I am against encouraging suicide

[Sk1n1M1n]

Hey. Just let you know that i am against the idea of encouraging anyone to end their lives. I understand that people have made up their minds.
but please don't give hope

please call 999/ 911 in emergency or 111

please accept any inpatient care. I did it for my psychotic breakdown and it really changed my perspective.
Doctors/nurses saved me.
I could of been sectioned but I went inpatient voluntary and it was the best thing I did.
Please have the courage, strength, determination to say "I need help ASAP"
Don't give into those nasty voices, thoughts saying you are worthless, your situation is hopeless. Fight like a tiger, ox, lion

 

[KiraLittleOwl]

Encouraging suicide actually against forum rules

 

[BipolarGuy]

Hey. Just let you know that i am against the idea of encouraging anyone to end their lives. I understand that people have made up their minds.
but please don't give hope

please call 999/ 911 in emergency or 111

please accept any inpatient care. I did it for my psychotic breakdown and it really changed my perspective.
Doctors/nurses saved me.
I could of been sectioned but I went inpatient voluntary and it was the best thing I did.
Please have the courage, strength, determination to say "I need help ASAP"
Don't give into those nasty voices, thoughts saying you are worthless, your situation is hopeless. Fight like a tiger, ox, lion

I agree.

In part.

Unfortunately NHS mental health care is very often exceptionally poor, and people (like me!) have been left wandering around a mental health unit with no medication and without being engaged in a therapy program.
The staff are organised so chaotically, that they aren't bothered about even sitting and speaking to you.
I had one worker who talked to me about how he has been given too many hours and how he was hoping to give some hours to a colleague.

Getting help is a real pain.
Slow to engage you in therapy if at all, quick to bang you up.

Now let me say what I really came on this thread to say.....

What will happen now that you've expressed this opinion is that the pro-suicide cult members will come on this thread and throw stuff at you like "promoting suicide is against the law/rules", or "we're pro-choice", or "there is a recovery section and so we don't encourage suicide", or "can you PROVE scientifically that encouraging suicide has ever happened".......

Ignore these comments and don't feel as though you need to engage.
Everyone knows what a minority of members on here are like, and you don't need to justify your observations or experience.

Feel free to PM me.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

I see nothing wrong with this thread as it's in the proper section. I'll be "that guy" though and say that we are indeed a pro choice forum, it's just a fact. We also don't encourage suicide as it's against our TOS, another fact.

Thank you for sharing your experience @Sk1n1M1n , I'm glad you found the help you needed.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Oh I forgot, you may also be called "pro-life" simply for not being "pro-death", because some members on here confuse "pro-choice" with "pro-death".

 

[Sinkinshyp]

I'm glad to hear you are on your path of recovery. I hope nothing but good things come your way. When we are so depressed we only see CTB we don't see any other way. People on the outside can see a way for us. Being here to be supportive of eachother on the path of recovery is much needed.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

You don't have to encourage, in fact it's against site rules. But you're also actively discouraging. It's a pro-choice site, not an everyone-decides-what-@Sk1n1M1n-wants-them-to site. You didn't share alternative options in the OP and how they helped you, but actively asked people to do what you want them to do.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Don't worry about this kind of thing OP. Making people aware of the options and of the things that worked for you isn't encouraging or discouraging anything. Obviously!
Rather than being worded as I said above (pro-life/pro-choice/pro-death), essentilly the same thing has been said in terms of 'encouraging' or 'discouraging'.
The implication being that presenting options other than ending life is equivalent to discouraging, which is blatantly false.
Just Ignore.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Don't worry about this kind of thing OP. Making people aware of the options and of the things that worked for you isn't encouraging or discouraging anything. Obviously!
Rather than being worded as I said above (pro-life/pro-choice/pro-death), essentilly the same thing has been said in terms of 'encouraging' or 'discouraging'.
The implication being that presenting options other than ending life is equivalent to discouraging, which is blatantly false.
Just Ignore.

