Having kids in the absence of a peaceful exit

[Exiled spirit]

I don't understand how people justify having kids in a world where you basically have to continue your life no matter how bad it becomes or result to unreliable and unpeaceful suicide methods that can fail, leaving you in a much worse position. I can't wrap my head around that level of cruelty, especially when thinking about bed-bound individuals who don't even have the option of trying to end their lives and are forced to suffer for years until they die naturally.

 

[azsxls]

I don't understand how people justify having kids in a world where you basically have to continue your life no matter how bad it becomes or result to unreliable and unpeaceful suicide methods that can fail, leaving you in a much worse position. I can't wrap my head around that level of cruelty, especially when thinking about bed-bound individuals who don't even have the option of trying to end their lives and are forced to suffer for years until they die naturally.

id like to believe its because the majority of humans are not miserable/suicidal?

 

[Exiled spirit]

id like to believe its because the majority of humans are not miserable/suicidal?

Suicide is much more common than people think. It's one of the leading causes of death (and of course suicide attempts are much higher). But even if you're not suicidal, you know that there's no peaceful exit, not for you or your child. And you also know you have to continue living or face the horrors of unreliable and unpeaceful suicide methods, and so does your kid.

 

[azsxls]

Suicide is much more common than people think. It's one of the leading causes of death (and of course suicide attempts are much higher). But even if you're not suicidal, you know that there's no peaceful exit, not for you or your child. And you also know you have to continue living or face the horrors of unreliable and unpeaceful suicide methods.

its about 1.1% and it tends to be influenced quite a bit by bad childhoods/poor upbringing/other bad experiences and so if you can give a child a loving family and bring them up well its think the odds are significantly in the favour of the child not ending up suicidal because the world has failed them etc, furthermore most people do not wish they did not exist and your ignoring the fact that life contains positive experiences can outweigh suffering for many individuals. however i can understand why you would might think parents who cannot give a child a proper life etc should perhaps not have children but i must emphasise that is not the majority and i dont think it should not extend past those types of families

 

[Exiled spirit]

its about 1.1% and it tends to be influenced quite a bit by bad childhoods/poor upbringing/other bad experiences and so if you can give a child a loving family and bring them up well its think the odds are significantly in the favour of the child not ending up suicidal because the world has failed them etc

Suicide as I mentioned early is one of the leading causes of death. And the fact that most people don't do it doesn't necessarily imply that most people are happy with their lives. For instance, the majority of Muslims and Christians (about 4 billion people/half the human population) think suicide is a sin that leads you to hell where you suffer without end, so they may continue living even if they hate their lives to avoid eternal torture. You can add other reasons too.

But the point I want to emphasize is that bringing a kid into that world imply that this kid will "have" to try to live and love his life, or he will face the horrors of attempting suicide via violent, unreliable, or/and unpeaceful methods. And in some cases, he may not be able to even result to that, and he will have to live until he dies naturally.

 

[FuneralCry]

I understand, it truly is such terrible extreme cruelty how this existence gets imposed causing all this terrible torture and suffering as a result, it's just so horrific how humans do all they can to force others to suffer for as long as possible in this existence that never should had been imposed.

To me denying the option to cease existing peacefully is such a terrible crime that causes way more suffering and torture, it's such extreme cruelty how the suffering and torture of existing is seen as to force and prolong no matter what even know this existence was imposed in the first place and no matter what it should never be. This existence truly is a mistake to me and I'll always see it as an abomination to suffer in this torturous, harmful existence that only ever causes endless amounts of cruelty and torture with no limit as to how much agony one can feel, to me existing will always feel like the most terrible, undeserved punishment, all that imposing this existence ever does is cause way more torture there was never a need for at all.

 

[azsxls]

Suicide as I mentioned early is one of the leading causes of death. And the fact that most people don't do it doesn't necessarily imply that most people are happy with their lives. For instance, the majority of Muslims and Christians (about 4 billion people/half the human population) think suicide is a sin that leads you to hell where you suffer without end, so they may continue living even if they hate their lives to avoid eternal torture. You can add other reasons too.

But the point I want to emphasize is that bringing a kid into that world imply that this kid will "have" to try to live and love his life, or he will face the horrors of attempting suicide via violent, unreliable, or/and unpeaceful methods. And in some cases, he may not be able to even result to that, and he will have to live until he dies naturally.

i get what you mean but i think you're treating the worst cases like they define the whole idea of having kids

most people don't see existence as something inherently cruel because life isn't just suffering it also has meaning relationships goals curiosity enjoyment all of that mixed in for a lot of people that balance is enough to make life worth continuing even with the difficult parts

and suicide stats don't really support the idea that most people are silently rejecting life it's around 1% of global deaths even if attempts are higher most people still don't reach that point and plenty of people report being okay with being alive you can explain some of the "staying alive despite misery" thing through external pressures like belief systems or responsibility but that still doesn't describe most people's overall experience

there's also a difference between "life can become unbearable in some cases" and "life is therefore a bad thing to start" most people take risks like illness suffering or loss as part of being human not something that completely cancels out existence

the point about no guaranteed peaceful exit is real in the sense that severe suffering and loss of freedom/autonomy are serious problems but that doesn't automatically turn every possible life into something morally unjustifiable people aren't only weighing worst case scenarios when they make that decision like you are when you assume the worst outcomes are the default outcome

 

