Method Homemade Debreather

[ArtsyDrawer]

I've read some days ago about this magnificent idea of a "Debreather".
From what I gather, it's basically a scuba mask that transports your air into a co2 scrubber and into a sealed bag. You then breathe the air from that bag, minus the co2 you exhale, meaning nitrogen and oxygen. You then exhale more and more nitrogen while your oxygen levels drop and after about 30 minutes you're done.
That's the first prototype, something you can easily build at home. Alternatively, you can make your own mask. At least I'm hoping a homemade mask would work - I have some serious quality duct tape on a level I've never seen before.
Sounds great in theory.
I've looked through google and saw some aquarium co2 scrubbers, mainly "soda lime". It's also used in medical procedures where co2 is not wanted.
I'll need to dig through my history a little, but you can find this stuff readily available on Amazon. The second debreather prototype shows a scuba mask connected to three pipes and mentions some sort of loop breathing thing.
The first debreather goes through one container of soda lime, while the second goes through three.
The second debreather also looks a bit more menacing.
So my point here is this - if instead of this "loop breathing" thing I buy three containers of soda lime, separate them a bit by a length of hose (closest translation) and connect that to a bag, would it not be the same?

EDIT: A rebreather is an actual scuba mask! The whole gimmick of the debreather is that it's actually based on the rebreather mask's already built-in mechanism!
One could build this thing at home!
Sure, it's not cheap, but you can easily build this thing at home!
An example of a rebreather: https://www.hollisrebreathers.com/product/mod-1/
From what I gather, you just connect two pipes into a bag, one is for inhaling only, one is for exhaling only. The mask does all the work!

 

[dreamsofdestruction]

Interested. Subscribing.

A complete new rebreather set seems to cost from 2500€ upwards. It's not that I couldn't afford it, but it seems to be a bit pricey just for experimenting, even when considering that you can't take money to the grave. Maybe you could do with just the mask and leave off some of the regulation and other stuff and improvise some things.

 

[dousavetheworld]

Where did you see the Debreather? Sounds interesting and the principal seems similar to the exit bag solution:)

 

[ArtsyDrawer]

Well, shit. I can't find actual evidence whether the rebreather is just the mask or the entire thing, tanks included. If it's just the mask, I've seen masks go from 75 to a good thousand and higher.
If it's the whole thing... Sawing one of those in half would cost a kidney if I buy the whole thing with the tanks. I don't have that kind of money to throw yet.

As much as I hate to reference the goddamn surgery in every second post, if it works, I would have some death science money.
At this rate, I'll become the next Nitchske. lol

 

[dreamsofdestruction]

Seems the thing they built was not based on a commercial scuba system.



It actually looks like a fun project to build. I might give it a try.

 

[DreamCatcher]

I think you need some kind of air circulation system to rotate the air so the co2 gets to the scrubber and the scrubbed air gets back to your mask. Offhand I'm not sure how to do this, but you'd need enough flow and pressure that you didn't feel starved for breath.

Something along the lines of a closed rebreather system would be perfect off the shelf if you removed the O2 bottle, but those are quite expensive.

The key part seems to be the "Counter lung" It's the place where your exhaled air is stored before you breathe in again keeping that same air in the system without needing anything from the outside, or losing any to the outside.

Maybe just a bag that could expand and contract could do that.

So

Mask > Scrubber > Counter lung > Mask

Maybe you could use your own exhalation force to do it all without any electronics or fans, but the scrubber would probably need to be over a large area so the flow could go through without too much difficulty. Maybe a large airtight box or tote with the soda lime spread across a large area.

Actually thinking like that you might be able to just connect the mask to a bag that could expand and contract that had loose fill "packets" of soda lime scrubber in it. Do it all with just one hose, the mask, and the scrubber bag.

Or something even sillier and getting a huge plastic bag, getting the same packets of soda lime (How much???) and just zipping yourself up inside. It'd eat the CO2, you'd eat the oxygen and eventually the bus would arrive. But if you need to force air through the scrubber that wouldn't work.

Lots of interesting possibilities. With a little design work and experimentation something simple should be easily possible.