Dang you're right. I don't have a clue what I'm saying and should be ignored. Good call. Whew! If only I could figure out how to delete my ign'ant comment. I'm just too...ig'nant. Every day. Like when I ask for proof of people's claims in order to avoid undue influence and making judgement calls and decisions based on disinformation, whether it's about a method or about claims there's a pro-suicide minority faction active on the site. Totes ign'ant. Thank you for protecting the OP from me and simultaneously obliquely putting me in my place. I would attempt to do better going forward but...I'm ign'ant.

 

[BipolarGuy]

Dang you're right. I don't have a clue what I'm saying and should be ignored. Good call. Whew! If only I could figure out how to delete my ign'ant comment. I'm just too...ig'nant. Every day. Like when I ask for proof of people's claims in order to avoid undue influence and making judgement calls and decisions based on disinformation, whether it's about a method or about claims there's a pro-suicide minority faction active on the site. Totes ign'ant. Thank you for protecting the OP from me and obliquely putting me in my place. I would attempt to do better but...I'm ign'ant.

OK.

Take care, and I hope whatever issues you have in your life resolve in order that you are able to be happy.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I hope whatever issues you have in your life resolve in order that you are able to be happy.

I wish the same for you.

 

[BipolarGuy]

I wish the same for you.

Thank you.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I agree.

In part.

Unfortunately NHS mental health care is very often exceptionally poor, and people (like me!) have been left wandering around a mental health unit with no medication and without being engaged in a therapy program.
The staff are organised so chaotically, that they aren't bothered about even sitting and speaking to you.
I had one worker who talked to me about how he has been given too many hours and how he was hoping to give some hours to a colleague.

Getting help is a real pain.
Slow to engage you in therapy if at all, quick to bang you up.

Now let me say what I really came on this thread to say.....

What will happen now that you've expressed this opinion is that the pro-suicide cult members will come on this thread and throw stuff at you like "promoting suicide is against the law/rules", or "we're pro-choice", or "there is a recovery section and so we don't encourage suicide", or "can you PROVE scientifically that encouraging suicide has ever happened".......

Ignore these comments and don't feel as though you need to engage.
Everyone knows what a minority of members on here are like, and you don't need to justify your observations or experience.

Feel free to PM me.

/agree

Don't worry about this kind of thing OP. Making people aware of the options and of the things that worked for you isn't encouraging or discouraging anything. Obviously!
Rather than being worded as I said above (pro-life/pro-choice/pro-death), essentilly the same thing has been said in terms of 'encouraging' or 'discouraging'.
The implication being that presenting options other than ending life is equivalent to discouraging, which is blatantly false.
Just Ignore.

/agree too

I do not believe there is a conflict between maintaining integrity of choice and showing compassion in an effort to support. Things are complex and nuanced. Taken to it's extreme, any reply whatsoever could be taken as an attempt to influence an outcome, but in the real world, that's just silly.

 

[262653]

Ed: Given the nature of the recovery forum, it makes sense to encourage people to live here, though an inverted post "against encouraging life" with the call to commit sudoku and motivating speeches would be taken down even in SD forum, and rightfully so.

Also I think it's foolish to ignore people just because they disagree with me, unless I don't want my opinion to be challenged maybe.

Encouraging suicide actually against forum rules

True, but it's hard to draw the line between subtle encouragement and expressing personal views. I believe the rule is here for legal and maybe political reasons, not to get the site in more trouble. In practice you can get away with encouraging suicide (like safe travels and peace wishing in goodbye posts, or saying to others that their lives won't improve because "I've been here") and encouraging life (like shaming for wanting to die, or "too young -- no ctb"), as long as you don't make it way too obvious.

 

[BipolarGuy]

In practice you can get away with encouraging suicide [...] and encouraging life, as long as you don't make it way too obvious.

And this is the problem that innocent users on this site face.
Thank you.

