how young is too young

[moonflow3r]

title

 

[frommolecules2stars]

To ctb?

 

[amomentspeace]

A lot of people here consider 25 the "minimum" ctb age. Honestly depending on your reasons being young shouldn't matter. I understand their point tho, brains do change a lot in this time. It's up to you to decide. If you are unsure what to do I urge you to keep chatting here. People are very kind here. Besafe

 

[Namelesa]

to ctb? I would say there isn't an age to be too young to ctb at as we were forced here without choice and so shouldn't be forced to go through more pain just to maybe POTENTIAL recover. We should be allow to exit anything we were forced into. Also someone can't regret killing themselves as when they are dead as in non-existence they can't feel or desire anything.

 

[Saturn_]

A lot can and will change in one's teens and early 20s. Plus, at those ages, your perception of life could be warped by a bad family. When you get away from people like that as you grow older, things have the opportunity for improvement. A lot of burdens you have to shoulder throughout childhood can be done away with once new opportunities arise. And, of course, your brain has a long way to go in terms of maturing.

 

[moonflow3r]

To ctb?

yes

 

[The_Hunter]

to ctb? I would say there isn't an age to be too young to ctb at as we were forced here without choice and so shouldn't be forced to go through more pain just to maybe POTENTIAL recover.

Everyone's circumstances are incredibly different. There are people (considerable amounts) who have fair & honest opportunities in sufficient number [of opportunities] to recover. And if while we're on the inevitable, one might add that not-so-horrific experiences of emotion (good things, if I may dare say) also appear to come without warning & seemingly unstoppable occurrences--to the point where the particularly ensuffered can feel a sense of misalignment with a positive event to them; because it is just that: a surprise, a kind of inevitable occurrence that we did not expect because it violates our feelings. And such a thing happens with negative events, too; hence the commonality of "how could this happen to me?". It was not part of our reality until it became part of our reality.

Also someone can't regret killing themselves as when they are dead as in non-existence they can't feel or desire anything.

Maybe. But conscience (especially in highly emotional states; ie, before death) is a powerful thing. If someone feels violated by [dying of] suicide, then they may feel horrifically morally indigated by actions they themselves perform, on themselves—an unfortunate occurrence that I would not wish upon anybody. And the weight of suicide is such that it should be excruciatingly overconsidered and certainly not done on a whim. "You should stop thinking and go for it since you can't regret it" carries the flaw of the fact that regret and moral discomfort cannot be shaken off, and it is profoundly traumatic for a person to perform actions they feel are self-violating according to their own thoughts.

The discomfort that most people feel towards suicide is an invitation to ponder more about one's values and deepest wishes of life, what they feel deprived of most. To say one must cheaply discard this valuable (and frankly unshakable) question, of "why", is to leave a person in a visceral limbo; and to say actions (no less, that carry the weight of suicide) ought to be done without exploring one's mind, in intentional avoidance of self reflection—is a position that I consider to neglect the greatest virtues of humanity; that is, to inquire, to doubt, to ultimately discover: to move when stillness begins to feel fatal.

Why not think about it? If you can't think about it when you're dead, may as well ponder the possible unwanted implications in life. One's feelings, desires, and morals—should never be left behind, regardless of any loss of being able to toy with them after death. Despite loss of consciousness after death, to say that someone who feels they would regret dying by suicide, should go through with it anyway; is just saying that someone should do something they do not want to, that one should suppress what should not be suppressed: genuine questions.

 

[Saponification]

No such thing as too young, in my opinion. Anyone who tells you that you're too young to make this decision is being patronizing. Personally, I've known what I wanted since I was a pre-adolescent.

 

[GuppyBoyo]

A lot of people here consider 25 the "minimum" ctb age. Honestly depending on your reasons being young shouldn't matter. I understand their point tho, brains do change a lot in this time. It's up to you to decide. If you are unsure what to do I urge you to keep chatting here. People are very kind here. Besafe

is this related to the fact that 25 is the age when your brain fully develops ? i guess that has a bit of merit
but then again i assume it's different for different people

 

[The_Hunter]

A lot can and will change in one's teens and early 20s. Plus, at those ages, your perception of life could be warped by a bad family. When you get away from people like that as you grow older, things have the opportunity for improvement. A lot of burdens you have to shoulder throughout childhood can be done away with once new opportunities arise. And, of course, your brain has a long way to go in terms of maturing.