Something like this for the scrubber:

Sofnodive 797 CO2 Absorbent Cartridge (Box of 2) - Benthic Scuba

Sofnodive 797 CO2 Absorbent Cartridge

benthicscuba.ca

Enough for 6 hours of CO2 filtering, should be more than enough. Kind of expensive but it'd do the do I think with the appropriate associated equipment. I'm sure you could find cheaper, but this stuff is rated for human breathing and is made to do this job.

 

[pane]

DreamCatcher, the linked article posted by Dreamsofdestruction shows an early version of the debreather from many years ago assembled from off-the-shelf parts along with an explanation of the mechanism by which it works. Aside from the counter-lung there's no need for any other scuba equipment.

Do you think you could put together that version or something similar?

 

[RM5998]

So, from what I'm seeing here, this is essentially just absorbing the CO2 from the exhaled air, and feeding back the purified air to the person attached.

In theory, all I see this needing is a pretty large airtight bag, a couple of airtight hoses and some connectors, a mask and some soda lime. However, the extent to which the bag can keep contracting while keeping the pressure level is one question that needs to be raised. I'm guessing that it would need to have a smooth contracting cycle for this to be possible, because a pressure drop in the air would trigger accelerated breathing and an impulse to throw the mask off. Another problem is the fact that the CO2 absorption is exothermic - there needs to be a way to make sure that the heat doesn't rupture the system (this is why it's a bad idea to just stuff soda lime into the counterlung - it's probably just going to melt). A third question is the calculation of how much of the soda lime is required to keep absorbing all the CO2 - this is going to be pretty simple, just evaluate n in PV = nRT, take 1 mole of Ca(OH)2 for every mole of CO2, and double that for safety (I don't know on which side of the ideal gas equation this is going, I'll defer to people who have an actual knowledge of thermodynamics).

I can see this enhancing the inert gas methods considerably, however. There's no need to buy ultra-pure N2 or He anymore, one could just buy a bit more than one would, and strap a counterlung and a CO2 scrubber. There's an increase in the amount of piping, but it's probably going to make the method more reliable irrespective of the O2 content of the inert gas sample purchased.

 

[DreamCatcher]

DreamCatcher, the linked article posted by Dreamsofdestruction shows an early version of the debreather from many years ago assembled from off-the-shelf parts along with an explanation of the mechanism by which it works. Aside from the counter-lung there's no need for any other scuba equipment.

Do you think you could put together that version or something similar?

Yeah I think it would be fairly straightforward to build something like that. Maybe a little trial and error to get the design optimized but the parts and a spare weekend and it should be possible.

Probably slightly more expensive than other methods, but for a painless and quick way to go it might be hard to beat. I'm seriously considering it as an option for my CTB.

One big advantage is you wouldn't need any inert gasses or other things, just the parts and the CO2 scrubber material which is fairly easy to get anywhere in the world divers go. You'd end up with almost 99% N as it worked and the O2 and CO2 went their respective ways. I'm sure you'd pass out before that point, but it'd be the end result.

 

[letmeseethedeath]

I think it's a good new thing to knoww ❤i wanna give it a try

 

[pane]

Yeah I think it would be fairly straightforward to build something like that. Maybe a little trial and error to get the design optimized but the parts and a spare weekend and it should be possible.

Probably slightly more expensive than other methods, but for a painless and quick way to go it might be hard to beat. I'm seriously considering it as an option for my CTB.

One big advantage is you wouldn't need any inert gasses or other things, just the parts and the CO2 scrubber material which is fairly easy to get anywhere in the world divers go. You'd end up with almost 99% N as it worked and the O2 and CO2 went their respective ways. I'm sure you'd pass out before that point, but it'd be the end result.

If you do this PLEASE post an update in this thread about your results. I'm not mechanically inclined in regards to assembling/repairing things and I'm really interested in how it turns out.

 

[ArtsyDrawer]

Holy crap, we got math in here!

@RM5998 I have no idea what you just said.
If I get you right, you're saying this could be done with one long pipe lined with scrubber and a small bag used as "counterlung"?

@DreamCatcher yeah, that's the part I'm stumped on. The Exit rebreather doesn't seem to use any electronics which has the allure for me. I can't stand buzzing sounds. I might legitimately fall into a seizure. I might also fall asleep faster, though.

