Discussion I'm becoming increasingly pro-Palestine

[Pessimist]

I live in Israel but I'm becoming increasingly pro-Palestine. I think the attacks on October 7 were horrific, but it doesn't give Israel the right to carpet bomb the Gaza Strip and kill many thousands of civilians. The far-right government in Israel seems determined to destroy both Hamas and Gaza, opposing any hostage deal that comes with a permanent ceasefire. In the meantime there's a catastrophic humanitarian crisis in Gaza and a threat of famine. Desperate Palestinians who have lost family members join militant groups to fight Israel. And now it looks like Netanyahu is trying to start a war in Lebanon and Iran as well.

 

[Agon321]

I do not support any side.
There is no "good" or "bad" side to this war.
In my opinion, supporting any side is wrong.

The fact is that the West (especially Great Britain) screwed up.
The West left this cauldron in chaos and without a clear solution.
We see the consequences today.

To be honest, I do not know how to solve this problem in a sensible way.
Is it possible in a bloodless way? I do not know. I do not think so.
Violence is inevitable.

 

[yellowjester]

Wow, someone on the internet changing their mind about something. How refreshing. People are so hard-headed these days.

 

[Pessimist]

I do not support any side.
There is no "good" or "bad" side to this war.
In my opinion, supporting any side is wrong.

The fact is that the West (especially Great Britain) screwed up.
The West left this cauldron in chaos and without a clear solution.
We see the consequences today.

To be honest, I do not know how to solve this problem in a sensible way.
Is it possible in a bloodless way? I do not know. I do not think so.
Violence is inevitable.

Is there ever a "good" side?

 

[Agon321]

Is there ever a "good" side?

Subjectively, maybe yes.
Objectively, probably no.

War is not romanticism, but a bloody and brutal fight.
In such a scenario, neither side is sacred.

History is written by the winners.

 

[sugarb]

Is there ever a "good" side?

I mean, yeah. Auschwitz had a pretty clear-cut distinction between good and evil
though if you mean in war specifically and not just in history- sometimes. But even the most justified and "good" sides will have individuals among them who're bad in some way

 

[jar-baby]

I don't feel like I'm educated enough to have a strong stance on the issue but I know you've made a lot of pro-Israel posts in the past (that I would've thought indicated dogmatism or at least intransigence), so props for being able to alter your position.

 

[LiuKang]

> colonises land with no claim
> attacks first
> begins losing war
> calls it genocide

 

[Aloneandinpain]

Even other Muslim countries hate Palestinians. I'm no fan of Israel but there's no greater evil on this earth than Islam

 

[astr4]

imagine if i pulled up to ur house and i was like bro this is my god given house tho the british decided it :/

and then u started punching me bc hey i'm literally squatting in ur house

but the world calls me the victim and you the villain bc ur muslim and that's a no-go

feelsbadman

 

[real human being]

I live in Israel but I'm becoming increasingly pro-Palestine. I think the attacks on October 7 were horrific, but it doesn't give Israel the right to carpet bomb the Gaza Strip and kill many thousands of civilians. The far-right government in Israel seems determined to destroy both Hamas and Gaza, opposing any hostage deal that comes with a permanent ceasefire. In the meantime there's a catastrophic humanitarian crisis in Gaza and a threat of famine. Desperate Palestinians who have lost family members join militant groups to fight Israel. And now it looks like Netanyahu is trying to start a war in Lebanon and Iran as well.

Wow, during our discussion you seemed so hard headed I didn't think you could change your mind.

 

[IBM0000]

Wow, during our discussion you seemed so hard headed I didn't think you could change your mind.

When society tells you one thing, you tend to really believe it....But when YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES as someone who is suicidal due to multiutdes of reasons come into effect, you doubt these assumptions. You go through allll the dumb stages of despair. And finally, you reach acceptance. And pessismist, I am so happy for you :). You are really strong in that sense, that you overcame the israeli propaganda to have become someone better for society. Good for you.

Even other Muslim countries hate Palestinians. I'm no fan of Israel but there's no greater evil on this earth than Islam

That's not true. If you measure evil on standard measures and historical ones, Muslims werent responsible for both world wars. Not responsible for colonization of British India and the insane famine that followed. Not for the colonization of any country in modern history. Not for the current system that causes millions to die due to diseases, hunger and thirst. I am sorry, but I don't think it's fair that one 9/11 equals all that bs. Not even a million 9/11's. btw. Most 9/11 hijackers were saudi, and the us LOVES the saudis and never invaded saudia and their other middle east "allies".