This. Suicidalistic wishes can in many cases originate from unfavorable surroundings--if you are a teen, those surroundings carry the fair chance of changing: by virtue of the pure amount of difference that transitioning into an adult brings, into one's life.

is this related to the fact that 25 is the age when your brain fully develops ? i guess that has a bit of merit
but then again i assume it's different for different people

To me the merit is moreso societal than wholly biological. Yes, intense emotional can be more present closer to nascence than maturity--but I think there is just so much change that goes on in the average teenager's life cycle up to college that justifies a serious consideration on the capacity for change one person's life usually experiences (a serious amount) in that lifetime, and that this ought to be considered and pondered firsthand. It's easy to dismiss but at the same time, it's hard to dismiss. And so, so easy to forget, if I may add.

 

[E Butler]

You can ruin your life at any age unfortunately

 

[Namelesa]

Everyone's circumstances are incredibly different. There are people (considerable amounts) who have fair & honest opportunities in sufficient number [of opportunities] to recover. And if while we're on the inevitable, one might add that not-so-horrific experiences of emotion (good things, if I may dare say) also appear to come without warning & seemingly unstoppable occurrences--to the point where the particularly ensuffered can feel a sense of misalignment with a positive event to them; because it is just that: a surprise, a kind of inevitable occurrence that we did not expect because it violates our feelings. And such a thing happens with negative events, too; hence the commonality of "how could this happen to me?". It was not part of our reality until it became part of our reality.

The problem is recovery isn't guaranteed. Even if you do a lot of different things, your situation may still be sucky when if you die you can. If people want to risk continuing life and potential succeeding in recovery or not go ahead like how you can risk an attempt maybe succeeding or failing. Personally both recovery and suicide are complete equal options to take as they both lead to the goal of less/no suffering.

Maybe. But conscience (especially in highly emotional states; ie, before death) is a powerful thing. If someone feels violated by [dying of] suicide, then they may feel horrifically morally indigated by actions they themselves perform, on themselves—an unfortunate occurrence that I would not wish upon anybody. And the weight of suicide is such that it should be excruciatingly overconsidered and certainly not done on a whim. "You should stop thinking and go for it since you can't regret it" carries the flaw of the fact that regret and moral discomfort cannot be shaken off, and it is profoundly traumatic for a person to perform actions they feel are self-violating according to their own thoughts.

The discomfort that most people feel towards suicide is an invitation to ponder more about one's values and deepest wishes of life, what they feel deprived of most. To say one must cheaply discard this valuable (and frankly unshakable) question, of "why", is to leave a person in a visceral limbo; and to say actions (no less, that carry the weight of suicide) ought to be done without exploring one's mind, in intentional avoidance of self reflection—is a position that I consider to neglect the greatest virtues of humanity; that is, to inquire, to doubt, to ultimately discover: to move when stillness begins to feel fatal.

Why not think about it? If you can't think about it when you're dead, may as well ponder the possible unwanted implications in life. One's feelings, desires, and morals—should never be left behind, regardless of any loss of being able to toy with them after death. Despite loss of consciousness after death, to say that someone who feels they would regret dying by suicide, should go through with it anyway; is just saying that someone should do something they do not want to, that one should suppress what should not be suppressed: genuine questions.

Its totally understandable and valid for a person to not go through with painful process of killing themselves. Obviously if there is more regret than a desire to die then they shouldn't do it but if there is more of a desire than I don't see anything bad with that as they can't suffer any long term consequences after doing it. We can make actions that we first regret a bit doing it in the first place but ultimately be better for us later on which includes suicide. Also you can regret continuing to live but you can't regret dying so there is an imbalance here. To me SI is enough of a deterrent for people who are more regretting it than desiring it to not to ctb. There shouldn't be these stupid restrictions.

