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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

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Apr 15, 2024
2,088
I do actually agree that huge amounts of blame does lie with our culture, our upbringing, our shitty circumstances.
I try not to blame and judge culture, upbringing etc. either. The way I am cannot be linked directly to one person. Some have said I became bad at math as a kid later because of a certain teacher I had, but I don't like that thought. I certainly don't think that teacher should be preached at, and punished for now having permanently altered the course of my career life.
So I told my case worker a few weeks ago Id like to go back to NYC, and get back on the methadone program. I could tell that was looked down on. She is a wonderful woman, but I can tell thats not something that is really acceptable in here mental programming. Indeed last time I was there I was compelled to go to outpatient programs, and they looked down on it also, but couldn't stop me. I think Ive made it to a point that if Im not going to ctb, I am going to check out of society. Im gonna trash a bunch of my belongings, and even my car at some point will be on the chopping block. These are things that have to be maintained through economic slavery basically is my though on that. There is no point in my participation with society anymore is how I feel these days. If you look at a good number of drug users you will see people who have had some really harsh lives. If like myself we are turning to drugs to be numb, or gain chemical happiness the mental health system has failed us.They have failed us, and will continue to fail us, because they are more worried about trying to dictate what out behaviors look like; namely abstinence from drugs. So yeah the methadone program is legal. I dont want to be a criminal. Its a work around as far as Im concerned. Mental health could easily prescribe me something, but they have that mold they want me to fit in apparently. Thanks for reading this.
I agree with this. They just want to control us. I have also gotten rid of most of my possessions. The only happiness I get now is from drugs or watching movies and learning things online for fun. But none of these things make me a "functional adult", so it's considered "evil", "lazy", "weak" by other people. If I were to abstain (which they expect) then I feel intense cravings or a sense of nothing to look forward to and lose any and all motivation. And that would be "immoral" too. So I'm fucked. These same "normal" functional people should try extreme calorie restriction with just salad or a sensory deprivation room for a week, to know how "easy" it feels for an addict to "just say no" and try to find happiness in "simple things".
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
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That's my whole point: why do we have this obsessionn with finding blame, especially judging others? What if things just are and just happen? Should be morally blame weather patterns for creating hurricanes?

This turned into an essay... sorry!

As I see it, a couple of reasons. One is safety I suppose. If a plane crashes, we don't just go- 'Oh, what a shame.' We try to figure out why. Was it pilot error? But then- what confused them to make that error? Was it mechanical or, a design flaw? Will it affect other planes and, other people? How can we prevent this happening again?

If it's found to be gross negligence by a person or company- they get named, shamed and punished in some way often... in theory anyway.

Look at the Boeing Max crashes. They altered their planes to save fuel but be horribly un-aerodynamic. Snuck in an automated computer system to compensate. Didn't fully inform the pilots. Had the system (MCAS) run off a single sensor. Two crashes later and 346 people dead.

What's the proper way to deal with something like that? Just accept it as bad luck? Clearly not- the reason needs to be discovered in order to prevent more deaths. Even when we have a mechanical culprit- is that enough? Shouldn't we look at the kind of work culture that allows this kind of shit to happen?

That's where personality disorders come into play- possibly. Are we happy with people who put profit over safety being in control of an industry that is responsible for millions of our lives? Surely, the very act of putting themeselves and shareholders portfolios over the lives of their passengers and employees suggests an amount of sociopathy?

As it is, the CEO at the time did eventually leave, with a multi million pound bonus, shares etc. Probably far more than the individuals got in compensation for their family members dieing. But- there we go- the world's f*cked up.

There have been other cases sort of similar though. The Smiler crash at Alton Towers was found to be human error. But, they also blamed the company itself. The culture there pushing mechanics to keep rides open again pushed safety towards the back. Grenfell Tower is another one (I mostly know UK examples.) But, there are loads- Chernobyl.

They aren't freak accidents like a hurricane! They happen because very often in the case of accidents, companies knowingly put profits over safety. Companies are made up of people. People are to blame when they knowingly break safety regulations.

It's important to identify these patterns and people because they put us all at risk. As to whether we should just accept them as we would a bad storm I mean- would you? If a loved one of yours died painfully because a company cut corners and knowingly released an unsafe product, would you be ok with that? Wouldn't you want to know if someone was to blame? If you lost a limb to a faulty product, wouldn't you want it taken off the shelves so that other people don't get hurt? Wouldn't you want to know how it ended up being sold to you?