 

[Pessimist]

Wow, during our discussion you seemed so hard headed I didn't think you could change your mind.

My disapproval of war crimes in Gaza doesn't mean that I agree with all of your positions. I remember that you made some baseless claims, including the idea that the UN is biased in favor of Israel (despite its known anti-Israel bias):

UN Watch Database

Each year, the UN General Assembly condemns Israel 20 times more than Iran, Syria & North Korea. Dictatorships like China, Venezuela & Saudi Arabia dominate key UN human rights bodies. See UN Watch’s latest facts & figures: unwatch.org/database.

unwatch.org

Systemic Anti-Israel Bias in the United Nations Institutional Apparatus - kohelet

New policy paper addresses systemic anti-Israel bias within the United Nations (UN) institutional apparatus which manifests in a number of areas.

www.kohelet.org.il

AIPAC Memo - Anti-Israel Action at the U.N. Since October 7 - February 2024.pdf | Powered by Box

aipacorg.app.box.com

 

[real human being]

My disapproval of war crimes in Gaza doesn't mean that I agree with all of your positions. I remember that you made some baseless claims, including the idea that the UN is biased in favor of Israel (despite its known anti-Israel bias):

UN Watch Database

Each year, the UN General Assembly condemns Israel 20 times more than Iran, Syria & North Korea. Dictatorships like China, Venezuela & Saudi Arabia dominate key UN human rights bodies. See UN Watch’s latest facts & figures: unwatch.org/database.

unwatch.org

Systemic Anti-Israel Bias in the United Nations Institutional Apparatus - kohelet

New policy paper addresses systemic anti-Israel bias within the United Nations (UN) institutional apparatus which manifests in a number of areas.

www.kohelet.org.il

AIPAC Memo - Anti-Israel Action at the U.N. Since October 7 - February 2024.pdf | Powered by Box

aipacorg.app.box.com

I'll take what I can get

 

[sh1ttynerd]

Is there ever a "good" side?

the only side that contains good are the civillians that dont deserve to be harmed due to some petty fight between 2 countries, no one deserves war. War is a product of bloodshed, it should not be idolized.

 

[lamargue]

i've often heard that a pro-Palestinian position reflects a desire to abolish the Jewish state entirely, which obviously entails that an Islamic theocracy be established in its place. do you think a two-state solution is sufficiently 'pro-Palestinian'? or is it just a condemnation of Likud nationalism?

 

[Pessimist]

i've often heard that a pro-Palestinian position reflects a desire to abolish the Jewish state entirely, which obviously entails that an Islamic theocracy be established in its place. do you think a two-state solution is sufficiently 'pro-Palestinian'? or is it just a condemnation of Likud nationalism?

These are radical anti-Zionists who support the Islamist position of Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. They are often antisemitic and go to extreme lengths to demonize Israel and promote disinformation. You can support the Palestinian people without being embarrassingly obsessed and homicidal towards Israel.

 

[noname223]

These two guys really shocked me and made me angry.

 

[Davey40210]

There is no good or evil. There is just the powerful and the powerless. Good or evil is a human construct and also different depending on the culture you grew up in.

As for wars. People think they fight for their country but they are fighting for their overlords, who are not even in their country in most cases.

I usually regard people who take sides in wars as inherently dumb. Sorry perhaps that makes me dumb. I wont go into the Nazis as someone commented as then I will get immediately ostracized, but let me just say that I think not all Nazis were bad people. Just like the Israelians or Palestinians. Even the ones committing the cruelest acts. Check the Stanly Milgram experiments or read the book by Jan de Laender "Psychology of human cruelty". Any human has the potential to be cruel beyond belief given the right circumstances.

You think you cant cut someone's head off? Wait until they raped and killed your entire family. You think you cant push the button in a gas chamber? Wait until you are brainwashed for years that those people are the devil.

Or perhaps that is just my childhood talking where I tried to make sense of all the cruel humans around me.
One other thing - the Ukraine war. When I see the normal civilians that die "defending their country" being called heros it fills me with disgust. It is so different to what everyone around me is saying it makes me realize how weird I am.

