Help I need help

[AnxiousLlama]

I like you, I hope that you have a good day.

 

[willitpass]

Hello - I hope you are feeling better. Yes, low sugar makes things worse but imho try eating things with sugar instead of sugar-free.

You said you tried lots of therapies and medication, you stopped medication last year and therapy in January as they were not helping and lately you have been feeling a lot worse.

Objectively it looks like stopping made things much worse.

I understand you say you have been traumatised by the mental health system, but statisticallly people feel better after they have been through it.

I also understand restarting seems very difficult and if you start speaking you won't stop and you've said it a million times to a million doctors and therapists etc.

But medicine evolves and so does your body. You said you are in your early 20s - so you know you are not the same like when you were 14 and many substances that are used in 2024 were not available in 2014.

I don't know you at all but really try to restart because it looks like things got worse now that you stopped.

Yk there are various ways to do ECT (unilateral, bilateral, etc.) but besides that, have you tried open-ended psychoanalysis? Not psychotherapy in general but psychoanalysis.

It's difficult to find, you have to find someone whose job description is not "therapy" but "analysis", but they exist. They go beyond the usual "strategies" to "cope" or to "change" something (and people can see them without being "sick", they can be happy when they see them).

Calling the police - like you say - on someone who feels like CTB'ing should be an extreme last resort option. Policemen are not doctors or therapists and can't really diagnose or treat disease. I mean if someone has a bone coming out of the leg you don't need to be a professor of surgery to know there's a broken bone.

I see nice people here trying to help you. In general don't stop medication or therapy on your own, because the brain organically changes because of both and it can't just stop.

Somebody wrote "I don't really know how to change the brain from years of thinking this way" - exactly, the job of the psychanalyst is to help you see why you are thinking in this way and make you find a way of changing the way you are thinking - if you want to, because many people, deep down in the subconscious, have made their mode of thinking their identity.

This is actually dangerous for the psychanalyst too, because the patient has an influence on the analyst and it's not a one-way street.

Anyway, hope you day went well :-)

>pop-psychologist "oh no the dishes will fall"
>real one "and then what? why are those dishes important? can't you get new ones?"

I have been through so many programs that my mind has been looked up and down and left and right. There is not a corner of my mind that has not be spilled out to someone and explained to me, and me explain to them, and then explain to me the way I explained to them. Ive done DBT, CBT, IOP, all of the different types. I've had more holistic therapists and more standard ones. My mind has been analyzed to the nines. I truly have nothing left to tell anyone not anything left for them to tell me.

As far as ECT, mine was bilateral, and while I have looked at the records I'm not honestly familiar enough to know how high of a level I was receiving comparatively. All I know is while it didn't cause any harm, it didn't help either.

I've considered getting a pharmakogenomics test to see which medications have the best chance of working on me and giving things another shot, but that's expensive. I've considered ketamine therapy, but that's also beyond expensive. I've thought about clinical trials but there are none in my area that apply to my issues. Every time I think I may have found a new avenue I realize that it won't work for me.

To be quite honest, even if I wasn't traumatized by therapy, even if I didn't know that going back would mean a definite hospital stay, I have no energy left for talk therapy. Opening it all up and having it all dissected is exhausting. The fatigue and burnout I had reached in therapy so many times… I don't have it in me to do that again. What I want more than anything is a new treatment. Something I haven't tried before. I genuinely have lost faith in the things I've tried so many times before. But it feels so hopeless when all of things I've found as possible new avenues are inaccessible. It's like the universe is telling me that it's not for me, I'm not allowed.

 

[penguinl0v3s]

Do you have any insight on what started your depressive spiral, or continued it?

 

[mellie5]

Hello -

so you actually know about ECT but haven't tried ketamine yet. ECT has really no level, it has to be enough for the synchronisations to be seen on the ECG. Actually the instruction manual for the ECT machine explains a lot about how the pulse should be and the various options. Unfortunately most doctors don't know that and will only press the button and raise the most basic setting.

I really don't know how the public health system in your place works and what is paid and what isn't. Don't bother with that test, because it won't tell you anything for sure.

Ketamine spray in the nose is expensive but ketamine intravenous is not. In both cases you would have to stay in the hospital for a while (hours) after the application. Sorry, "esketamine" in the nose, because with the "es" We Can Charge Much More (tm).