It's not so massively different with people. Initially, when young teenage girls (mainly) reported to police that a guy had compromising photographs of them and was now blackmailing them for more, they weren't taken seriously. Guys weren't taken seriously when they went to their doctors with anoerexia. Coercive control wasn't really acknowledged as a form of abuse in domestic violence cases. Sexual harrassment in the workplace had gone on rife it seems. Do we just let these things continue? We shouldn't- because, people are suffering and, more are at risk.

Generally speaking, brave people come forward to complain about a perpetraitor and/ or the system that was there to protect them, that failed. Again though- we shouldn't leave it at that. Why were those girls/ women being ignored? Was it a culture that swept stuff like that under the carpet? Why weren't guys being given the same support women were with anoerexia? (One guy said, they gave him a leaflet which in part described that menstruation stopping can be a symptom!) We need to challenge stereotypes and the way we interact with one another when it isn't doing a good enough job.

While it might seem extreme, villainizing people shows the public's extreme reaction to something. Jimmy Saville is widely regarded as a monster now. If we'd just been indifferent towards his crimes, it would have sent a clear signal to those wanting to act in a similar way that they'll likely get away with it! By not examining the workplaces as to how and why they let this happen, it lets them off the hook too. The hope is- by exposing these things. By provoking public disgust, it holds people accountable. Who wants their family members to be sexually assaulted while in hospital or, even at the morgue? Wouldn't you prefer to be protected from people like that?

Villainizing them may seem cruel and it certainly is if we're wrong about them. But, it tends to ensure we take their threat seriously. And some of them are a very real threat.

People reporting widely on coercive control in relationships has raised more awareness of it. That's important because it doesn't present like a black eye and a few fractured ribs. It's far more insiduous. I personally believe it can give someone strength to read about things like gas lighting, triangulation and, narcissism in general. Because, it may make them suspect that that is what they're going through.

It was such a weird relief for me to finally learn about narcissism because, all of the person's behaviour I struggled with was described. My diagnosis of them may not even be accurate of course but, it made me feel validated. There was at least some form of reason for it now. At the time, I actually considered that I may have slept walked and done all these things they were accusing me of! They can absolutely make you feel like the crazy one. I dread to think what they're like in romantic relationships. (Not all people with NPD. Just the ones who demonstrate all the symptoms.)

More importantly though, by raising awareness, it means people can be aware of red flags early on with someone. They might just save themselves a lot of pain if they get out in time. It could even save their life. The most extreme cases kill their partners!

It's like any 'dangerous' animal really. Wouldn't you prefer to be taught not to try petting a tarantula before it bit you?

Of course, the problem for people with some personality disorders is that they can feel villainized. Which is really unfortunate if they aren't behaving in those ways.

As to why we villainize though. I think you almost need to be on the receiving end to understand. If you could pinpoint your ideation to the actions of an individual. If you felt like your time with them had ruined your life. Destroyed your confidence. Destroyed your trust in others. Made you fearful and unhappy, do you think you could still view them so objectively? While they go on to live seemingly care free.

We absolutely do need to view 'them' as people of course. Very possibly victims themselves. They deserve help too, just as much as anyone else. However, I tend to go with: 'A dog that bites is a dog that bites' ultimately. If you are likely to be on the receiving end, you may not feel quite so sympathetic! While we shouldn't just label them as bad publicly, we may make a mental note to steer clear and/ or keep our loved ones clear of them.

In general though, we call someone a 'monster' because we don't want to believe we are like them in any way. It can be safer to hope they are an anomoly. I doubt we'll ever agree that they aren't at least in part to blame though.

I've taken far far too many words to say that we villainize for practical purposes. It makes us all aware of a threat. It prompts us to try and curb their behaviour and it warns others who want to behave as they have- that it won't be tolerated. So- even if you're right. Even if say a paedophile is incapable of not raping a child- society warns that they will be villified and hated if they do. Is that so bad if it puts them off doing it?
 
KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Visionary
Apr 15, 2024
2,088
As to why we villainize though. I think you almost need to be on the receiving end to understand. If you could pinpoint your ideation to the actions of an individual. If you felt like your time with them had ruined your life. Destroyed your confidence. Destroyed your trust in others. Made you fearful and unhappy, do you think you could still view them so objectively? While they go on to live seemingly care free.
No, it was actually extremely freeing to learn that people are just programmed to do the things they do. If they hurt me, it might be because they acted from certain neurons firings in certain parts of their brains. For far too long I was upset with anger, hate, sorrow and wishing I could have done things differently for a better outcome.
I've taken far far too many words to say that we villainize for practical purposes. It makes us all aware of a threat. It prompts us to try and curb their behaviour and it warns others who want to behave as they have- that it won't be tolerated. So- even if you're right. Even if say a paedophile is incapable of not raping a child- society warns that they will be villified and hated if they do. Is that so bad if it puts them off doing it?
It doesn't though. It just makes them go underground and do harmful things secretly. They learn to avoid authorities. Wouldn't it be a better society if pedos can come forward without being villainized, so we can treat their problem? Some do that approach, and it works better than prison systems.
This turned into an essay... sorry!

As I see it, a couple of reasons. One is safety I suppose. If a plane crashes, we don't just go- 'Oh, what a shame.' We try to figure out why. Was it pilot error? But then- what confused them to make that error? Was it mechanical or, a design flaw? Will it affect other planes and, other people? How can we prevent this happening again?

If it's found to be gross negligence by a person or company- they get named, shamed and punished in some way often... in theory anyway.

Look at the Boeing Max crashes. They altered their planes to save fuel but be horribly un-aerodynamic. Snuck in an automated computer system to compensate. Didn't fully inform the pilots. Had the system (MCAS) run off a single sensor. Two crashes later and 346 people dead.

What's the proper way to deal with something like that? Just accept it as bad luck? Clearly not- the reason needs to be discovered in order to prevent more deaths. Even when we have a mechanical culprit- is that enough? Shouldn't we look at the kind of work culture that allows this kind of shit to happen?

That's where personality disorders come into play- possibly. Are we happy with people who put profit over safety being in control of an industry that is responsible for millions of our lives? Surely, the very act of putting themeselves and shareholders portfolios over the lives of their passengers and employees suggests an amount of sociopathy?

As it is, the CEO at the time did eventually leave, with a multi million pound bonus, shares etc. Probably far more than the individuals got in compensation for their family members dieing. But- there we go- the world's f*cked up.

There have been other cases sort of similar though. The Smiler crash at Alton Towers was found to be human error. But, they also blamed the company itself. The culture there pushing mechanics to keep rides open again pushed safety towards the back. Grenfell Tower is another one (I mostly know UK examples.) But, there are loads- Chernobyl.

They aren't freak accidents like a hurricane! They happen because very often in the case of accidents, companies knowingly put profits over safety. Companies are made up of people. People are to blame when they knowingly break safety regulations.

It's important to identify these patterns and people because they put us all at risk. As to whether we should just accept them as we would a bad storm I mean- would you? If a loved one of yours died painfully because a company cut corners and knowingly released an unsafe product, would you be ok with that? Wouldn't you want to know if someone was to blame? If you lost a limb to a faulty product, wouldn't you want it taken off the shelves so that other people don't get hurt? Wouldn't you want to know how it ended up being sold to you?

It's not so massively different with people. Initially, when young teenage girls (mainly) reported to police that a guy had compromising photographs of them and was now blackmailing them for more, they weren't taken seriously. Guys weren't taken seriously when they went to their doctors with anoerexia. Coercive control wasn't really acknowledged as a form of abuse in domestic violence cases. Sexual harrassment in the workplace had gone on rife it seems. Do we just let these things continue? We shouldn't- because, people are suffering and, more are at risk.

Generally speaking, brave people come forward to complain about a perpetraitor and/ or the system that was there to protect them, that failed. Again though- we shouldn't leave it at that. Why were those girls/ women being ignored? Was it a culture that swept stuff like that under the carpet? Why weren't guys being given the same support women were with anoerexia? (One guy said, they gave him a leaflet which in part described that menstruation stopping can be a symptom!) We need to challenge stereotypes and the way we interact with one another when it isn't doing a good enough job.

While it might seem extreme, villainizing people shows the public's extreme reaction to something. Jimmy Saville is widely regarded as a monster now. If we'd just been indifferent towards his crimes, it would have sent a clear signal to those wanting to act in a similar way that they'll likely get away with it! By not examining the workplaces as to how and why they let this happen, it lets them off the hook too. The hope is- by exposing these things. By provoking public disgust, it holds people accountable. Who wants their family members to be sexually assaulted while in hospital or, even at the morgue? Wouldn't you prefer to be protected from people like that?