[Exiled spirit]

i get what you mean but i think you're treating the worst cases like they define the whole idea of having kids

most people don't see existence as something inherently cruel because life isn't just suffering it also has meaning relationships goals curiosity enjoyment all of that mixed in for a lot of people that balance is enough to make life worth continuing even with the difficult parts

and suicide stats don't really support the idea that most people are silently rejecting life it's around 1% of global deaths even if attempts are higher most people still don't reach that point and plenty of people report being okay with being alive you can explain some of the "staying alive despite misery" thing through external pressures like belief systems or responsibility but that still doesn't describe most people's overall experience

there's also a difference between "life can become unbearable in some cases" and "life is therefore a bad thing to start" most people take risks like illness suffering or loss as part of being human not something that completely cancels out existence

the point about no guaranteed peaceful exit is real in the sense that severe suffering and loss of freedom/autonomy are serious problems but that doesn't automatically turn every possible life into something morally unjustifiable people aren't only weighing worst case scenarios when they make that decision like you are when you assume the worst outcomes are the default outcome

We have reasons to doubt official suicide stats. For example, in some Islamic countries when a person commit suicide, their family claims otherwise in order to be able to make a proper funeral for him, because in Islam you're not supposed to make a proper funeral for a person who killed himself. And in that case, this death won't be recorded as suicide in any official document. Moreover, in many countries, if a person says that he's thinking about suicide, or even that he hates his life he would be considered by almost everyone as weak, ungrateful, not a true believer, and mentally ill. Those 4 descriptions are largely viewed as insults in those countries. And because no one likes to be insulted, a lot of people would keep their true feelings hidden.

But that point aside, it's still really cruel to put a child in a world where he "have" to live until he dies naturally or kill himself in horrible and unpeaceful ways when we can simply abstain from procreation.

 

[azsxls]

We have reasons to doubt official suicide stats. For example, in some Islamic countries when a person commit suicide, their family claims otherwise in order to be able to make a proper funeral for him, because in Islam you're not supposed to make a proper funeral for a person who killed himself. And in that case, this death won't be recorded as suicide in any official document. Moreover, in many countries, if a person says that he's thinking about suicide, or even that he hates his life he would be considered by almost everyone as weak, ungrateful, not a true believer, and mentally ill. Those 4 descriptions are largely viewed as insults in those countries. And because no one likes to be insulted, a lot of people would keep their true feelings hidden.

But that point aside, it's still really cruel to put a child in a world where he "have" to live until he dies naturally or kill himself in horrible and unpeaceful ways when we can simply abstain from procreation.

sure suicide is probably underreported in some places because of religion stigma etc but there's no way the variation is significant enough that it suddenly turns suicide from a relatively small percentage of deaths into something most people are experiencing or thinking about constantly

that still doesn't really prove that most people secretly hate being alive or wish they were never born

most people still form relationships make plans have goals care about their future and continue living for reasons beyond just fear or social pressure and i think reducing all of that down to "people are trapped" is way too simplistic

and i still don't think the conclusion follows that because suffering can become extreme therefore having children is inherently cruel by default because you're basically only evaluating existence through the lens of its worst possible outcomes

by that logic almost any risk in life would make something immoral if there's even a chance of suffering attached to it

and the whole "they either have to live or die horribly" framing feels way too black and white to describe most people's actual experience of life perhaps it reflects your own experiences but thats not something you should project onto the rest of humanity

 

[Exiled spirit]

most people still form relationships make plans have goals care about their future and continue living for reasons beyond just fear or social pressure and i think reducing all of that down to "people are trapped" is way too simplistic

That doesn't solve the problem. If I have a kid who became paralyzed and hated his life and he ask me: "why did you bring me into this dangerous and unfair world?"

what am I supposed to say to him then?
Should I say: "you represent a small percentage of people, so learn to love life or shut up and suffer quietly." ?
This is horrible and cruel and doesn't solve his predicament.
The only compassionate thing is to lean on the side of caution and don't gamble with his life in the first place.

by that logic almost any risk in life would make something immoral if there's even a chance of suffering attached to it

We can't avoid taking risks in life. but that doesn't mean we should lack any level of empathy and impose risks on others when we don't have to.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I agree with you. I just think would- be parents have a more rose tinted view of life. That- even if there are problems, their child will make it through ok. Even that their love will be enough to help them through. I think it's naive- personally but then- that's my own pessimistic viewpoint.

What baffles me more is when people who are depressed or have been suicidal themselves procreate. Don't they worry their child may end up the same? I suppose they still find enough value in life. Worse though- I think a lot of people think having children will bring more value to their own lives. Truthfully- that disturbs me. Because- this is a whole living being we are talking about. One capable of feeling immense suffering if things go wrong.

Again though- I think parents have this idea that they made it through so- so will their children. Plus- they'll maybe do things differently to their own parents to prevent the things that hurt them.

It still doesn't make sense to me though. Even with a parent that does everything right- that child could still be struck down by an illness, an accident or attack from another person. There's so many ways we are vulnerable in this life.

And- as you point out- no matter how bad it gets- we're forced to stay here. The 'best' we can hope for is if things are SO horrifically bad that it's recognised medically. Then- we might get the chance/ dignity to leave early. But then- we will have already gone through a recognised terrible ordeal to 'win' that approval to leave. And even then- some will campaign against it. You get parents taking their children to prevent them from getting assisted suicide in court.

 

[Yknot]

I am a father of three and I have had my dark moments when I was younger and more recently when my oldest son ctb'd. He never blamed us for being alive. We don't blame him for ending it. The other two boys are happy to be alive, we talk about death a lot these days. I can only agree that there should be a peacefull way out for those who genuinely dont want to live. But blaming people for having kids is not right.

 

[medinjured521]

I am a father of three and I have had my dark moments when I was younger and more recently when my oldest son ctb'd. He never blamed us for being alive. We don't blame him for ending it. The other two boys are happy to be alive, we talk about death a lot these days. I can only agree that there should be a peacefull way out for those who genuinely dont want to live. But blaming people for having kids is not right.

It's cruel people are forced to take their own lives when they are already suffering beyond belief, and then society makes them suffer more in their final moments. A peaceful death should be a human right.