Lithium also works for depression - but is not to be taken just like that, first you need blood tests and someone should explain to you the side-effects. It's not only for crazy psychotic people, it works very well in depression but it's very cheap and so is not talked about.

The chat therapies - well you see analysis is different, very different. It lasts for years by default. Even learning about it is dangerous, because you can find out things about yourself that you didn't want to know. And so every analyst needs a supervisor with whom to talk - every week. However it really works (but takes years) and fixes things like personality disorders.

I don't know what medicine you tried, but even those you took as a teen worked differently then because biology.

Re: things you have not tried, ketamine is a big thing you haven't tried (whether ketamine or esketamine), lithium perhaps, there is also agomelatine and bupropion.

Also I mean somebody qualified should tell you IRL what kind of depression you have, because there are different kinds with different treatments.

Additionally so you know, there is a US depression (at present DSM-V) and an everybody else in the world depression (ICD-10 being replaced by ICD-11).

So whatever label or diagnosis you have had is not something set in stone that never changes, take it with a grain of salt. What is important is how you feel and how to make you feel better.

Also on the list of things you may not have tried there is transcranial magnetic stimulation, which apparently works.

There is also augmentation of the antidepressant with an antipsychotic or even just with thyroid hormone. Unfortunately when people hear "antipsychotic" they think "I am not crazy" but that is the name of that type of medication (slowly replaced by "neuroleptic" but imho it doesn't help).

FYI but really just as information because you can't just try it there are deep brain stimulation, vagal nerve stimulation and ablative psychosurgery. All need a (brain) surgeon and a lot of permissions, especially the last one:

Surgical/invasive approaches for treating unipolar major depression include:

●Surgical implantation of devices

•Vagus nerve stimulation – Clinically available

•Deep brain stimulation – Investigational

•Direct cortical stimulation – Investigational

●Ablative neurosurgery – Clinically available

Among invasive treatments for unipolar major depression, ablative neurosurgery is the "last resort" and its use is heavily restricted.

 

[willitpass]

Hello -

so you actually know about ECT but haven't tried ketamine yet. ECT has really no level, it has to be enough for the synchronisations to be seen on the ECG. Actually the instruction manual for the ECT machine explains a lot about how the pulse should be and the various options. Unfortunately most doctors don't know that and will only press the button and raise the most basic setting.

I really don't know how the public health system in your place works and what is paid and what isn't. Don't bother with that test, because it won't tell you anything for sure.

Ketamine spray in the nose is expensive but ketamine intravenous is not. In both cases you would have to stay in the hospital for a while (hours) after the application. Sorry, "esketamine" in the nose, because with the "es" We Can Charge Much More (tm).

Lithium also works for depression - but is not to be taken just like that, first you need blood tests and someone should explain to you the side-effects. It's not only for crazy psychotic people, it works very well in depression but it's very cheap and so is not talked about.

The chat therapies - well you see analysis is different, very different. It lasts for years by default. Even learning about it is dangerous, because you can find out things about yourself that you didn't want to know. And so every analyst needs a supervisor with whom to talk - every week. However it really works (but takes years) and fixes things like personality disorders.

I don't know what medicine you tried, but even those you took as a teen worked differently then because biology.

Re: things you have not tried, ketamine is a big thing you haven't tried (whether ketamine or esketamine), lithium perhaps, there is also agomelatine and bupropion.

Also I mean somebody qualified should tell you IRL what kind of depression you have, because there are different kinds with different treatments.

Additionally so you know, there is a US depression (at present DSM-V) and an everybody else in the world depression (ICD-10 being replaced by ICD-11).

So whatever label or diagnosis you have had is not something set in stone that never changes, take it with a grain of salt. What is important is how you feel and how to make you feel better.

Also on the list of things you may not have tried there is transcranial magnetic stimulation, which apparently works.

There is also augmentation of the antidepressant with an antipsychotic or even just with thyroid hormone. Unfortunately when people hear "antipsychotic" they think "I am not crazy" but that is the name of that type of medication (slowly replaced by "neuroleptic" but imho it doesn't help).

