish who are all the way in europe lol

I don't like worrying about wars that have nothing to do with me. I know some people actually live in the war zones; but, aside from those people? Anyone else who has a strong opinionated stance on it? Most of those people just seem to display performative empathy. You heard about centuries-long conflict just the other day as if this event happened in a vacuum, and all of a sudden you have Israel or Palestine flags in your bio as if you think you're really an activist and are actually doing something. When, really, most of those people are just bored and are riding the wave of a trend. They just want to be seen as being "on the good side of history." Well, for me, I don't really give a shit how strangers perceive me; I don't know why so many of you do.

say this same thing to the Houthis

What the fuck. This video astounds me. And the fact that it was posted a year ago baffles me even more.

Today the UN released a report that confirms Famine in Gaza. And Israel once again denies everything. I don't understand why the US government supports genocide.

Article:

View attachment 176390

Source: https://www.ipcinfo.org/ipcinfo-website/countries-in-focus-archive/issue-134/en/

Article:

Israel has strongly rejected the IPC report, with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office calling it an "outright lie."

"Israel does not have a policy of starvation. Israel has a policy of preventing starvation," read a statement from the office.

Israel's Foreign Ministry, meanwhile, said "the entire IPC document is based on Hamas' lies laundered through organizations with vested interests," and claimed that the IPC had changed its "global standard" for determining famine by "cutting the 30% threshold to 15% for this report only."

Source: https://time.com/7311728/gaza-famine-ipc-report-world-leaders-reactions/

The usa has helped SO SO SOOOOOO many countries commit gebocide in the past it is LITERALLY a favorite past time of american poo-liticians. THe founding of the usa involved so many geno cides being conducted against NAtive Americans its not even funny. Every single north american Native American group , even THe Hawaiians and the Eskimo!, has been the victim of one or two geno cides by the hands of the canadian or american government. In the 1400s -1700s the Buffalo Plainso NAtive Americans were probably the tallest humans on Earth, after being genocided they were no longer in the lead. even today the average Buffalo Plains Native Americans have not recovered completely from that ge no cide. The us a government actually funded the transAtlantic Slave Trade one of the largest genocides in human history and not a lick of reparations there either. Prescott Bush who is George Bush's own grandfather , YES GEORGE BUSH'S OWN GRANDFATHER , was convicted of helping the nazis conduct the Holocaust in Germany and ...waht happened to him?.... Nothing. He wasnt forced to pay rep ara tio ns to the families of Jews he played a hand in ending , he wasnt even asked to step down from his position. Many big american companies actually profited from the Holocaust including IBM and they STILL havent paid a lick of reparati ons to the families of the Jews they harmed. In the 70s the usa helped Suharto and Pol Pot conduct exlach of their own ge nocides , once again no reparations. THe usa also helped the countries of French government conduct their geno cide in Algeria and HAiti and other frenchbcolonies too (even today the countrybof Kanaky js being gen o cided by the French govenrment withe the help of the american government), helped the SPanish government diring its genocides in Cuba and the Philippines(the usa. government even went to war with sp ain like twice just to make CUba and the Philippines places that the usa's rich could eventually extract people and resources fr while excluding the Spanish government) , helped the Biritsh government during its genocide of the Iranians and CHinese. And of course the amrlerican gubmint has been the biggest supplier of bot only weapons but also training to the israelis since thel country was founded in 1948 even surpassing the british and germany who are now only the second and third leasing suppliers And of course we have the american government conducting genocides in Vietnam,whuch they forced Vuetnam to pay reparations for through the SOuth Vjetnam debt (W...WTF?!), Iraq - no repa rations, Afghanistan - no reparations, CHile - no repara tions, Guatemala - no rep ar ations , Panama - no reparations, THe COngo -no repa arations, Whatever country Idi Amin is from - they helped him, Kashmir - and no repar atio ns, Korea (thats exactly why North Korea is aalmlost like a. military base right now . THey HAVE to defend themselves. They do not want to get genocided again. GO read about the Bodo League Massacres.), Serbia - no reparations ( the american govenrment even bombed out the CHinese embassy in Serbia and killed some people in it and didnt pay a lick of repara tions lol)
, Kurdistan - no reparations, and sooo many more.

....AND THAT is why the american governmenr loves geno cides so much

 

[DirtCommie]

These two guys really shocked me and made me angry.

...bruh... I CANNOT beleive I jsut saw that....

 

[lotus11]

The part that I don't understand is that there have been various iternational conventions to try to divide the land over the years including an almost 50 50 landsplit of the entire land in 1947, and in 2000 around 90/95 percent of the westback and all of Gaza offered to the Palestinians and in 2008 again a similar agreement including the holy sites being under 'international ownership' ...Israel agreed to all of these but Palestine rejected...now we are faced with the current situation but I can't help thinking if they had just accepted one of these offers, even if maybe they were not 100 percent fair only 95 percent or something like this this conflict could have been avoided.

 

[Adûnâi]

and in 2000 around 90/95 percent of the westback and all of Gaza offered to the Palestinians and in 2008 again a similar agreement including the holy sites being under 'international ownership' ...Israel agreed to all of these but Palestine rejected...

Did Israel give all of the West Bank to the Arabs? Did Israel allow the Arabs to institute their own armed forces? Hell no. The Jews would never go for such a suicidal idea. But that means the Arabs wouldn't exactly have a country because every country needs armed forces.

And then, it kinda makes sense for the Arabs to reject it because they know the Jews can only cope and seethe, but they will never genocide the Arabs. Hell, after 2 years, the Jews are still feeding the Arabs even though the Arabs are vicious murderers who killed thousands of Jews. Israel is a cuck country.

(I know it's a hot take, but come on, look at Artsakh, the Turks genocided 150k Armenians and nobody gave a beep. You probably haven't even heard of it. That's what a successful genocide actually looks like.)

so many geno cides being conducted against NAtive Americans its not even funny. Every single north american Native American group , even THe Hawaiians and the Eskimo!, has been the victim of one or two geno cides by the hands of the canadian or american government. In the 1400s -1700s the Buffalo Plainso NAtive Americans were probably the tallest humans on Earth, after being genocided they were no longer in the lead. even today the average Buffalo Plains Native Americans have not recovered completely from that ge no cide

I'm sorry, but did you miss the memo that the population of:
Japan, Philippines, Afghan and Iraq
grew under the American occupation? They had the perfect opportunity to genocide the people they had conquered, and instead they fostered the conditions to make them have kids. That's the opposite of a genocide. They're even importing millions of Mexicans, as opposed to making Mexico blue-eyed.