Villainizing them may seem cruel and it certainly is if we're wrong about them. But, it tends to ensure we take their threat seriously. And some of them are a very real threat.

People reporting widely on coercive control in relationships has raised more awareness of it. That's important because it doesn't present like a black eye and a few fractured ribs. It's far more insiduous. I personally believe it can give someone strength to read about things like gas lighting, triangulation and, narcissism in general. Because, it may make them suspect that that is what they're going through.

It was such a weird relief for me to finally learn about narcissism because, all of the person's behaviour I struggled with was described. My diagnosis of them may not even be accurate of course but, it made me feel validated. There was at least some form of reason for it now. At the time, I actually considered that I may have slept walked and done all these things they were accusing me of! They can absolutely make you feel like the crazy one. I dread to think what they're like in romantic relationships. (Not all people with NPD. Just the ones who demonstrate all the symptoms.)

More importantly though, by raising awareness, it means people can be aware of red flags early on with someone. They might just save themselves a lot of pain if they get out in time. It could even save their life. The most extreme cases kill their partners!

It's like any 'dangerous' animal really. Wouldn't you prefer to be taught not to try petting a tarantula before it bit you?

Of course, the problem for people with some personality disorders is that they can feel villainized. Which is really unfortunate if they aren't behaving in those ways.

As to why we villainize though. I think you almost need to be on the receiving end to understand. If you could pinpoint your ideation to the actions of an individual. If you felt like your time with them had ruined your life. Destroyed your confidence. Destroyed your trust in others. Made you fearful and unhappy, do you think you could still view them so objectively? While they go on to live seemingly care free.

We absolutely do need to view 'them' as people of course. Very possibly victims themselves. They deserve help too, just as much as anyone else. However, I tend to go with: 'A dog that bites is a dog that bites' ultimately. If you are likely to be on the receiving end, you may not feel quite so sympathetic! While we shouldn't just label them as bad publicly, we may make a mental note to steer clear and/ or keep our loved ones clear of them.

In general though, we call someone a 'monster' because we don't want to believe we are like them in any way. It can be safer to hope they are an anomoly. I doubt we'll ever agree that they aren't at least in part to blame though.

I've taken far far too many words to say that we villainize for practical purposes. It makes us all aware of a threat. It prompts us to try and curb their behaviour and it warns others who want to behave as they have- that it won't be tolerated. So- even if you're right. Even if say a paedophile is incapable of not raping a child- society warns that they will be villified and hated if they do. Is that so bad if it puts them off doing it?
I totally agree that we should be allowed to separate from people, even for no reason at all. Freedom of assembly, freedom of association/dissasociation! I'm not against findig error and fixing it either. But villainizing people doesn't work. It just makes them want to avoid admitting error. We should all be in prison basically then. Because we have all neglected or hurt someone. Funny, all these thousands of years with governments killing, flogging, fining and imprisoning people, and it hasn't made humanity less violent and evil.
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
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Wouldn't it be a better society if pedos can come forward without being villainized, so we can treat their problem? Some do that approach, and it works better than prison systems.

Yes- that would be great. Preferably BEFORE they've taken actions to hurt a child. That's assuming then that they do in fact realise they have a problem- I thought your argument was that it was all unconscious?

Plus, that they do in fact want help to curb their desires. Some do. Some definitely don't. But sure, if they come forward at all- it's presumably because they want to be stopped. Of course we should praise that.

If they are caught though or, eventually discovered with great stashes of illegal porn. With someone like Saville, there were hundreds of victims. 177 people have come forward. Even if you don't want to view the man as a villain, the systems that were supposed to keep people safe failed astronomically. It's at least 'monstrous' that all that was enabled. By hospitals and morgues even!

You absolutely have a point though. I think it was in the book: 'The Banality of Evil' where they argued that it's so harmful for humans/ society to view certain people as 'monstrous' or, 'other'. We do it to try and distance ourselves from them but, it's important to realise that we likely all have the potential to do evil acts. Plus that perpetrators won't necessarily seem 'monstrous'. They could easily come across normal or, even likeable.

And yes, I've heard that before. That other systems in prisons to rehabilitate rather than punish work better. I do actually admire people who want to give others chances etc. I just don't have that trust in people I suppose. I wonder if a leopard can change its spots.