My ORIGINAL original thought was a K.I.S.S approach to it: rent a cabin for a week, come in with two duffle bags (one for scrubber, one for duct tape), seal every nook and cranny, spread scrubber on the floor, go to sleep.

The problem with that, of course, that at the end of the week there would be one pissed off landlord followed by a small group of cops who will then freak out for a few minutes, and then scrubber gets pulled out of shelves because "cult suicide", or something. The landlord would then be hurt because cops think he killed me in the most ass backwards way known so far.

Might start experimenting with this as it seems more practical.

 

[RM5998]

@RM5998 I have no idea what you just said.
If I get you right, you're saying this could be done with one long pipe lined with scrubber and a small bag used as "counterlung"?

No, because the heat from the CO2 absorption would probably melt the bag. NaOH catalyzes the reaction, so there's a large amount of heat.

 

[DreamCatcher]

No, because the heat from the CO2 absorption would probably melt the bag. NaOH catalyzes the reaction, so there's a large amount of heat.

I was thinking you'd need maybe a tote box or something similar for the scrubber, the an air hose in from your breathing and an air hose back out into the main loop. Temperatures in the test (link below) seems to be about 40F above ambient which isn't too bad. It probably wouldn't melt anything or start a fire at that level, but I would suggest monitoring the first few tests.

I suppose heat isn't a problem at all for divers as the water readily absorbs any extra. I'm not quite sure how exothermic it is in actuality though on land, that's another thing that'll need testing.

So a mask of some kinds or breather > hose to scrubber > scrubber tote (Side varies but larger and more surface area would remove CO2 faster > hose to small blower > hose back to breather mask. You might be able to get away without electronics or fans if you had a one way check valve in one or more of the hoses. But you'd have to make sure the loop was pretty efficient so it wouldn't take a lot force to breathe. Once everything was sealed up and pressure tested it would be good to go. You'd only need a few psi to make sure nothing leaked, a bicycle pump could probably work for that.

If all works well your breath would circulate into the scrubber, then back around so you could inhale it again with just a little less O2 each pass. As long as you didn't have leaks and the CO2 scrubber pulled enough out it should be painless and comfortable.

Probably could use one of those CPAP masks, a dozen feet of hose, a tote for holding the scrubber with a filter for the air to pass through that the scrubber can be placed on, and an optional small blower motor in there somewhere.

Interesting video on the heat generated:

A Look Inside Rebreather Scrubber Canisters, Part 1 | John Clarke Online

johnclarkeonline.com

 

[pane]

Reading over the latest comments involving fans, tote boxes and blower motors it sounds like the discussion is getting more involving and as I said I'm not mechanically inclined so perhaps I'm missing something. Here are images from the article Dreamsofdestruction posted showing what the early version of the Debreather looked like. It appears to be a relatively simple and straightforward device. I was hoping one or more of you looking into this would be able to replicate it:

 

[dreamsofdestruction]

No, because the heat from the CO2 absorption would probably melt the bag. NaOH catalyzes the reaction, so there's a large amount of heat.

The exit guys would have somehow accounted for that if it was really a problem though?

 

[RM5998]

The exit guys would have somehow accounted for that if it was really a problem though?

I was talking about a case where one is trying to put the soda lime in the counterlung to minimize parts instead of using a factory made scrubber. Even a factory-made scrubber is meant to work underwater, and water has a pretty high specific heat capacity (amount of energy absorbed by 1g to change temperature by 1 K).

 

[dreamsofdestruction]

I was talking about a case where one is trying to put the soda lime in the counterlung to minimize parts

Oh right, sorry, my mistake.

 

[Longman]

Even a factory-made scrubber is meant to work underwater,

Soda lime is also used as a CO2 scrubber in anesthetic machines, and soda lime canister is not submerged in water or other cooling liquid. Maybe air is cooled before going into scrubber, but that would not stop melting of the canister - so melting seems an exaggregation.