 

[GuppyBoyo]

This question carries with it the concern that one may regret their decision in the future had they not committed

How people usually go about this is trying to make a value judgement of what they're *potentially* getting from their continued living to what they may be burdening themselves with, and while understandable, i personally disagree with this approach

due to the sheer number of future possibilities that may arise due to one's continued existence, one cannot claim in good reason that that accounted for all, or for most, and it is not about the external circumstances of the world around us, but it is about our changing selves, we cannot account for how we might change

and thusly for one to make this decision in confidence, they must acknowledge and accept that they are making a decision in **ignorance**, that they may change their mind in the future, but that they choose to carry on and get the outcome they want nonetheless, regardless of potential regret, joys, meaning... etc


PS: i am in no way calling ignorant or calling into question your ability to judge you situation, i am simply challenging the notion that suicide is an act based solely on pragmatic value judgement. (I'll try to into greater detail in a separate post)

 

[The_Hunter]

(I'll try to into greater detail in a separate post)

I really hope your do! I found your post very logical & profound, looking forward to your future work! Take care :)

one cannot claim in good reason that [one's current view accounts for all]

I've had the same realization myself at various points. I think it true.

Appreciate the philosophical touch to this. Thank you for your words!

 

[(in)sane]

I dont think there's a minimum age. No one should be encouraged to die or purposely introduced to a community like SS, but at any age if someone comes to a point where they themselves decide that they'd rather be dead than alive then that should be their choice imo.

 

[Blueberry Panic]

Anything below 16 , is my answer

 

[Rymrgand]

There's not really a "too young" age to CTB. Each person has different circumstances. In some cases, it's completely correct to do it even when you are a child, and the ones who say it aren't us, the users of the evil prosuicide forum, but doctors and governments. In some countries, euthanasia is legal for children too, assuming their circumstances are hopeless.

In other cases, if it's a simple case of depression, I would definitely recommend to try to recover for some months or years before CTB, but that's me being emotional, to be honest. I don't enjoy when good people die, I prefer if they try to survive even if they suffer, which is kinda selfish.

But what I think doesn't matter. Every human has the right of self-determination. They don't have a duty to live. If they decide to stop living and therefore participating in society, nobody can really do anything to stop them, even if they are young.

Of course, you could say that if children take poor decisions and for their own good, we should stop them if they have poor reasons. But... You can't really have poor reasons to CTB. If you are capable of overcoming the SI, then your life is bad enough and you deserve to make the choice. Even if your problems are temporary, you are the one who needs to choose if it's worth to live 10 more days of pain even if after that you will live 70 years of happiness. Even if you are depressed, or not thinking "rationally" or whatever, it's not like you are going to regret CTB.

is this related to the fact that 25 is the age when your brain fully develops ? i guess that has a bit of merit
but then again i assume it's different for different people

I'm pretty sure that fact about the brain is a myth. Or at least really exaggerated. While it's true that, like the rest of the body, the brain goes through several stages, it doesn't stop developing at 25 or any other age. It keeps evolving for your whole life. Of course, you could say that the most important stages of development finish when you are young, but saying specifically that it happens at 25 is too arbitrary. If anything, it would happen in your teen years.

 

[SchrodingerIsDed]

to ctb? I would say there isn't an age to be too young to ctb at as we were forced here without choice and so shouldn't be forced to go through more pain just to maybe POTENTIAL recover. We should be allow to exit anything we were forced into. Also someone can't regret killing themselves as when they are dead as in non-existence they can't feel or desire anything.

How do you know you were forced into it? For all we know, we all made the explicit decision to come into existence at the exact point and time we did and knowing exactly the kinds of lives we would lead.

So you'd be fine with an 8 year old killing themselves? There has to be certain limits. Some people are capable of living full, natural, plentiful, satisfactory lives. They won't know whether they have one of those or not until their brain is fully developed, at least 21, but even that is a child. But at the same time I could see the argument for allowing someone old enough to fight and die in war the ability to CTB. So if we consider them old enough to die there, then they're old enough to die by their own hand. Even so I'd say the minimum reasonable age is 25, even if not the minimum requirement.

 

[divinemistress36]

Anybody should have the right to die that is 18 and over but a lot can change in ones life especially from 18-30 . I wish some of those under 30 on here would give life one more shot . Nobody has their life figured in their 20s, sometimes not even their 30s and older.

 

[Namelesa]

How do you know you were forced into it? For all we know, we all made the explicit decision to come into existence at the exact point and time we did and knowing exactly the kinds of lives we would lead.