Plus, I'd rather just keep away from all people ultimately! A big part of me doesn't care how society goes about trying to solve it's problems. I'm so tired of being any part of it.

I'm curious I suppose. Have these beliefs relieved you of any self guilt you may have had? Presumably, we all have things we regret having done. Have they made you more accepting of yourself? If indeed you had shame or guilt before that is. Again, I would imagine most of us have something or other.

Do you ever resist doing things you massively want to do but, know you shouldn't? What part of you enables you do do that? Is it an unconscious decision? Is it drawing from social conditioning? Is it really pure chance whether you relent and, do the thing you're not supposed to do or, resist? I suppose I'm curious as to what you consider 'unconscious' behaviour. Presuming you do do the occasional thing that's bad for you and/ or others.

So- as an example- I know I have a problem with binging. Some foods are definite triggers for me. If I buy a packet of biscuits- that will put me in extreme 'danger'. So- that's my first conscious decision- if I don't want the risk of binging, I must choose not to buy the whole pack of biscuits. I don't think I've ever done shopping in an unconscious state. If something goes wrong or, I weaken with the foolish notion I will be able to control myself. It's still a decision. I know what I'm like. The next thing would be to take a couple out, put the rest back in the cupboard. Once I have them though- I get to choose which part of my brain I act on. The 'f*ck it! I don't care. I'm just going to binge. Or, the- You need to resist this. It will only help in the short-term. It will make you want to binge again tomorrow and you'll regret the whole thing. I see that as a choice. Both those 'states' exist in my brain. It's my choice which one I act on.

Whether a paedophile sees a specialist for help or carries on in private is a choice- again. I'll definitely concede that it will be an 'easier' choice than others for some. They may have been raised to know that it's morally wrong.

So, for me, we're back to- is it 'monstrous' to have those THOUGHTS/ desires- no. It's probably not our fault. Is it monstrous to ACT on them- in certain circumstances- depending on the degree of harm we cause to others- I'd still argue- yes. As a society, would it be better if we didn't view people who offend as 'monsters' and, make more effort to understand and rahabilitate them? Probably.

I'll also tag on the end. Our anger at these people- especially if we are victims, know victims or empathise with victims surely ties in with a primal urge to protect ourselves and others from harm. Plus, maybe a desire for revenge. Those impulses are also extremely strong. Perhaps also unconscious to some extent.

But, your insistance presumably is that we need to use reason to overcome those desires (for retribution/ revenge.) So- presumably then as humans, we are capable of modifying our more harmful behaviour when we know it's there? So- why couldn't they? Why aren't we putting the same expectation on them? Surely, the gut reaction when witnessing violence of any form towards another is to stop it but, who doesn't have the adrenaline to want to take it further and punish? Especially in the moment. Your argument is that we can and should resist that urge with reasoning. So- it's possible- right? Otherwise, it's a double standard. They can't help being abusive and violent towards others but, we can stop ourselves wanting to hurt them? Why are you certain we're not then in the grips of an unconscious and unstoppable urge to do something?
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

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Apr 15, 2024
2,088
Yes- that would be great. Preferably BEFORE they've taken actions to hurt a child. That's assuming then that they do in fact realise they have a problem- I thought your argument was that it was all unconscious?

Plus, that they do in fact want help to curb their desires. Some do. Some definitely don't. But sure, if they come forward at all- it's presumably because they want to be stopped. Of course we should praise that.

If they are caught though or, eventually discovered with great stashes of illegal porn. With someone like Saville, there were hundreds of victims. 177 people have come forward. Even if you don't want to view the man as a villain, the systems that were supposed to keep people safe failed astronomically. It's at least 'monstrous' that all that was enabled. By hospitals and morgues even!