FYI but really just as information because you can't just try it there are deep brain stimulation, vagal nerve stimulation and ablative psychosurgery. All need a (brain) surgeon and a lot of permissions, especially the last one:

Surgical/invasive approaches for treating unipolar major depression include:

●Surgical implantation of devices

•Vagus nerve stimulation – Clinically available

•Deep brain stimulation – Investigational

•Direct cortical stimulation – Investigational

●Ablative neurosurgery – Clinically available

Among invasive treatments for unipolar major depression, ablative neurosurgery is the "last resort" and its use is heavily restricted.

As far as medication: lithium I was on for awhile, it didn't do anything so they discontinued it due to its risks. I cannot take anything with bupropion as it causes seizures in me, ironic considering that was one of the few drugs that helped me. I have been trialed on so many drugs that I've lost count and not a single one of them works. I'm genuinely convinced my body doesn't process medications properly as my reaction to nearly all drugs, not just antidepressants. I always seem to have no reaction or a very minimal reaction to things. For example, it takes enough sedatives for two grown men to sedate me for medical purposes and I have no predisposing factors for that. It makes me very hesitant to try more medications, even if my biology has changed due to age, because even as I age I'm seeing my body inappropriately respond to all sorts of medications.

My diagnosis was (it was taken off my current list because I was actually labeled as in remission as of a couple of years ago)Severe Major Depressive Disorders. During my teen years they were questioning if I had a personality disorder, specifically BPD, however most of those traits I was exhibiting actually went away as I got older and matured. Even though they never diagnosed me with it, they still tried talk therapy methods and medications for BPD to see if they would help. They put me on lamictal for that reason. I'm glad my treatment team didn't focus on a diagnosis and rather on what treatment would benefit my symptoms, it's one of the few things they did right.

I've looked into both Sprivato and IV ketamine near me, both are out of my budget and not covered by insurance. I haven't yet found a place that does TMS near me nor do I know if it's covered by insurance, I suppose that's the one option I could consider putting more energy towards. The psychosurgery route sounds quite intimidating to be quite honest, and my physical health is so poor I'm not sure I'd be a candidate. If TMS falls through maybe I'll look into it.

As far as psychoanalysis, I truly don't have it in me to wait years for something to maybe work. If I were in a better off state I would be more willing, but even making it day to day right now is too much. I can't being myself to fight for years to let someone break apart my mind anymore. It's too tiring. And to unlock some parts of me I hadn't yet realized would probably push me over the age in the state I'm in.

I know it's sounding like I'm throwing in the towel and rejecting everything. I'm not trying to. I've just thought all of these options over for a very long time and weighed the pros and cons. I know talk therapy and psychoanalysis are considered the most effective for most, but after a decade of talking I have no more left to say. Maybe I'd be willing to go back if another form of treatment were able to stabilize me more, but in my current state I can't. I don't trust them and I don't have the energy for my brain to be poked and prodded.

Do you have any insight on what started your depressive spiral, or continued it?

Some of it is genetic, it runs in my family. Some of it is severe childhood trauma. I think I was born with already flawed genes and the trauma I experienced was the nail in the coffin. A perfect storm of things. Nowadays the spiral continues because it's all my brain knows. My neural pathways got built horribly wrong as a child and now I don't know how to fix them.

 

[anhedonya]

How did seeing your friend go?

 

[willitpass]

How did seeing your friend go?

Alright. I was able to eat a tiny bit but I think it was pretty obvious that I wasnt doing well with it. I ate and drank just enough to be able to safely drive. I got a couple of things. I also got a vape, I've been thinking about it for a few months now. At this point what have I got to lose with it? Some people say it's stress relief, and even if it isn't my body is already in piss poor shape, what's a little more. Not the best idea but of all things I could be doing to myself at this point. Overall it got me out of my apartment and driving was incentive to at least eat a bit.

 

[anhedonya]

I'm proud of you for making the effort through it all! I really don't blame you. I firmly believing in meeting people halfway and if the choices are between brutal self harm - vaping / cigarettes - nothing at all, then I'd say getting a vape rather than harming yourself in the usual ways is still a win. I hope you get to see your friend again, you've made so much progress in such a small time

 

[mellie5]

so, how are you? how did you spend your time?

I find "major depressive disorders" too generic though. So a personality disorder was ruled out, interesting.

You wrote "my neural pathways got built horribly wrong as a child and now I don't know how to fix them".

I think nobody expects you to know how to fix them, because even if you studied the required 14 years to do so, you would be able to fix other people's, not your own.