So you'd be fine with an 8 year old killing themselves? There has to be certain limits. Some people are capable of living full, natural, plentiful, satisfactory lives. They won't know whether they have one of those or not until their brain is fully developed, at least 21, but even that is a child. But at the same time I could see the argument for allowing someone old enough to fight and die in war the ability to CTB. So if we consider them old enough to die there, then they're old enough to die by their own hand. Even so I'd say the minimum reasonable age is 25, even if not the minimum requirement.

Based on evidence we know here, there probably isn't some other world after death or before birth. I would say its fictional stuff made by humans.

I would be fine with a 8 year old killing themselves as I would be fine with any age doing so as death isn't a bad thing to person is dead as in non existence we can't feel, do, desire or fear anything so there is literally no problems and no suffering. It doesn't matter to the individual that dies if life got better for them if they continued life as they won't regret dying. Its immoral to force people to live when they don't want to like how its immoral for people to stick to a toxic relationship that could potential improve. The brain development thing a bad argument (and also partially a myth) as someone who is younger still won't suffer consequences from a successful suicide.

Whats important is for someone who wants to suffer less be able to do so in whatever way they want.

 

[fallingtopieces]

I tire of these posts, especially when people start talking about it being okay for children to kill themselves. You should start a petition for assisted suicide for children. Give 9-year olds peaceful methods! You have kids who accidentally kill themselves playing the choking game ffs. Kids kill themselves from being bullied, isn't it awesome they escaped life? Don't you wish they posted goodbye threads? Even better, let's just kill everybody, because if you're dead you can never feel pain!

At the very least, if you think it's okay for children to kill themselves, stay away from children.

 

[wiggy]

To suggest that age doesn't matter is completely deranged to me. Minimum ages are established in all aspects of civilized life for actions that require full cognitive development like sexual consent, full criminal liability, entering into contracts, etc. I don't think very many people would argue that there should be no age requirement for any of those, and the decision to take your own life requires at least as much cognitive development.

 

[encore]

IMO people who pedal a certain age as the "permissible" one for committing suicide are pushing the very same condescending thing toxic pro-lifers are. anyone who knows anything about brain development will tell you that the "magic age of 25" thing as the main benchmark for how aware/mature the person is totally a myth. our brain NEVER stops developing, with the same logic we can say that nobody should CTB before they're 40 - yet here we are.

i totally understand why so many older users want young people to wait, but let's be honest, most of us had suicidal ideation/depression/any other mental illness way before we hit 25. nobody is in a position to tell you how valid your suffering is, nobody can truly see how much pain you're in and what the best way out would be. choosing life doesn't guarantee things will get better, even if they do for many people, it's all about whether or not staying and seeing how life ends up being is worth it for YOU, at THIS point in your life.

 

[Namelesa]

To suggest that age doesn't matter is completely deranged to me. Minimum ages are established in all aspects of civilized life for actions that require full cognitive development like sexual consent, full criminal liability, entering into contracts, etc. I don't think very many people would argue that there should be no age requirement for any of those, and the decision to take your own life requires at least as much cognitive development.

the difference with things like sex and suicide is that sex has consequences for not properly understanding what you are getting into and much more of a potential for getting manipulated and abused with lower cognitive thinking but a successful suicide doesn't have any consequences as you can't feel anything negative when being dead.

 

[grapevoid]

I think this is Highly situational, in normal situations that don't involve extreme trauma or health issues it's my opinion that people should at least TRY to wait until their mid 20s to see if life changes for them, explore all the treatment options, and yes, allow their brain to finish developing. I think it's possible for many young people who are experiencing depression to recover and be happy they tried and maybe even go on to lead a relatively happy life though I understand that's not always the case. But again, that is an opinion.

I don't think it's possible to have a "set age" as everyone matures and develops at a different rate.

 

[wiggy]

IMO people who pedal a certain age as the "permissible" one for committing suicide are pushing the very same condescending thing toxic pro-lifers are. anyone who knows anything about brain development will tell you that the "magic age of 25" thing as the main benchmark for how aware/mature the person is totally a myth. our brain NEVER stops developing, with the same logic we can say that nobody should CTB before they're 40 - yet here we are.