 

[Giraffey]

Speaking for myself, whilst I appreciate the upbeat sentiment of the OP and agree that it is morally wrong (and against the site rules) to encourage suicide:

• I have always been aware of the emergency service numbers. 999 (UK), 911 (USA), 112 (Europe), 000 (Australia). These should not usually be relevant to one's circumstances if a decision to commit suicide is made rationally and after a considerable amount of thought.
• Medication will not improve my life circumstances which are objectively limiting to my future goals. As a hypnotherapist myself, I already take care of regulating my emotions when necessary. I found CBT ineffective in my teenage years and disliked it during training as well, I've never used it with a client. An in-patient admission would serve no purpose for me.
• Doctors/nurses are my friends and colleagues and I respect them dearly, but if I committed to ending my life, there would be no opportunity to 'save' it.
• Again, voluntary or involuntary admission will not provide any benefit to me. I'm not clinically depressed, I suffer from no mental illnesses, I am a grounded and rational individual and my life's circumstances cannot be syndromized.
• Requests for help sometimes fall on deaf ears; sometimes people don't want or need help; sometimes people can't help. My circumstances are beyond rectification, again, objectively not subjectively.
• A stirring sentiment, yet again, not all of us are plagued by such voices be they actual or metaphorical. Not all of us here who are contemplating suicide are plagued by depression.

Again, I appreciate the positivity of the post, but suicide is a complex decision that cannot and should not be reduced to motivational platitudes.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Sk1n1M1n]

It's just wrong to say safe travels as as it says unintentionally to end their lives without being direct

 

[LittleJem]

I see nothing wrong with this thread as it's in the proper section. I'll be "that guy" though and say that we are indeed a pro choice forum, it's just a fact. We also don't encourage suicide as it's against our TOS, another fact.

Thank you for sharing your experience @Sk1n1M1n , I'm glad you found the help you needed.

yes, EXACTLY. Pro-choice is not Pro-death. It is respecting peoples' choices. And exactly, @Brick In The Wall this is the recovery section so entirely the right place for this comment.

I personally think that calling people who are respectful of peoples' choices and wishes to die a 'death cult' is not respectful of their right to choose. I do not think SS is a death cult, and all of us would wish the rest of us to not suffer anymore and to recover if that is an option. But that doesn't mean we should patronise people who have made their decision after weighing up their own suffering.
I am currently, for about 3 or 4 days, feeling better thanks to acupuncture. It is still pretty unbelievable, I don't know how long it will last for. But I will always always be pro-choice, even if my recovery lasts, and if it does not. Because I know what this suffering is and life with it is unbearable for me.

 

[Giraffey]

It's just wrong to say safe travels as as it says unintentionally to end their lives without being direct

That is a difficult area, and I'm personally not a fan of "goodbye threads" for various reasons. But what should one say to somebody who has autonomously made the decision to end their life, of their own free will? Should one implore them to reconsider? That would surely be impinging on their right to make their own decisions without judgement. Should one congratulate them on their bravery? I would argue that is similarly insensitive as it may subconsciously create a peer-pressure that prevents them from acting on any last-minute doubts. Should one simply say nothing then? This doesn't sound particularly appealing either.

In the end, I believe it is a matter of one's own moral judgement, which as we know is subjective. Take the classic runaway train problem - there are two train tracks, a speeding train and a track switch. If you do nothing, the train will plough straight along the track and kill ten innocent people in its wake, but if you pull the lever the train will switch paths and kill just one innocent person. What do you do? Are the people who pull the lever any more or less moral than those who don't? It's subjective.

My personal approach is to generally refrain from commenting on goodbye threads, and when providing advice to those who have already made their decision, I always say something like - "I wish you peace, in whatever form that may take". Is that indirectly encouraging suicide? Absolutely not. Can I sleep at night? Yes, absolutely. But again, it is subjective. Some people would go further and say "safe travels", others would be more cautious.

 

[Mm80]

This is an argument that will never end or have a definitive answer.

 

[BipolarGuy]

I don't think anyone has ever described this website in its entirety as a "death cult", although I may be wrong.