Again, not knowing anything about you, just very generically and objectively I can only point out that you got worse since you stopped therapy and medication.

The neural pathways can be untangled though, they are not fixed forever.

Also objectively you seem to be very clever and articulate, which goes in your favour - but also makes you very good at detecting and deflecting usual techniques.

I am sure you have been asked many times to say three good things about yourself. Try this instead: say three bad but untrue things about yourself and explain why they are untrue.

Perhaps don't write them here, it's too unsafe, just think about them or maybe say tell them to yourself and explain to yourself why they are not true.

Here are three things I think you don't do - set people on fire on the street, eat live animals, be devoid of feelings.

re: vape - a lot depends on the substance being vaped, but idk, otoh if it helps you feel better... otoh don't get addicted to anything :-) I mean like alcohol, many can have a drink once in a while and not get addicted, some get very addicted.

 

[willitpass]

so, how are you? how did you spend your time?

I find "major depressive disorders" too generic though. So a personality disorder was ruled out, interesting.

You wrote "my neural pathways got built horribly wrong as a child and now I don't know how to fix them".

I think nobody expects you to know how to fix them, because even if you studied the required 14 years to do so, you would be able to fix other people's, not your own.

Again, not knowing anything about you, just very generically and objectively I can only point out that you got worse since you stopped therapy and medication.

The neural pathways can be untangled though, they are not fixed forever.

Also objectively you seem to be very clever and articulate, which goes in your favour - but also makes you very good at detecting and deflecting usual techniques.

I am sure you have been asked many times to say three good things about yourself. Try this instead: say three bad but untrue things about yourself and explain why they are untrue.

Perhaps don't write them here, it's too unsafe, just think about them or maybe say tell them to yourself and explain to yourself why they are not true.

Here are three things I think you don't do - set people on fire on the street, eat live animals, be devoid of feelings.

I'm out of the complete nightmare of the other night, however not by much. Just enough for existing to be kind of manageable moment to moment. I saw a friend yesterday and since then haven't done much but lay around and obsess over food.

A personality disorder wasn't ever explicitly ruled out, however it was never explicitly ruled in either. At least not to my knowledge. It would be briefly brought up once every several months and they would occasionally mention that a certain treatment option was known to be helpful with BPD. My last therapist said that while she was not a psychiatrist so she couldn't diagnose, nor did she believe in focusing on diagnosis, she wasn't sure that I would qualify. While I agree I have objectively gotten worse, the comparison of where I was prior to stopping meds and therapy still was not great. I am worse now, but I was still highly actively suicidal. I suppose one could argue going back for even the slightest of improvement, but to be quite honest I've reached the point of only being interested in therapies that will make me happy and excited to live, not ones that only make me less urgently eager to die. I understand I will never be completely void of depression and suicidal, but a I don't want to put time and effort into something that will not even be able to turn my active suicidal ideation into passive. It's not enough of a cost-benefit for me.

I have been told since I was a young child that I am very articulate and have wonderful self awareness as far as my mental illness goes. I agree with that. I also have always known that that same atribute is my own worst enemy. I am so self aware that I have always struggled to use coping skills because I know exactly what they are trying to do and thus removes the benefit of placebo. I think so clinically about coping skills that I spend too much time thinking about what it is trying to get me to think to the point that I don't let it do its job. I'm also stubborn as a bull. If I tell myself it's not going to work I'll be damned if it works. My best traits are also the exact traits that have kept me from getting better my entire life and I believe may well keep me sick until I'm gone.

I appreciate your insight and I will try that exercise. Thank you.

 

[mellie5]

yw. You seem to be a really good candidate for psychanalysis though. Because you see, it's not really for everyone, the patients too must have certain intellectual abilities and be able to understand some of what is proposed. It doesn't take years to make you not suicidal, but it takes years (3-5) to make sure you will never be suicidal again ("changing the pathways").

I don't get a feeling of "personality disorder" from the way you write, but that ofc can only be assessed by someone who is actually talking to you (just tests are not enough).

idk what kind of psychotherapist told you that she couldn't diagnose bcs she was not a psychiatrist, but avoid those. Real psychotherapists with a degree in psychology can certainly diagnose - they just can't prescribe.

Ofc there are different treatments for different personality disorders.

I noticed you mentioned "obsessing over food" - do you have an eating disorder?

