god genuinely doesn’t fucking exist

[overthrone]

im so sick of everyone explaining away everything bad that happens to me with "it's god's plan". Okay? Fuck god then. Why does that son of a bitch put me through so much shit when I haven't done anything to him? Does he do it because he thinks it's funny? Because he's bored? Cut the bullshit. He's not real. I get that it's much more comforting to say that things happen because of some magical dude in the sky than to face facts that life just sucks, but wake up.

 

[GabrielMen]

The world is full of people with no brain capacity to think logically, therefore making the world more miserable for us

 

[Hollowman]

The next time someone says "gods plan" or whatever. Ask em what the plan was when all those religious leaders raped/abused innocent children.

 

[aufrechtm7]

The next time someone says "gods plan" or whatever. Ask em what the plan was when all those religious leaders raped/abused innocent children.

within pretty much all major religious frameworks this isnt the own you think it is unfortunately

 

[LastNite]

2k Religions mine must be the correct one!

 

[MephiticShadow]

Well duh. I'll never understand adults who cling to fairy tales. We stop believing in Santa claus and the Easter bunny. No difference

This guy. Sums it up better than anyone I've ever come across

 

[violetforever]

this just reminded me how my moms idea of comforting me as a child was just telling me to pray bc god will listen or whatever. i started crying even harder one time when she told me that. even as a child it frustrated me that my mom replaced actual parenting with pushing religion onto me. i guess thats easier than actually doing ur part as a mother to understand and be there for ur daughter. excluding religion, my mom is just a horrible parent anyway. religion is a way to justify it. ill never believe in it. ive tried since my family forces it but it always felt so fake and limiting.

 

[overthrone]

within pretty much all major religious frameworks this isnt the own you think it is unfortunately

A ton of religious leaders from multiple different religions have been exposed for sexually abusing children, I don't really get what you mean.

 

[aufrechtm7]

A ton of religious leaders from multiple different religions have been exposed for sexually abusing children, I don't really get what you mean.

what im saying is that religious people dont pretend that bad things dont exist, these problems are acknowledged and explained as being a consequence of free will.

anything bad happening aside from that can either be a "spiritual test" from god, or from evil that just exists naturally because it just does.

 

[redsendtend]

I try label myself as Christian, but I always think about Jesus' speech here: "the love in the world will grow cold in the last days but whoever perserveres to the end will be saved." I feel really annoyed because what if I give up at the last hurdle? and the last test is always the hardest right?... that's what's primarily preventing me from ctb.

 

[SpacingOut]

I'm religious for context, and even I never got the whole "it's God's plan" thing, because it makes no sense to me. God, at least to me, doesn't have a fucking plan for any of us. The entire point of religion is to believe in something and do good by that. Why would he plan for people to do otherwise? I get temptations and explaining them away as tests of your moral strength and all, but when it comes to other people hurting you and such, why in the world would any god out there intend for that to happen...?

I think insane idiots who say that shit genuinely lost the plot of what religion is and how to follow it. Not to mention the fact it doesn't help anyone EVER to say that it was the plan of some deity for bad things to happen to good people. Also, might I add, in terms of Christianity, God intended for people to run the earth on their own. God intended to give people free will, which means that everything someone does is because of their own decision and not someone controlling them like a puppet.
Religion is never an excuse or reason for doing something horrible. Neither is it an excuse for something horrible happening to you, or you having to go through something shitty.
I hate to go on a religious rant, but people often quote verses like Jeremiah 29:11 to say that God intended some sort of life plan for all of us, but in the context of the entire passage, that is not at all what is said. God is a symbol, not a literal being, at least in my opinion. Might be contradictory, since I'm a believer, but then again, I'm quite un-orthodox.

Religion as a whole should be about community, solidarity and doing good, spreading love and holding people who wronged you accountable. No one should be forced to forgive and forget or ignore their pain because of a supposed pre-established destiny provided for them.
To add, I, as a religious person, fucking despise when people hurt others and then preach forgiveness and how "God will judge me". Like, no. WE will judge you. You can't be an asshole and use religion as some sort of shield.

 

[aufrechtm7]

I'm religious for context, and even I never got the whole "it's God's plan" thing, because it makes no sense to me. God, at least to me, doesn't have a fucking plan for any of us. The entire point of religion is to believe in something and do good by that. Why would he plan for people to do otherwise? I get temptations and explaining them away as tests of your moral strength and all, but when it comes to other people hurting you and such, why in the world would any god out there intend for that to happen...?