You absolutely have a point though. I think it was in the book: 'The Banality of Evil' where they argued that it's so harmful for humans/ society to view certain people as 'monstrous' or, 'other'. We do it to try and distance ourselves from them but, it's important to realise that we likely all have the potential to do evil acts. Plus that perpetrators won't necessarily seem 'monstrous'. They could easily come across normal or, even likeable.
I don't mean unconscious as in they are in blackout. I mean, they act according to what their specific neurons are doing in the prefrontal cortex or limbic system. Some may not even know what they are doing is "evil" until others call it evil. And it also depends on their levels of empathy. There is also the phenomenon of acting according to instinct and then justifying it post hoc. You mentioned it: that we are all capable of evil and harm, at least to some we have told ourselves "deserve" it. The Nazis may really have convinced themselves that Jews were a threat. Basically how we see the Nazis, that's how Nazis saw the Jews (i.e. as pure evil that must be stopped). Humans judging other humans is a very dangerous thing.
And yes, I've heard that before. That other systems in prisons to rehabilitate rather than punish work better. I do actually admire people who want to give others chances etc. I just don't have that trust in people I suppose. I wonder if a leopard can change its spots.
I also doubt it, in some cases. But in those cases, just keep away from the leopards habitat. But is there really a need to villainize it beyond "beware of this predator"? As you said, the failure is also in how we protect from danger. In the case of child molesting we have decided that having a system which entrusts our children with strangers 8 hours a day to ensure education is more important than complete sheltering from risks of predation. Unfortunately, most child molesting happens in schools or in the extended family. But we have decided that parents should have other adults help them raise and educate their kids.
Plus, I'd rather just keep away from all people ultimately! A big part of me doesn't care how society goes about trying to solve it's problems. I'm so tired of being any part of it.
Same. But on the other hand, human cooperation has given us technology that makes life easier. Toilets, food processing and heating, electricity, entertainment etc.
I'm curious I suppose. Have these beliefs relieved you of any self guilt you may have had? Presumably, we all have things we regret having done. Have they made you more accepting of yourself? If indeed you had shame or guilt before that is. Again, I would imagine most of us have something or other.
A bit. But it has actually helped me be more accepting of others more than of myself (because I still try to be more self-critical in order to be less selfish). But people who have hurt me, I now see as mere machines or puppets who were programmed to do so without any choice. It helps me move on or dwell too much on why. These changes in beliefs have worked better than any and all therapy could ever have done. I am relieved also that there was nothing I could have said or done differently, because it was all predestined. I don't dwell on regrets of the past because those are just hypotheticals.
 
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deep-sleeper

deep-sleeper

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Aug 16, 2025
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Because people can't understand an illness that they can't physically see

And this doesn't just go for "normal" people, despite being mentally ill myself. I will never truly understand your mind, even if I wanted to, the same goes for you
 
KillingPain267

KillingPain267

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Apr 15, 2024
2,088
Do you ever resist doing things you massively want to do but, know you shouldn't? What part of you enables you do do that? Is it an unconscious decision? Is it drawing from social conditioning? Is it really pure chance whether you relent and, do the thing you're not supposed to do or, resist? I suppose I'm curious as to what you consider 'unconscious' behaviour. Presuming you do do the occasional thing that's bad for you and/ or others.
As an addict I fight with cravings for drugs. I have both resisted and given in. What decides it is a tug-of-war between the prefrontal cortex and other more instinctual parts of my brain, with a mix thrown in from social conditioning and the societal system. I can imagine that if I was born with a psychopathic brain without empathy, had a gun, and there were no legal ramifications, that I would have shot every bully since I was a kid and everyone else merely annoying me. But those factors outside my control prevented me. What I mean by unconscious is more the fact that we give reasons for the things we do, but in reality it might be other factors beyond our control that caused us to do those things. For example, there was a study of judges extending parole or not. It was shown that there was a massive factor in whether a convict went back to prison or not all based on if the judge had had lunch or not. So mere glucose levels decided the fate of the convicts. But when the judges were asked why they extended the parole or not, they gave answers mentioning theories on judicial philosophy from back in law school, lol. In other words, they didn't actually know why they decided the way they did.
So- as an example- I know I have a problem with binging. Some foods are definite triggers for me. If I buy a packet of biscuits- that will put me in extreme 'danger'. So- that's my first conscious decision- if I don't want the risk of binging, I must choose not to buy the whole pack of biscuits. I don't think I've ever done shopping in an unconscious state. If something goes wrong or, I weaken with the foolish notion I will be able to control myself. It's still a decision. I know what I'm like. The next thing would be to take a couple out, put the rest back in the cupboard. Once I have them though- I get to choose which part of my brain I act on. The 'f*ck it! I don't care. I'm just going to binge. Or, the- You need to resist this. It will only help in the short-term. It will make you want to binge again tomorrow and you'll regret the whole thing. I see that as a choice. Both those 'states' exist in my brain. It's my choice which one I act on.
But you had no choice between being a biscuit binger vs. a biscuit moderation enjoyer. It's the exact same thing with my drugs and alcohol. But what decides me one day going "fuck it" can be almost anything. Many things I'm probably not aware of, such as the experiment with judges handing out parole extensions based on whether they had lunch or not before the hearing.
I'll also tag on the end. Our anger at these people- especially if we are victims, know victims or empathise with victims surely ties in with a primal urge to protect ourselves and others from harm. Plus, maybe a desire for revenge. Those impulses are also extremely strong. Perhaps also unconscious to some extent.
I totally agree. The mistake though (and that's all my point was), is to conflate our emotional outrage and revenge with actual justice or harm reduction and rehabilitation (if possible).
But, your insistance presumably is that we need to use reason to overcome those desires (for retribution/ revenge.) So- presumably then as humans, we are capable of modifying our more harmful behaviour when we know it's there? So- why couldn't they? Why aren't we putting the same expectation on them? Surely, the gut reaction when witnessing violence of any form towards another is to stop it but, who doesn't have the adrenaline to want to take it further and punish? Especially in the moment. Your argument is that we can and should resist that urge with reasoning. So- it's possible- right? Otherwise, it's a double standard. They can't help being abusive and violent towards others but, we can stop ourselves wanting to hurt them? Why are you certain we're not then in the grips of an unconscious and unstoppable urge to do something?
Yeah, some of us are wired and conditioned to respond more emotionally. But if we who are more wired and conditioned to act on reason respond based on what scientifically works, it will reduce or at least prevent victims better than "hurting the monster by becoming like the monster".
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
12,772
But is there really a need to villainize it beyond "beware of this predator"?