I know that what I've repeatedly said is that I am concerned about the behaviour of a minority of members.

My plan only a few days ago was to be dead by now.

 

[almost_dead]

Hey. Just let you know that i am against the idea of encouraging anyone to end their lives. I understand that people have made up their minds.
but please don't give hope

please call 999/ 911 in emergency or 111

please accept any inpatient care. I did it for my psychotic breakdown and it really changed my perspective.
Doctors/nurses saved me.
I could of been sectioned but I went inpatient voluntary and it was the best thing I did.
Please have the courage, strength, determination to say "I need help ASAP"
Don't give into those nasty voices, thoughts saying you are worthless, your situation is hopeless. Fight like a tiger, ox, lion

Hello FBI

 

[Deleted member 1465]

That is a difficult area, and I'm personally not a fan of "goodbye threads" for various reasons. But what should one say to somebody who has autonomously made the decision to end their life, of their own free will? Should one implore them to reconsider? That would surely be impinging on their right to make their own decisions without judgement. Should one congratulate them on their bravery? I would argue that is similarly insensitive as it may subconsciously create a peer-pressure that prevents them from acting on any last-minute doubts. Should one simply say nothing then? This doesn't sound particularly appealing either

I personally find this really hard, even after so long. It's really difficult for me to walk that line. I think it's possible, but it's still going to be tough because whatever you say could be construed as an attempt at influence either way, but saying nothing after you have read a heartfelt message is not helpful either.
However, I think people with any empathy can read between the lines and understand that language is inherently clumsy in such a delicate circumstance. It's not that hard to interpret context and allow for the awkwardness of responses that try to express some compassion without attempting to deny choice.
Sometimes it can be better to say something, even something clumsy, so at least someone feels heard, and not responding for fear of exerting undue influence (either way) is most unfortunate.
Edit: I don't visit the main forum for this reason. I used to; I used to try and offer what support I could if people wanted it, not to encourage either way, but to act as a sounding board for those that wanted such. I just can't do it now. Been here too long and lost too many people. I'm not made of stone and it gets to me.

 

[Giraffey]

Well said @Underscore, very poignant. Your thoughts largely echo my own. When I first joined I sometimes provided information on methods, at a certain point I had an avalanche of guilt - that level of interaction was just a step too far out of my moral comfort zone. I still don't always think I make the correct judgement call on whether to comment or not, or what to say when I do, but as you say: it's really difficult to walk that line.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I sometimes provided information on methods, at a certain point I had an avalanche of guilt - that level of interaction was just a step too far out of my moral comfort zone.

I simply can't do that. However, I don't have an issue with those that do, because I believe that I understand where they are coming from. But I just can't. I don't think there is a double standard for me there either, it's just how I am.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

It's just wrong to say safe travels as as it says unintentionally to end their lives without being direct

Saying safe travels is an acceptance of their choice for their own life.

If it's wrong for you, don't do it. But to say it's wrong for everyone else is exactly the kind of attitude about suicide that folks are so grateful to not have shoved in their face on this forum.




Btw, my impression was that this thread was posted in Suicide Discussion and mods moved it to Recovery. The information presented and the the sentiment of the title are far more appropriate on this part of the forum than the other.

 

[TheQ22]

I don't think anyone has ever described this website in its entirety as a "death cult", although I may be wrong.

I know that what I've repeatedly said is that I am concerned about the behaviour of a minority of members.

My plan only a few days ago was to be dead by now.

There are definitely some "death cu*ts" on here.

 

[BipolarGuy]

There are definitely some "death cu*ts" on here.

How very DARE you.
You must be a pro-lifer!

Grrrr

 

[Lupgevif]

It's just wrong to say safe travels as as it says unintentionally to end their lives without being direct

No, it doesn't. Safe travels are wished to those who already made their decision, after they made their decision. It doesn't influence people in any way.

 

[TheQ22]

How very DARE you.
You must be a pro-lifer!

Grrrr

Calm down Matt Hancock