That is a false equivalency. To forbid an adult from having sexual intercourse by means of coercion is a clear violation of his personal freedom, does that by extension mean that children should be allowed to do the same? Children and adults are treated differently, if you can't conceive of a reason for that you have either never met a child or you have never met an adult.

i totally understand why so many older users want young people to wait, but let's be honest, most of us had suicidal ideation/depression/any other mental illness way before we hit 25.

Again, this is specious reasoning. What about the people who had suicidal impulses as children but not as adults? If a kid at some point decides it would be cool join the army, should he be able to legally bind himself to a tour right then and there?

nobody is in a position to tell you how valid your suffering is, nobody can truly see how much pain you're in and what the best way out would be. choosing life doesn't guarantee things will get better, even if they do for many people, it's all about whether or not staying and seeing how life ends up being is worth it for YOU, at THIS point in your life.

The purpose of age of consent laws is not to truly peer into the soul of the individual and decode their true intentions - that is unavailable to anyone else, and often yourself, regardless of age. The purpose is harm reduction, cut and dry.

the difference with things like sex and suicide is that sex has consequences for not properly understanding what you are getting into and much more of a potential for getting manipulated and abused with lower cognitive thinking but a successful suicide doesn't have any consequences as you can't feel anything negative when being dead.

If death has no consequence, then there is no moral foundation for penalizing murder.

 

[fallingtopieces]

the difference with things like sex and suicide is that sex has consequences for not properly understanding what you are getting into and much more of a potential for getting manipulated and abused with lower cognitive thinking but a successful suicide doesn't have any consequences as you can't feel anything negative when being dead.

this argument that if you're dead, you can't feel anything is pointless, meaningless.

 

[Namelesa]

If death has no consequence, then there is no moral foundation for penalizing murder.

the reason murder is bad is cus that is a person killing someone else unconsentally, suicide is something someone does to themselves making it not immoral.

 

[grapevoid]

is this related to the fact that 25 is the age when your brain fully develops ? i guess that has a bit of merit
but then again i assume it's different for different people

Your prefrontal cortex should develop completely in your 20s - 25 being the average age but it can be sooner or later depending on the specific person. I do think this is an extremely relevant point due to the fact that your prefrontal cortex controls emotional regulation and complex problem solving.

 

[SchrodingerIsDed]

Based on evidence we know here, there probably isn't some other world after death or before birth. I would say its fictional stuff made by humans.

I would be fine with a 8 year old killing themselves as I would be fine with any age doing so as death isn't a bad thing to person is dead as in non existence we can't feel, do, desire or fear anything so there is literally no problems and no suffering. It doesn't matter to the individual that dies if life got better for them if they continued life as they won't regret dying. Its immoral to force people to live when they don't want to like how its immoral for people to stick to a toxic relationship that could potential improve. The brain development thing a bad argument (and also partially a myth) as someone who is younger still won't suffer consequences from a successful suicide.

Whats important is for someone who wants to suffer less be able to do so in whatever way they want.

But the thing is human understanding is so minuscule that the amount of evidence we've collected amounts to nothing. How did we even get here? Without having the answer to that question, I don't think we can for certain claim that there is nothing after death. I really hope there is nothing after death. But something I've pondered on here before is: if the universe is infinite, anything that can happen on an infinite timeline will happen. So if it's physically possible, it will happen. Over and over again. That means our exactly lives could be regenerated, and after we died, trillions of years could go by in the blink of an eye, just as the billions of years prior to our birth did, then suddenly we were here. Again. After dying.

But if everyone has these thoughts of suicide from time to time, isn't it also immoral to allow those with underdeveloped brains to make that decision for themselves?

The brain development thing isn't a bad argument or a myth. I've linked a lot of studies regarding it in a previous thread like this. The standard belief of scientists is that adolescence continues until 24-25. Basically, they're kids.

It's not suffering less. It's going to generate a lot of suffering to leave this world, as well. ESPECIALLY upon failure. It's this hard for us ADULTS to CTB, and a lot of us fail, but you think a child has the capacity to be able to do it properly and responsibly?

It may even generate more suffering than they otherwise would have had to experience. While it's true it kind of "won't matter after they're gone," that's also a bad argument, because you could use that same logic to justify torturing someone for 50 years and then since they eventually die, you could say "Well it didn't matter anyway, because they're dead now."