YouTube

Дивіться відео, слухайте улюблену музику, завантажуйте оригінальний вміст і діліться всім цим із друзями, рідними й цілим світом на YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Anesthesia Gas Machine- Carbon dioxide absorption

These are lecture notes on the anesthesia gas machine and related topics such as vaporization. Anesthesia equipment is described in a manner useful to nurse anesthetists (CRNAs) or physicians in anesthesiology.

healthprofessions.udmercy.edu

 

[RM5998]

Soda lime is also used as a CO2 scrubber in anesthetic machines, and soda lime canister is not submerged in water or other cooling liquid. Maybe air is cooled before going into scrubber, but that would not stop melting of the canister - so melting seems an exaggregation.

YouTube

Дивіться відео, слухайте улюблену музику, завантажуйте оригінальний вміст і діліться всім цим із друзями, рідними й цілим світом на YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Anesthesia Gas Machine- Carbon dioxide absorption

These are lecture notes on the anesthesia gas machine and related topics such as vaporization. Anesthesia equipment is described in a manner useful to nurse anesthetists (CRNAs) or physicians in anesthesiology.

healthprofessions.udmercy.edu

Again, I was referring to the case where you essentially have a plastic bag containing soda lime, serving both as counterlung and scrubber. I'm thinking about the boundaries of simplification and component reduction.

 

[DreamCatcher]

Reading over the latest comments involving fans, tote boxes and blower motors it sounds like the discussion is getting more involving and as I said I'm not mechanically inclined so perhaps I'm missing something. Here are images from the article Dreamsofdestruction posted showing what the early version of the Debreather looked like. It appears to be a relatively simple and straightforward device. I was hoping one or more of you looking into this would be able to replicate it:
View attachment 14007View attachment 14008

Looks quite a bit simpler than I thought if that's a working prototype. Doesn't appear to be any heat issues with the scrubber if they can go with that design, plus no motors or fans, it's just a simple device to breathe into a bag then inhale back from the bag with the soda lime or other CO2 absorbent in between. Most dive rebreathers include a heater as well, so that leads me to believe that heat won't be an issue at all.

My design was a full circular loop with check valves, this is just a short back and forth path.

I think anyone could pretty easily just make something like that. Just need to get a few specific parts and the CO2 scrubber and make sure there aren't any leaks and the mask doesn't fall off if you lose consciousness.

Mask > Hose > Scrubber canister (Pre made diving canister like one above should work fine) > Hose > Counterlung bag (~6 liters of size for the average adult)

Parts list
1x CO2 scrubber diving canister should be around ~$75. The link above is for two for $150, but I'm sure there are many other sources with some searching.
1x full face cpap mask ~$80 (cpap dot com)
2x 6' cpap hose ~$20 (cpap dot com)
1x 6 liter hydration bladder ~$30 (Scamazon)

Plus a roll or two of self vulcanizing silicone tape for connections maybe? Or maybe just electrical tape if you can get the good stuff like super 33 and just use a lot. It's vital that nothing leaks though at all, even the smallest leak will cause this to fail and you'll burn up the CO2 absorbent during the attempt.

Roughly $200 for the whole shebang, and cpap mask shouldn't fall off when you fall asleep because that's what it's made for.

I'd expect if there weren't any leaks you'd have a successful setup off the shelf with that. Still a little higher than a lot of people can afford but it's a safe and comfortable start.

Troubleshooting issues:
Hard to breathe in or out fully > Counterlung too small (Also make sure that between your lungs and counterlung that one starts empty and one starts full)
Don't pass out even after a significant period of time (15 minutes) > air leak, check for leaks again (soapy water on connections to look for bubbles while you're wearing it and exhaling to put pressure on the system)
Breathing starts to feel like you're out of air, burning feeling in lungs > CO2 absorbent has run out, probably because of an air leak. You should have a few hours on each CO2 canister, so that should be enough for a few attempts as long as you know to stop and check for leaks between if it's not working.

They have a fancy O2 sensor in the line to detect leaks, but unless you have money to burn I'd consider that optional. For a multi use unit that would be nice, but for a single use it'll be fine.

If it works properly, you should be able to breathe comfortably until you pass out. There should be no pain or discomfort.

 

[pane]

DreamCatcher I point out that the Debreather I posted pics of is an very early version from around 15 years ago although the article I keep referring to does say that 8 people successfully killed themselves with it. A ninth person tried and failed because he had some sort of stomach condition that caused reflexive vomiting if I recall correctly.