Maybe not for everyone. Like you say- people are waking up to the idea that we need to understand these people, rather than see them as 'other' and, monstrous.

It's maybe down to the individual. Even victims of heinous crimes. Think Chris Watts. Murdered his pregnant wife and two young children. Dumped his children's bodies in huge oil silos. Her parents didn't actually want the death penalty for him. Although, perhaps they thought justice would be better served if he had the rest of his life to remember what he'd done.

I guess it's partly, whatever helps the victims of these people too. Personally though, I can understand why they would see the perpetrator's actions as monstrous at least, if not the perpetrator themselves.

I don't know really. Is: 'Keep away from that person' enough of a deterrent? Plus, while it's horrible to admit it, our minds will jump so readily to hate. To protecting our own from outside threats. Why is hatred preventable for our brains but, commiting say violent crime is unpreventable for theirs? Because, we're conscious and able to change? How do you know?

The same influences that have been pressing on them to commit crime could well have been pressing on us. I've heard reasonably prejudiced things growing up- homophobic, racist, sexist sometimes. Does that mean I'm all those things? I'll admit that some thoughts pop in there sometimes- but I challenge them.

Again, I don't believe that people don't have at least hesitation over doing something they know is wrong. The whole fact they will try to hide what they're doing shows that they know it's wrong. Maybe it's lack of empathy that enables them to do the actual act. But fundamentally, they had a very strong drive to do something they knew was wrong but, they chose to do it anyway.

How do you know that people who then villainize them don't have brains that have been irreparably altered themselves? Especially if they are victims, they're brains may have been changed too. But, if we have a 'natural' tendancy to feel appalled and hate these people, we should use logic to get over that. Isn't that a double standard? Expecting one group of people to overcone their 'natural' tendencies towards anger, hatred, revenge even. While saying this other group had no choice?
 
KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Visionary
Apr 15, 2024
2,088
Maybe not for everyone. Like you say- people are waking up to the idea that we need to understand these people, rather than see them as 'other' and, monstrous.

It's maybe down to the individual. Even victims of heinous crimes. Think Chris Watts. Murdered his pregnant wife and two young children. Dumped his children's bodies in huge oil silos. Her parents didn't actually want the death penalty for him. Although, perhaps they thought justice would be better served if he had the rest of his life to remember what he'd done.

I guess it's partly, whatever helps the victims of these people too. Personally though, I can understand why they would see the perpetrator's actions as monstrous at least, if not the perpetrator themselves.

I don't know really. Is: 'Keep away from that person' enough of a deterrent? Plus, while it's horrible to admit it, our minds will jump so readily to hate. To protecting our own from outside threats. Why is hatred preventable for our brains but, commiting say violent crime is unpreventable for theirs? Because, we're conscious and able to change? How do you know?