I think insane idiots who say that shit genuinely lost the plot of what religion is and how to follow it. Not to mention the fact it doesn't help anyone EVER to say that it was the plan of some deity for bad things to happen to good people. Also, might I add, in terms of Christianity, God intended for people to run the earth on their own. God intended to give people free will, which means that everything someone does is because of their own decision and not someone controlling them like a puppet.
Religion is never an excuse or reason for doing something horrible. Neither is it an excuse for something horrible happening to you, or you having to go through something shitty.
I hate to go on a religious rant, but people often quote verses like Jeremiah 29:11 to say that God intended some sort of life plan for all of us, but in the context of the entire passage, that is not at all what is said. God is a symbol, not a literal being, at least in my opinion. Might be contradictory, since I'm a believer, but then again, I'm quite un-orthodox.

Religion as a whole should be about community, solidarity and doing good, spreading love and holding people who wronged you accountable. No one should be forced to forgive and forget or ignore their pain because of a supposed pre-established destiny provided for them.
To add, I, as a religious person, fucking despise when people hurt others and then preach forgiveness and how "God will judge me". Like, no. WE will judge you. You can't be an asshole and use religion as some sort of shield.

i actually agree with you for the most part, but what youre saying is in direct opposition with every major Abrahamic religion and youd genuinely be considered a heretic for saying such things

 

[SpacingOut]

i actually agree with you, but what youre saying is in direct opposition with every major Abrahamic religion and youd genuinely be considered a heretic for saying such things

I mean, people can call me that if they want to, but Jesus was also considered heretic by a lot during his time, so it's not disheartening lol
Overall, I don't see how I'm in "direct opposition", though. Maybe in a strict, doctrinal sense, but I'm still Christian and believe in God, just not that he's a literal being that's watching us. Religion is a complicated thing, so, yeah, some people can call me heretic, some will probably wholeheartedly agree with what I said. Even popes and priests all have different interpretations of The Bible and they spent countless days studying the scriptures.

 

[itsgone2]

I'm religious but also confused and frustrated. The world doesn't make sense to me right now. So much conflict, even aside from the wars.

There's no good answer for any of the bad that happens. I don't fault those who attempt to explain. Perhaps we will all know one day. Or perhaps there is nothing and we won't even get to realize it.

lots of dark stuff on this forum but also a lot of support. Lots of people trying to support one another. I'd ask those who made some insults about those who believe to just consider it for a while. I've made so many cutting remarks in my life. Such arrogance. The guilt of my past is overwhelming, including every one of those remarks. Just my two cents. We're all suffering.

 

[aufrechtm7]

I mean, people can call me that if they want to, but Jesus was also considered heretic by a lot during his time, so it's not disheartening lol
Overall, I don't see how I'm in "direct opposition", though. Maybe in a strict, doctrinal sense, but I'm still Christian and believe in God, just not that he's a literal being that's watching us. Religion is a complicated thing, so, yeah, some people can call me heretic, some will probably wholeheartedly agree with what I said. Even popes and priests all have different interpretations of The Bible and they spent countless days studying the scriptures.

many of the things youre saying go against what is repeatedly stated in the bible, quran, and the tanakh. like you probably couldnt go into a Church/Mosque/Synagogue and say these things because itd be considered disrespectful or disruptive

just a brief rundown, but all affirm that God/Allah has a plan for us, and that we live in an evil world where unfair things can happen. its because of free will that allows evil people to exist because they can exercise the ability to do things that are immoral.

for example in the bible, Job didnt even do anything wrong and his life was basically ruined all because Satan wanted to challenge him and God said deal.

Christians who dont believe in the concept of the trinity are considered heretics due to the relationship between God/Jesus and the holy spirit, but all 3 affirm that he is a literal omnipotent being. That humans will never have the ability to understand his will, and that only his judgment matters, etc.

i dont really mind religion for the most part but id rather just have a personal relationship with God because major religion as a whole can just be too problematic.

 

[SpacingOut]

I'm religious but also confused and frustrated. The world doesn't make sense to me right now. So much conflict, even aside from the wars.

There's no good answer for any of the bad that happens. I don't fault those who attempt to explain. Perhaps we will all know one day. Or perhaps there is nothing and we won't even get to realize it.

lots of dark stuff on this forum but also a lot of support. Lots of people trying to support one another. I'd ask those who made some insults about those who believe to just consider it for a while. I've made so many cutting remarks in my life. Such arrogance. The guilt of my past is overwhelming, including every one of those remarks. Just my two cents. We're all suffering.

Beautifully said. I'd only add that there should always be awareness in what you say to others, even when it comes to explaining horrible happenings. Sometimes, brushing things off in such a way, even if it comforts you, will ultimately hurt the other person. In that case, I can't fault someone for being frustrated when they're told something that hurts them over and over again.
Connection is a beautiful thing, so finding others to vent to about frustrations can be just as important as finding those who will sit with you in calm.
I say that to some, words can be just that. Only words. We say a lot of things day to day that we end up regretting, but we all make mistakes, we can never know the answer to every question and the perfect response in every interaction.