The 2019 Debreather that's hopefully supposed to become available soon is more elaborate and looks like this:

 

[DreamCatcher]

DreamCatcher I point out that the Debreather I posted pics of is an very early version from around 15 years ago although the article I keep referring to does say that 8 people successfully killed themselves with it. A ninth person tried and failed because he had some sort of stomach condition that caused reflexive vomiting if I recall correctly.

The 2019 Debreather that's hopefully supposed to become available soon is more elaborate and looks like this:

View attachment 14052

Yeah looks like the same thing they just improved the packaging and setup to make it even simpler for mass production. The mechanics are probably exactly the same as the other model.

Also timing looks really nice, you should pass out in under 15 minutes on any of these designs, and more than likely will be unrecoverable 15 minutes later.

I'm not sure how they are going to advertise it, maybe
"30 minute total time makes it handy for lunch breaks or those on the go"

Well if it gets more people peace in a legal way I'm all for it.

 

[Joannf]

I've read some days ago about this magnificent idea of a "Debreather".
From what I gather, it's basically a scuba mask that transports your air into a co2 scrubber and into a sealed bag. You then breathe the air from that bag, minus the co2 you exhale, meaning nitrogen and oxygen. You then exhale more and more nitrogen while your oxygen levels drop and after about 30 minutes you're done.
That's the first prototype, something you can easily build at home. Alternatively, you can make your own mask. At least I'm hoping a homemade mask would work - I have some serious quality duct tape on a level I've never seen before.
Sounds great in theory.
I've looked through google and saw some aquarium co2 scrubbers, mainly "soda lime". It's also used in medical procedures where co2 is not wanted.
I'll need to dig through my history a little, but you can find this stuff readily available on Amazon. The second debreather prototype shows a scuba mask connected to three pipes and mentions some sort of loop breathing thing.
The first debreather goes through one container of soda lime, while the second goes through three.
The second debreather also looks a bit more menacing.
So my point here is this - if instead of this "loop breathing" thing I buy three containers of soda lime, separate them a bit by a length of hose (closest translation) and connect that to a bag, would it not be the same?

EDIT: A rebreather is an actual scuba mask! The whole gimmick of the debreather is that it's actually based on the rebreather mask's already built-in mechanism!
One could build this thing at home!
Sure, it's not cheap, but you can easily build this thing at home!
An example of a rebreather: https://www.hollisrebreathers.com/product/mod-1/
From what I gather, you just connect two pipes into a bag, one is for inhaling only, one is for exhaling only. The mask does all the work!

Yeah, N - that's an okay method, one of the better ctb ones for sure.
I can serenely endorse it.
But I know a gas that replaces oxygen at the hemoglobin level, within seconds, and so that became my choice ;)

 

[pane]

Yeah, N - that's an okay method, one of the better ctb ones for sure.
I can serenely endorse it.
But I know a gas that replaces oxygen at the hemoglobin level, within seconds, and so that became my choice ;)

Joannf could you please divulge what that gas is and how to administer it to oneself? Are you referring to producing carbon monoxide by mixing formic acid and sulfuric acid?

 

[DreamCatcher]

Joannf could you please divulge what that gas is and how to administer it to oneself? You can PM me if you'd prefer not to state it openly.

CO? That seems to be the most common.

It has the advantage of being quick and relatively painless at high concentrations and lots of "accidental" ways to die from it. But if you do it wrong it'll just give you headaches and nausea with possibly permanent damage and another day to look forward to.

Anyone doing a CO method should have a proper CO meter so they know it'll be fatal. Those are pricey (~$300+) but I wouldn't try that method without it.

 

[Joannf]

Joannf could you please divulge what that gas is and how to administer it to oneself? Are you referring to producing carbon monoxide by mixing formic acid and sulfuric acid?

Absolutely ;)

CO? That seems to be the most common.

It has the advantage of being quick and relatively painless at high concentrations and lots of "accidental" ways to die from it. But if you do it wrong it'll just give you headaches and nausea with possibly permanent damage and another day to look forward to.

Anyone doing a CO method should have a proper CO meter so they know it'll be fatal. Those are pricey (~$300+) but I wouldn't try that method without it.