The same influences that have been pressing on them to commit crime could well have been pressing on us. I've heard reasonably prejudiced things growing up- homophobic, racist, sexist sometimes. Does that mean I'm all those things? I'll admit that some thoughts pop in there sometimes- but I challenge them.

Again, I don't believe that people don't have at least hesitation over doing something they know is wrong. The whole fact they will try to hide what they're doing shows that they know it's wrong. Maybe it's lack of empathy that enables them to do the actual act. But fundamentally, they had a very strong drive to do something they knew was wrong but, they chose to do it anyway.

How do you know that people who then villainize them don't have brains that have been irreparably altered themselves? Especially if they are victims, they're brains may have been changed too. But, if we have a 'natural' tendancy to feel appalled and hate these people, we should use logic to get over that. Isn't that a double standard? Expecting one group of people to overcone their 'natural' tendencies towards anger, hatred, revenge even. While saying this other group had no choice?
We should all strive to be our best selves. Tolerance, forgiveness, offering help and non-retaliation simply works best. So those of us who have those "gifts" should strive to set an example in children whose brains can still be conditioned into one way or the other.
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
12,772
We should all strive to be our best selves. Tolerance, forgiveness, offering help and non-retaliation simply works best. So those of us who have those "gifts" should strive to set an example in children whose brains can still be conditioned into one way or the other.

Definitely we should. We all should. Same as- people who are able to stop themselves committing heinous acts should do that. Drawing on their sense of morals or knowledge of right and wrong- if they were given them. They do know when something's illegal I imagine. It can't take that much thought to figure out why it's illegal. Often because it involves hurting others. Or, it puts us in a situation where we are possibly out of control and, likely to hurt others.

How do you know those who are labelling people as 'monsters' have been taught tolerance, forgiveness, non retaliation? Maybe their parents were extremely prejudiced. We don't exactly live in the most understanding, forgiving world either. We are openly encouraged to hate groups of people. It's not right, certainly but, maybe we can't see the 'right' thing to do either.

I'd argue that we are extremely susceptible as a species to form tight groups and protect them. Sadly, the way we do that very effectively is to see those not in the group as 'other'. Some of the times we have pulled together most strongly as nations is when there has been an outside threat- someone else to hate- in war etc. Again, not good but, something we are highly susceptible to.

I feel like it's more your hope that people should choose to be forgiving because it's the 'right' thing, and maybe the more constructive thing to do. But, do you really think that comes naturally to people either? Isn't this what this is about? Being unable to fight against our genetic and cultural make up?

That a parent should forgive the person who raped and murdered their child? It's obvious they would feel angry about that. Yet, you seem to think they should be able to overcome that hatred. When the perpetrator genuinely had absolutely no control? (Supposedly.) Who's the more motivated realistically? Someone horny or a parent wanting to protect their child? Parents will often do absolutely anything to protect their children. Shaming someone as a 'monster' would be the least of their concerns in some cases.

Children shouldn't be exposed to the kinds of abuse/ neglect that very likely turn them into narcissists, sex offenders, psychopaths. We should all be taught tolerance and understanding. We aren't though- unfortunately. We end up with what we're given. That's also why I think the focus has to be on the individual to take responsibility for their actions. We don't all receive a standardized and good upbringing. Some of us will be working against all sorts of demons.

If everything really is out of our hands/ control. If we are simply the unavoidable outcome of our genes and events that happened to us, should we even bother telling people they are responsible for their actions? If they have an urge to do something bad- it doesn't really matter if they do it or not. It's all fate's fault- not theirs. Imagine if no one demonstrated self restraint. We'd be in even greater chaos.

Surely, that's a part of what religions are all about too. Trying to reign in our most wild behaviour.

The fact that not all abused people abuse others. Not all narcissists, sex offenders, psychopaths, addicts follow their instincts. Not all people raised in very prejudiced households become that way themselves proves that we are in fact capable of making better choices. The vast majority of us I tend to think- anyway. But sure- some people will have a lot more to work against- sadly.

I think it's almost inevitable that some people will be viewed as villainous though. We're all fallable to an extent I imagine. It's tricky not to hate someone if they have destroyed your life!

In terms of institutions and, what we do as a society. I truly don't know. I'm not so sure the softly, softly approach works either though:

 
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