No, he is not a hero. Either he was not allowed to leave the country (Ukraine placed restrictions on men leaving the country and only rich people can bypass it) or he does not have the ability to take his loved ones out of the country so he has to stay. So at best he is a victim.

And why a hero? Because he killed a bunch of other humans who just happen to be Russian and were also forced or brainwashed?

You are a hero if you leave the country. Or if you refuse to fight. That is a hero to me.

If you have the ability to take yourself and your loved ones out of the country and you still stay to fight and die, I'm sorry but you are brainwashed and possibly stupid.

That being said if they invade the UK I will happily fight cause its a great way to CTB.

 

[rebelnow111]

I live in Israel but I'm becoming increasingly pro-Palestine. I think the attacks on October 7 were horrific, but it doesn't give Israel the right to carpet bomb the Gaza Strip and kill many thousands of civilians. The far-right government in Israel seems determined to destroy both Hamas and Gaza, opposing any hostage deal that comes with a permanent ceasefire. In the meantime there's a catastrophic humanitarian crisis in Gaza and a threat of famine. Desperate Palestinians who have lost family members join militant groups to fight Israel. And now it looks like Netanyahu is trying to start a war in Lebanon and Iran as well.

i agree supporting palestimne is right in this situation, the israeli government is facist and racist

 

[IBM0000]

A-MA-ZING video.

 

[Pessimist]

These two guys really shocked me and made me angry.

Typical Ben-Gvir/Smotrich supporters. I love how they claim to speak for all Israelis and then laugh at Barak Ravid and people with "Meretz shirts".

 

[Downdraft]

That's not true. If you measure evil on standard measures and historical ones, Muslims werent responsible for both world wars. Not responsible for colonization of British India and the insane famine that followed. Not for the colonization of any country in modern history. Not for the current system that causes millions to die due to diseases, hunger and thirst. I am sorry, but I don't think it's fair that one 9/11 equals all that bs. Not even a million 9/11's. btw. Most 9/11 hijackers were saudi, and the us LOVES the saudis and never invaded saudia and their other middle east "allies".

They literally attempted many of this and more, but you know that. Using the US as an example of the West as a whole when many countries try to avoid their models, or to try to patch an evil with another one is dishonest. They not having the US power doesn't mean they never wanted to engage on it, they just didn't have as many chances.

Do I have to remind you the horrors some people live in Islamic land? The corruption and mass-poverty? The radicalization and opression of groups in some, or the police dictatorships?

If Islam is clearly so much better than the West, I highly encourage you to migrate and embrace their traditions (ironic IRL they're the ones escaping those horrors and come to the West for a better life).

I find your comparison distasteful for people who experienced them.

My disapproval of war crimes in Gaza doesn't mean that I agree with all of your positions. I remember that you made some baseless claims, including the idea that the UN is biased in favor of Israel (despite its known anti-Israel bias):

BTW, it doesn't seem too much you changed your mind, you never approved what govt was doing in first place. You always disliked the Gaza situation as you said in many posts and had a strong distaste for Netanyahu. In fact to me this post looks the same you've been saying since you never liked this war in first place, but people are only greeting you now because you didn't say being minimally pro-Israel despite the idea being the exact same lol.

People are trivial to manipulate. A pair of words change the perception of an identical idea. And to think this user has been called bot, propaganda machine and all kinds of things just because it didn't agree on every single minor thing, when he fucking agreed with you in first place!

 

[Pessimist]

BTW, it doesn't seem too much you changed your mind, you never approved what govt was doing in first place. You always disliked the Gaza situation as you said in many posts and had a strong distaste for Netanyahu. In fact to me this post looks the same you've been saying since you never liked this war in first place, but people are only greeting you now because you didn't say being minimally pro-Israel despite the idea being the exact same lol.

People are trivial to manipulate. A pair of words change the perception of an identical idea. And to think this user has been called bot, propaganda machine and all kinds of things just because it didn't agree on every single minor thing, when he fucking agreed with you in first place!

I never liked Netanyahu, but at the start of the war I agreed with his position that Hamas should be eliminated. Nowadays, I strongly oppose the bombing campaign in Gaza. I think that my views have changed, but you bring an interesting point.