Can you explain to me why CO, which follows the same biological mechanism as N - painless asphyxiation - but on a more effective, cellular/molecular level, should create symptoms and damages N would not create ? It's like assuming that drowning in water would be more comfortable than breathing N...
Thank you ;)

 

[GeorgeJL]

DreamCatcher I point out that the Debreather I posted pics of is an very early version from around 15 years ago although the article I keep referring to does say that 8 people successfully killed themselves with it. A ninth person tried and failed because he had some sort of stomach condition that caused reflexive vomiting if I recall correctly.

The 2019 Debreather that's hopefully supposed to become available soon is more elaborate and looks like this:

View attachment 14052

Wow so they are actually going to sell this suicide device? Holy shit. It will just get banned right away though, I think they shouldn't do this perhaps. But perhaps the goal is to shock the world so that more people will find out even though they know it will be made illegal soon after.

 

[DreamCatcher]

Absolutely ;)


Can you explain to me why CO, which follows the same biological mechanism as N - painless asphyxiation - but on a more effective, cellular/molecular level, should create symptoms and damages N would not create ? It's like assuming that drowning in water would be more comfortable than breathing N...
Thank you ;)

CO is also a reasonable method if you do it properly. While the end result of death by low oxygen is the same in both cases, it isn't going to be exactly the same road getting there.

Assuming you can enter a space where the CO concentration is high enough to knock you out in a few minutes 10,000ppm+ you probably won't notice the worst symptoms but CO is notoriously difficult to get the concentrations correct without a meter whereas a debreather is far simpler by comparison. Someone just toying around with CO without a GOOD CO meter (Not one of those 999 jobbers, that's below the fatal level) likely will have issues, and may end up with permanent damage if they don't do it correctly. CO can also hurt others that enter the space after you've started, the debreather can't and is safe to use around other people and animals.

The reason they are mass producing a debreather is because it's easy and simple and if it's designed properly it has low risks of failing or permanent injury.

It's a method, and there are good and bad points. I think I'd prefer a CO method if I wanted it to look like an accident, but something like the debreather sounds more comfortable and safer overall.

 

[Joannf]

CO is also a reasonable method if you do it properly. While the end result of death by low oxygen is the same in both cases, it isn't going to be exactly the same road getting there.

Assuming you can enter a space where the CO concentration is high enough to knock you out in a few minutes 10,000ppm+ you probably won't notice the worst symptoms but CO is notoriously difficult to get the concentrations correct without a meter whereas a debreather is far simpler by comparison. Someone just toying around with CO without a GOOD CO meter (Not one of those 999 jobbers, that's below the fatal level) likely will have issues, and may end up with permanent damage if they don't do it correctly. CO can also hurt others that enter the space after you've started, the debreather can't and is safe to use around other people and animals.

The reason they are mass producing a debreather is because it's easy and simple and if it's designed properly it has low risks of failing or permanent injury.

It's a method, and there are good and bad points. I think I'd prefer a CO method if I wanted it to look like an accident, but something like the debreather sounds more comfortable and safer overall.

As to Quality Of Death, people keep cloaking the fact in language that both CO and N cause hypoxia, which is always exactly the same thing.
People keep associating CO with nausea while it is not causing any - hypoxia sometimes causes nausea, it is a bodily reaction to a lack of oxygen... one must avoid a long period of underexposure, that's the correct conclusion.

The problem is the people, they are consumers and largely not ingenious - they muck things up, they do sloppy work, they don't think for themselves. So some "activists" take years to come up with a prefabricated solution like the debreather, and it's still not working reliably, nor is it actually available as far as I can see - then, I would have to order nitrogen, while I can get the acids for the CO at my local drogaria.

I prefer CO to N because I need not take care to get rid of CO2, this problem doesn't exist. I am not overchallenged with making outsiders aware of residual-dangers, and it seems neither have others. This is no big problem in reality, either.
"Hey - can you open doors and windows before you breathe the gases that might still be in here ? Thank you."

Professional execution of gas inhalation will in all cases work, and CO is without the least doubt the more effective gas - but the average human has a problem with handling invisible stuff and understanding chemical reactions, even more with actually making them happen.
Popping a pill is something most can master... you can only explain things to people, but you cannot make them more clever.