I simply don't understand the logic behind incels or femcels

[noname223]

Maybe it is similar why many people cannot understand suicidal people. It just does not seem logical for them.

But if you struggle to find a partner why would you choose an ideology which makes it way harder to find a partner? Hating a whole gender category and all people who fall into this category. It seems for me like self-destruction one o one. You make your chances voluntarily way harder to find a significant other. Maybe being an incel or femcel is not a free choice. This would be a valid argument.

But what or who do you hate more the ideology you believe in or the people who you should hate according to your ideology. I am not sure whether incels and femcels often struggle with self-hatred.

I don't think my thoughts are very sophisticated. I simply do not understand these people. There is also a race what is worse being a man or woman which seems weird to me.

Maybe many incels or femcels don't want partners? Is this the truth?

But I think if sex is the goal loathing women won't be helpful either. Except if you buy a woman who has to work under undignifying circumstances. Hating women would help in this instance.

But also femcels feel so weird to me. These would probably be the people who despise incels the most and they simply copied their ideology under a different branding. I read a thread here about awful men. I think I met many men in college who literally hated men themselves because of their toxic masculinity. Maybe you should be nuanced instead of generalizing all of us.

 

[jar-baby]

I don't think ideology in general feels like much of a choice to its adherents. Ideologues by definition are convinced that their normative views and perception of reality are the objectively correct ones, and incels are no different (hence the choice of the terms redpill/bluepill). Their wiki even links to numerous scientific studies that supposedly evidence the objective truth of their worldview*—one of the studies, for instance, concluded that most women are attracted to dark triad personalities. I'm sure a lack of romantic success and other personal factors are often what lead incels to adopt this worldview (like how having a difficult life could cause you to be a philosophical pessimist) but from their point of view, they're the ones seeing things the way they really are, so changing their minds would be thought of as self-delusion.

*said worldview being that "systemic and genetic factors" are solely responsible for men's romantic/sexual success

 

[derpyderpins]

One thing that always confuses me is whether being an "incel" automatically ties you to those hateful groups and boards. I thought at first incels were just lonely guys who didn't have any success with women. For someone older like me I think of being on /r/foreveralone in the early reddit days.

I think they slip to the bad ideology when they've reached immense frustration and hopelessness.

I do think modern dating has such unique challenges and when you are someone constantly failing the more impossible it seems. You do hear a lot about confidence for good reason. I don't know about the specific studies they're linking to, but if you're in a limited social circle and are seen as being passive, you can be basically doomed until you're able to branch out. It's a pattern of failure => less confidence => more failure.

Speaking from specifically the male perspective, it can be easy to end up on someone's hook and get used. Women who are good at playing the field definitely understand the balance of power in the modern dating scene. All these terms throughout the years, "foreveralone", "friendzone", "incel": the issue is that they've all had at least a bit of evidence and reason backing them up, but then some people - in their frustration - take it to extremes. Rather than offering compassion, society at large isolates them.

So, for example, if you get led on for weeks or months and suddenly it falls apart, you end up in this hopeless state and you look for support. (Has happened to me.) If you only half embrace the 'incel' ideology, people will associate you with the bad parts and push you away. Then these dark corners of the Internet feel like the only place that will accept you. I'm really grateful I met my fiance when I did, shortly after that bad experience, or I may have fallen into that hole.

So I understand your point about the hatred of the thing you want not being helpful, but in their desperation they're far past the point of being logical. They're at a point where they've basically given up.