 

[willitpass]

yw. You seem to be a really good candidate for psychanalysis though. Because you see, it's not really for everyone, the patients too must have certain intellectual abilities and be able to understand some of what is proposed. It doesn't take years to make you not suicidal, but it takes years (3-5) to make sure you will never be suicidal again ("changing the pathways").

I don't get a feeling of "personality disorder" from the way you write, but that ofc can only be assessed by someone who is actually talking to you (just tests are not enough).

idk what kind of psychotherapist told you that she couldn't diagnose bcs she was not a psychiatrist, but avoid those. Real psychotherapists with a degree in psychology can certainly diagnose - they just can't prescribe.

Ofc there are different treatments for different personality disorders.

I noticed you mentioned "obsessing over food" - do you have an eating disorder?

My list of problems include anxiety, severe MDD with suicidal ideation, they tossed around the idea of BPD, and anorexia. I'm not sure if there's anything else they've somehow missed, but I'm in agreement with the concept of focusing on symptoms and not diagnosis. I've got a lot of ADHD traits but I wasn't able to get tested as a child and am not interested in getting diagnosed as an adult because it won't change anything. Same reason I don't worry too much about BPD, especially since as I've said, I matured and lost the big symptoms that were convincing them of it.

Maybe I could benefit from psychoanalysis, but back to my stubbornness and almost too good of self awareness, I believe it will not work and if it does I'm too tired to try.

 

[mellie5]

well, MDD is always "severe" imho.

But I also see you have a long history and you had problems with eating. I understand you are afraid of gaining weight, but being permanently hungry and eating everything without sugar has a bad effect on mental health (lack of food -> signal through the lymbic system that "something is missing" -> general feeling that "something is missing" -> "I feel very unwell" -> brain thinks "glad you noticed there's something wrong, let's reinforce that" -> I feel much worse -> my life is horrible, I feel bad the whole time, I don't want to eat, etc.)

This is a very, very simplified pathway.

Anyway, objectively, what happens if you gain 1 lb? if you drink that same weight in water it will do the same.

I saw on some previous thread you wrote that Wellbutrin helped but why did you also say you can't take it?

Nvm this is in the past.

But I saw you went through a lot, especially a lot through US psychiatry, which is very different from European in general, and in Europe it varies from country to country. Anxiety is often a symptom of depression, not a comorbidity (depending on the specialist "mixed anxiety and depression syndrome" either exists or not).

Funny thing about the diagnoses / labels for mental disease, they also include "demonic possession" which needs to be differentiated from a transitory psychosis lol.

But OK back to serious things.

Ever thought that, instead of recurring treatment-resistant depression, you could have developed PTSD? in PTSD symptoms begin 1 month after the event, (before one month it is not PTSD, it is an "acute stress reaction") but it can be delayed (the symptoms begin more than six months after).

And it can also be divided into acute and chronic - the second one lasts longer.

And there is also a "hidden" one which can be harder to find - but search for "transgenerational transmission of trauma" and you will find some articles explaining what it is.

The practical difference for you is that the talking is different (psychanalysis will still work, but the short therapies are different) and the medicine is different.

It seems to me that you have actually been through very stressful events and perhaps people have been focusing more on the depression side of things (after all, this is the suicide forum) and not the trauma side of it.

And if you actually had to stay months in hospital and everyone was trying to fix your depression but instead you were depressed because of traumatic event(s) (which do not need to be one single fixable event but can be a longer situation) *and* they ended up piling on a third traumatic situation after a second one, then no wonder you find it hard to improve, as everyone's fixing a symptom, not the cause.

Have you tried speaking with a trauma specialist? this means someone with a degree in either psychology or a board-certified psychiatrist, either of which has also undergone psychotherapy training by an internationally recognised institution and who has on top of that board-certified training for trauma psychotherapy?

Sorry to be so precise but so many call themselves "therapists" but are not the real thing. Always check the qualifications and who issued them.

 

[willitpass]

well, MDD is always "severe" imho.

But I also see you have a long history and you had problems with eating. I understand you are afraid of gaining weight, but being permanently hungry and eating everything without sugar has a bad effect on mental health (lack of food -> signal through the lymbic system that "something is missing" -> general feeling that "something is missing" -> "I feel very unwell" -> brain thinks "glad you noticed there's something wrong, let's reinforce that" -> I feel much worse -> my life is horrible, I feel bad the whole time, I don't want to eat, etc.)