I knew a classmate a while ago, who kind of helped me realize all of us are anxious and maybe too aware of what we say and what we do. I won't go into detail, but he was one of the kindest people I've ever met and once shared that he felt as though everything he says and does is always being watched and judged. I can't help but think that we fault ourselves too much for things like that. Words can hurt, but words can heal too.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't be so harsh on yourself over things said in a heartbeat, before your brain caught up to your words.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

If any god exists, either they are imperfect in some way, or they are so much above our concept of a god that we are less than atoms to them.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil is one way to address a god in a rational way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_noncognitivism talks about a god being meaningless to lesser beings such as us.

 

[aufrechtm7]

If any god exists, either they are imperfect in some way, or they are so much above our concept of a god that we are less than atoms to them.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil is one way to address a god in a rational way.

these are rational arguments, but theyre flawed since they dont actually interact with theistic framework in a genuine sense

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

these are rational arguments, but theyre flawed since they dont actually interact with theistic framework in a genuine sense

What does genuine mean in this context?

 

[aufrechtm7]

What does genuine mean in this context?

when atheists debate religious people they tend to adopt religious mindsets in order to make critiques on religion because if you present your arguments on the assumption that God doesnt exist, they tend to fall apart pretty quickly

 

[SpacingOut]

many of the things youre saying go against what is repeatedly stated in the bible, quran, and the tanakh. like you probably couldnt go into a Church/Mosque/Synagogue and say these things because itd be considered disrespectful or disruptive

just a brief rundown, but all affirm that God/Allah has a plan for us, and that we live in an evil world where unfair things can happen. its because of free will that allows evil people to exist because they can exercise the ability to do things that are immoral.

for example in the bible, Job didnt even do anything wrong and his life was basically ruined all because Satan wanted to challenge him and God said deal.

Christians who dont believe in the concept of the trinity are considered heretics due to the relationship between God/Jesus and the holy spirit, but all 3 affirm that he is a literal omnipotent being. That humans will never have the ability to understand his will, and that only his judgment matters, etc.

i dont really mind religion for the most part but id rather just have a personal relationship with God because major religion as a whole can just be too problematic.

I could argue that The Bible has been translated a ridiculous amount of times and in the end no one will probably be 100% sure if ANY of us are following God's word the way it was intended, but maybe that's too basic of a statement. I'm sure we've both just found the reason why this is such a debated topic lol
I think a more believable interpretation, for me at least, is that "God's plan" isn't for every individual person, not for me and not for you, but for something much larger, which people are unable to understand and will probably never know.
It seems most religions can be divided by this same question. I'd actually love to know some of the verses, if you can quote any, which state of a plan for us, apart from Jeremiah 29:11 (Because in this scripture, he is talking to the people of Israel).

Also, I do agree religious communities (not religion, just the communities) can be extremely frustrating to deal with because of countless reasons, so practicing faith in your own way is always best, as long as you stay respectful. I guess in my case that would be not entering a church and stating my opinions lolol
I think, in the end, regardless how anyone practices the faith, it's important to be mindful of each other and debate these things respectfully (even if my tone was STRONG at the start honestly). Heretic people may be judged a little in very orthodox communities, but when it comes to modern interpretations of Christianity, most seem to not really care as long as the 10 commandments are followed and God isn't completely erased from the belief.
I'd say my doubt in God as a physical being came from a very similar experience to OP's, when I was a child. I'm sure loads of children of religious families grow up being told that they were brought into this world as part of something big. I was even told that all children were angels who chose what family they would be born into. Somewhere deep down I hated that idea, because my parents were quite unfit to be parents in nearly every sense.

Even at that age I didn't believe an all forgiving being could be so cruel as to make animals and people suffer. It seemed wrong. I felt that either this God I was told about wasn't all powerful, or was cruel. I don't believe that now, per se, but it's a question that always stuck and always will. Why do people and animals, which did no wrong by God, seem to suffer the most?

Part of me will always mourn the way I had dedicated my whole heart to faith at that stage of my life, but it's difficult to believe in something so complicated when my mind is full of these questions, which I will never have answers for. I feel like I can be thankful that I found my way back to any sort of faith at all right now, since for the longest time in my life, I was completely lost and miserable. Obviously, I won't say that religion fixes all problems, but it always felt like I was happier during that time where I had something to completely dedicate myself to.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

when atheists debate religious people they tend to adopt religious mindsets in order to make critiques on religion because if you present your arguments on the assumption that God doesnt exist, they tend to fall apart pretty quickly

But I presented arguments in favor of a god existing. As in, either they're imperfect, or they're transcendent, and they are rational in the assumption that the creation of a perfect god cannot be imperfect, as we are, or that we cannot understand a god's thought process, and thus, we aren't able to grasp their definition of perfection.