 

[lack]

The woman who founded the 'incel' movement

When Alana started a website for lonely people struggling to find love, she had no idea where it would lead.

www.bbc.com

i understand the story to be sort of like, ... the first "incel" was a femcel, who literally was just expressing her status as being someone who is living a celibate lifestyle but that they dont wish to.. and trying to find a community of people experiencing the same thing she was, that she felt maybe wasnt a normal thing around her to feel. (does that sound familiar????? )

the term stands for involuntary.. celibate. involuntary..
.. so, like. its not a choice by definition. people who cling to the "harmful" ideologies are doing something else entirely. i am celibate, but i dont want to be. i cant find a partner. that by definition makes me an involuntary celibate person. it doesn't mean that i identify with all that shit. it's frustrating at times how often people "group" other people into their categories and lump them all as one. i totally get it, but like.. ..... so , the thing you dont like about .. about "incels", is that they are "judgmental", but the assumption that every single person who identifies as involuntarily celibate is a part of this weird hate group filled with judgmental people, is in its nature somewhat judgmental? hah.. i dont know if im making sense. but it just makes me so exhausted. i dont identify with those people in this way specifically because of people that assume if i were to use that label, it makes me a hateful person. i dont hate anyone. i hate that people are so extremely quick to be sort of judgmental - whether thats an "incel" or just sone other random person who has decided to be equally as judgmental as the people they judge for being so "hateful".. and im not suggesting for sure that's what you were doing, but more that.. the idea that an incel is this specific thing, and that its like so clearly defined by these rules that make no sense ... idfk. lol. it just makes me sad this was something SO MANY OF US could all fucking relate to but its not helped by people who just assume and decide that it definitely means something hateful instead of just, this is my shitty situation i cant control and maybe we could find that in common and try to change our situations by changing other aspects of our life or at least commiserate in a way that doesnt lead to toxic and judgmental ideas about entire groups of other people. its all so ironic to me.

(edit to add: its especially ironic that your last line is "Maybe you should be nuanced instead of generalizing all of us." maybe you could fucking try that, too.)

 

[Spreadingmywings]

Idk but I find each side hilarious

Spoiler

 

[DeadEndRoad]

I'm a male. Technically I'd be considered an incel because I've never dated anyone. I don't hate women. I'm not sure if that's the deciding factor in what makes an incel. Women just aren't interested in me. They never really have been. I can see why they wouldn't but It'd be nice to experience at least once. Some people just don't get to I feel like. Survival of the fittest and all that.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I understand some of it though I don't always agree with any of the beliefs or terms even though I am one. No matter how much I try to deny me being an incel reality just keeps proving I am one so why bother denying it?

 

[noname223]

I'm a male. Technically I'd be considered an incel because I've never dated anyone. I don't hate women. I'm not sure if that's the deciding factor in what makes an incel. Women just aren't interested in me. They never really have been. I can see why they wouldn't but It'd be nice to experience at least once. Some people just don't get to I feel like. Survival of the fittest and all that.

Aren't incels hating women and they usually blame women for their lack of sex. I don't think incels are necessarily judgemental. The hate against women disturbs me the most. The blaming of the other sex and the hate towards them defines for me incels and femcels. The sole fact you never dated does not mean you are an incel. At least that is my understanding.

 

[astr4]

definitely think there should be a distinction made between incels and capital I Incels, the kind that are spiteful and dismissive of your experiences simply because you're a woman.

as for why becoming an Incel makes sense, well, anger is a handy coping mechanism, no? easier to think women as a whole are the problem than to reflect on your own flaws.

 

[ForeverAlone_autist]

i know sex won't make me happy or suddenly change my life so to me it just doesn't matter anyways
T

definitely think there should be a distinction made between incels and capital I Incels, the kind that are spiteful and dismissive of your experiences simply because you're a woman.

as for why becoming an Incel makes sense, well, anger is a handy coping mechanism, no? easier to think women as a whole are the problem than to reflect on your own flaws.

true point. For me though it was never like that. I don't blame them for not liking me cause i know i do this to myself most of the time and that most of it is my responsibilitys

 

[lamargue]

Aren't incels hating women and they usually blame women for their lack of sex. I don't think incels are necessarily judgemental. The hate against women disturbs me the most. The blaming of the other sex and the hate towards them defines for me incels and femcels. The sole fact you never dated does not mean you are an incel. At least that is my understanding.

hard to speculate when there are (as far as i know) no incels on this forum that hold those kinds of beliefs. but to play devil's advocate, they don't blame all women. i mean sure, they dislike very attractive women for pursuing what they believe to be shallow qualities, a consequence of biology and hence characteristic of women. if we consider looks as existing on a scale of 1-10, then they likely blame women who they 'looksmatch' that still want to pursue partners who are higher on the scale. this, i think, they believe to be a consequence of hypergamy; women want to pursue men who are most genetically fit to procreate with. the residues of a biological instinct, if you will.

so imo they only blame certain women, not all women. still misogynistic, obviously. i doubt femcels would be the same in this case either. incels probably don't think that femcels exist to begin with.