This is a very, very simplified pathway.

Anyway, objectively, what happens if you gain 1 lb? if you drink that same weight in water it will do the same.

I saw on some previous thread you wrote that Wellbutrin helped but why did you also say you can't take it?

Nvm this is in the past.

But I saw you went through a lot, especially a lot through US psychiatry, which is very different from European in general, and in Europe it varies from country to country. Anxiety is often a symptom of depression, not a comorbidity (depending on the specialist "mixed anxiety and depression syndrome" either exists or not).

Funny thing about the diagnoses / labels for mental disease, they also include "demonic possession" which needs to be differentiated from a transitory psychosis lol.

But OK back to serious things.

Ever thought that, instead of recurring treatment-resistant depression, you could have developed PTSD? in PTSD symptoms begin 1 month after the event, (before one month it is not PTSD, it is an "acute stress reaction") but it can be delayed (the symptoms begin more than six months after).

And it can also be divided into acute and chronic - the second one lasts longer.

And there is also a "hidden" one which can be harder to find - but search for "transgenerational transmission of trauma" and you will find some articles explaining what it is.

The practical difference for you is that the talking is different (psychanalysis will still work, but the short therapies are different) and the medicine is different.

It seems to me that you have actually been through very stressful events and perhaps people have been focusing more on the depression side of things (after all, this is the suicide forum) and not the trauma side of it.

And if you actually had to stay months in hospital and everyone was trying to fix your depression but instead you were depressed because of traumatic event(s) (which do not need to be one single fixable event but can be a longer situation) *and* they ended up piling on a third traumatic situation after a second one, then no wonder you find it hard to improve, as everyone's fixing a symptom, not the cause.

Have you tried speaking with a trauma specialist? this means someone with a degree in either psychology or a board-certified psychiatrist, either of which has also undergone psychotherapy training by an internationally recognised institution and who has on top of that board-certified training for trauma psychotherapy?

Sorry to be so precise but so many call themselves "therapists" but are not the real thing. Always check the qualifications and who issued them.

As far as the PTSD, I have been through so much and had such a hectic experience I actually forgot to list that. I suppose my trauma has become so enmeshed in me that I forget that that's a diagnosis and not a normal thing. I've been diagnosed with C-PTSD, and almost all of my therapists have been trauma informed. All of my intensive therapy programs have included trauma informed therapy in them. The residential I went to, the one that left me with the most severe trauma of all, was funnily enough a trauma based facility. I have processed all of my childhood trauma back and forth, as well as worked on my trauma from residential. That was never neglected in all of the years. I just often forget about it because it just seems so normal to me, I don't know any different.

All of my therapists are licensed. I have never picked a therapist out of the phone book and hoped for the best. Most of them have been through larger organizations and I know they are all qualified. I believe it is a state law where I live that therapists cannot diagnose. I'm not sure of the specifics, but I have never been diagnosed with anything by a therapist, only ever psychiatrists. All I know is that my therapist were all adequately certified and through certified organizations.

 

[Dot]

Am awre tht hot-lnes mght snd cliche bt th/ whle idea of thm = 2 hve a plce whre u cn jst brk dwn & cry & hve sme1 b presnt t/ lt thngs out - hve u calld n.e of thse

Also - mny treatmnts r mnd-basd bt hve u lookd in2 n.e bdy-basd treatmnts

Thre r mny xplaind on th/ therpy typs thred bt n.ethng frm trma-rlease xerciss t/ shiatsu massge r oftn usd fr emotnl rlease

Therapy Methods & Alternatives Explained

"If you want to help someone you need to know something about them" - 'It's A Wonderful Life' Considering therapy but don't know where to start? Hopefully this can be a starting point about what all those different terms mean, and help to pick the right therapist. There are also options further...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[mellie5]

it must be bad to have tried so many things, adding to that that you are intelligent so you can see their "tricks" through from miles away.

And of course with so many well-intentioned people - including me - telling you to do this or to do that when perhaps you just want to be heard and not told what to do.

But if somehow chatting here helps, without being any kind of therapy or even pretending to be so, even if in a few years you will think the posts were the cringiest ever, why not? actually you have already helped someone even if you don't know.