 

[noname223]

hard to speculate when there are (as far as i know) no incels on this forum that hold those kinds of beliefs. but to play devil's advocate, they don't blame all women. i mean sure, they dislike very attractive women for pursuing what they believe to be shallow qualities, a consequence of biology and hence characteristic of women. if we consider looks as existing on a scale of 1-10, then they likely blame women who they 'looksmatch' that still want to pursue partners who are higher on the scale. this, i think, they believe to be a consequence of hypergamy; women want to pursue men who are most genetically fit to procreate with. the residues of a biological instinct, if you will.

so imo they only blame certain women, not all women. still misogynistic, obviously. i doubt femcels would be the same in this case either. incels probably don't think that femcels exist to begin with.

I will never fully understand these people. Very attractive men also pursue shallow qualities, a consequence of biology and hence charcteristic of men. (if I follow their reasoning hypothetically) Such a nonsense. But this is not the only thing which is not is illogical. Furthermore, not looking at individual cases is quite tricky and tends to generalize. Not all men or women are like that. Human behavior is not only determined by our biological instincts. Whatever.

 

[lamargue]

I will never fully understand these people. Very attractive men also pursue shallow qualities, a consequence of biology and hence charcteristic of men. (if I follow their reasoning hypothetically) Such a nonsense. But this is not the only thing which is not is illogical. Furthermore, not looking at individual cases is quite tricky and tends to generalize. Not all men or women are like that. Human behavior is not only determined by our biological instincts. Whatever.

i think that's their point. attractive men pursue shallow qualities, but not to the extent of women; men who don't meet their criteria of attractiveness (such as incels) will only be able to settle with what they deem to be the bottom of the barrel. incels ideally would like to pair themselves with women who they looksmatch, but because of hypergamy they will always bat for men of a higher weight class, so they are left in the lurch. mind you, they use results from dating apps and anecdotal stories to back their claims.

i agree, you can't make any generalisations such as these. the disagreement consists in a disagreement on human nature, i think.

 

[AmericanMary]

A few weeks ago someone convinced me that the femcel community was a group of traumatized women who would rather write off all men than ever be subjected to harm from a man again.

I did some digging. This is not true.

I'm terrified of both the incel and femcel communities :)

 

[pollux]

"But it is just in that cold, abominable half despair, half belief, in that conscious burying oneself alive for grief in the underworld for forty years, in that acutely recognized and yet partly doubtful hopelessness of one's position, in that hell of unsatisfied desires turned inward, in that fever of oscillations, of resolutions determined for ever and repented of again a minute later—that the savor of that strange enjoyment of which I have spoken lies."

 

[GhostShell]

With these discussions I am always reminded of Elliot Rodgers, one of the most famous incels. He was conventionally pretty like at least an 8/10 guy who could just create a Tinder profile and smash daily to end his incel problem. But there was one issue! A problem, captain! He was even more mysogynistic than Andrew Tate, a literal mass shooter that wanted to hurt women specifically for not dating him (wonder why lol).

Being pretty is an issue that is talked a lot as a reason for not getting laid. But that is very, very rarely a cause. Deep introspection will reveal issues with seeing women as not people, that is where incels become incels. It is inside, not outside.

 

[noname223]

i think that's their point. attractive men pursue shallow qualities, but not to the extent of women; men who don't meet their criteria of attractiveness (such as incels) will only be able to settle with what they deem to be the bottom of the barrel. incels ideally would like to pair themselves with women who they looksmatch, but because of hypergamy they will always bat for men of a higher weight class, so they are left in the lurch. mind you, they use results from dating apps and anecdotal stories to back their claims.

i agree, you can't make any generalisations such as these. the disagreement consists in a disagreement on human nature, i think.

Tbh from my experience it rather seems like men pursue shallow qualities more often than women. I think more men are superficial. But the difference isn't that big.
But it is more complicated. For dating apps this statement might contain some truth that women often judge on some superficial qualities. Because as a woman you get way more matches there. It is not a trait inherent of the biology of women. It is rather a result on the imbalance of men/women on those apps.
But my observation applies to real life. Moreover, I think many young men seem to be obsessed about sex and they don't really worship higher qualities of women. Especially on dating apps. It is ironic that incels criticize women for pursuing shallow qualities when they reduce women to sex dolls. And demand sex as a right with them.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I don't fully understand incels either. They're so strange. I think their insecurity and overall bad circumstances make them hate on women to cope with their own situation. Honestly, I'm just glad that I don't have a sex drive or else I'd probably be an incel just like them

 

[lamargue]

Tbh from my experience it rather seems like men pursue shallow qualities more often than women. I think more men are superficial. But the difference isn't that big.
But it is more complicated. For dating apps this statement might contain some truth that women often judge on some superficial qualities. Because as a woman you get way more matches there. It is not a trait inherent of the biology of women. It is rather a result on the imbalance of men/women on those apps.
But my observation applies to real life. Moreover, I think many young men seem to be obsessed about sex and they don't really worship higher qualities of women. Especially on dating apps. It is ironic that incels criticize women for pursuing shallow qualities when they reduce women to sex dolls. And demand sex as a right with them.

probably, but that's what happens when your worldview is confined to anecdotal information from internet forums. but then again i'm no better. i don't think our understanding will be resolved since it just amounts to competing claims on human nature.

but tbf i don't think it is an inherently self-defeating ideology. clearly, even without the misogynistic component, it still loosely applies to some men. i think that many facets of our culture are tied into how we are wired. the transcendent or higher qualities of human beings are simply not present for some. i really wouldn't even call inceldom a movement, since it lacks any sound philosophical basis to fall back upon. it's like an internet diaspora; a shared belief in the blackpill is probably what ties them together.

 

[pollux]

With these discussions I am always reminded of Elliot Rodgers, one of the most famous incels. He was conventionally pretty like at least an 8/10 guy who could just create a Tinder profile and smash daily to end his incel problem. But there was one issue! A problem, captain! He was even more mysogynistic than Andrew Tate, a literal mass shooter that wanted to hurt women specifically for not dating him (wonder why lol).

Being pretty is an issue that is talked a lot as a reason for not getting laid. But that is very, very rarely a cause. Deep introspection will reveal issues with seeing women as not people, that is where incels become incels. It is inside, not outside.

He wasn't good looking. Pretty average honestly. I do agree that he wasn't ugly. He could've found a girlfriend or gotten laid. He'd be no "player" but wouldn't be a virgin either.

But people like ER have a set of personality traits that lends itself to incel-type thinking. Narcissistic (in the self-absorbed sense, not in the "I'm great" sense), always comparing himself to others, always wanting to be seen in a certain way etc. People like that usually don't respond well to reality not bending to their whims. Dating and getting laid isn't a solitary affair; unless you're violating a girl, you're going to have to get her consent, it's not something you really have control over. Who knows how she will choose? So we fall back onto little theories: "you just gotta have game bro", "women just want money", "women just want chad" and so on.

Because then at least we know.

Seeing incels as only misogynistic is a mistake; the issue runs far deeper. It's an inability to live in a world where you are judged by things you have no control over; but things you yourself decided to be judged by.

But then again, did you have any other option? How else will you know how much you are worth? For men without any other talents or skills, they have to fall back onto money, possessions, status, women. "If she has sex with me, that must mean I'm worth something. She choose me after all." Well, it's not literal like that, but you get the point.