If I assume gods don't exist, they...just don't, there is no need for further explanation. I'm trying to argue for the existence of a god in a rational way, conforming to the reality of our own existence.

 

[aufrechtm7]

I could argue that The Bible has been translated a ridiculous amount of times and in the end no one will probably be 100% sure if ANY of us are following God's word the way it was intended, but maybe that's too basic of a statement. I'm sure we've both just found the reason why this is such a debated topic lol
I think a more believable interpretation, for me at least, is that "God's plan" isn't for every individual person, not for me and not for you, but for something much larger, which people are unable to understand and will probably never know.
It seems most religions can be divided by this same question. I'd actually love to know some of the verses, if you can quote any, which state of a plan for us, apart from Jeremiah 29:11 (Because in this scripture, he is talking to the people of Israel).

Also, I do agree religious communities (not religion, just the communities) can be extremely frustrating to deal with because of countless reasons, so practicing faith in your own way is always best, as long as you stay respectful. I guess in my case that would be not entering a church and stating my opinions lolol
I think, in the end, regardless how anyone practices the faith, it's important to be mindful of each other and debate these things respectfully (even if my tone was STRONG at the start honestly). Heretic people may be judged a little in very orthodox communities, but when it comes to modern interpretations of Christianity, most seem to not really care as long as the 10 commandments are followed and God isn't completely erased from the belief.
I'd say my doubt in God as a physical being came from a very similar experience to OP's, when I was a child. I'm sure loads of children of religious families grow up being told that they were brought into this world as part of something big. I was even told that all children were angels who chose what family they would be born into. Somewhere deep down I hated that idea, because my parents were quite unfit to be parents in nearly every sense.

Even at that age I didn't believe an all forgiving being could be so cruel as to make animals and people suffer. It seemed wrong. I felt that either this God I was told about wasn't all powerful, or was cruel. I don't believe that now, per se, but it's a question that always stuck and always will. Why do people and animals, which did no wrong by God, seem to suffer the most?

Part of me will always mourn the way I had dedicated my whole heart to faith at that stage of my life, but it's difficult to believe in something so complicated when my mind is full of these questions, which I will never have answers for. I feel like I can be thankful that I found my way back to any sort of faith at all right now, since for the longest time in my life, I was completely lost and miserable. Obviously, I won't say that religion fixes all problems, but it always felt like I was happier during that time where I had something to completely dedicate myself to.

I didn't think you were being disrespectful but I hope you didn't take my comment as being that way. I only mentioned it because what you were saying was quite a bit different from interpretive differences, not in a bad way though. Religion is naturally divisive and discourages personal interpretation when it comes to fundamental doctrine, and I don't think people should feel pressured for having their own opinions on that sort of stuff.

Everyone has different spiritual journeys, but I think the only truth that matters at the end of the day is the one you believe in which is why I agree with you.

But I presented arguments in favor of a god existing. As in, either they're imperfect, or they're transcendent, and they are rational in the assumption that the creation of a perfect god cannot be imperfect, as we are, or that we cannot understand a god's thought process, and thus, we aren't able to grasp their definition of perfection.

If I assume gods don't exist, they...just don't, there is no need for further explanation. I'm trying to argue for the existence of a god in a rational way, conforming to the reality of our own existence.

I was referring to rationalwiki, the problem of evil argument isn't effective at all and most of the arguments presented by the page is pretty much just atheistic rhetoric.

 

[MephiticShadow]

when atheists debate religious people they tend to adopt religious mindsets in order to make critiques on religion because if you present your arguments on the assumption that God doesnt exist, they tend to fall apart pretty quickly

Wow. The arrogance of this statement. I would have thought it was because they were trying to be respectful of the religious persons frame of reference, rather than that they couldn't possibly have a valid argument otherwise.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

I was referring to rationalwiki, the problem of evil argument isn't effective at all and most of the arguments presented by the page is pretty much just atheistic rhetoric.

Fair enough, though the problem of evil doesn't argue for the non-existence of a god, just that they must have created evil if they created everything. even if evil is the non-existence of good, it's still a byproduct of their creation, and as such, they are the primary cause. Which links to my rationalizations that such a god is either imperfect, or their concept of morality is completely different of ours, and in a way that would be unintelligible to us.

 

[aufrechtm7]

Wow. The arrogance of this statement. I would have thought it was because they were trying to be respectful of the religious persons frame of reference, rather than that they couldn't possibly have a valid argument otherwise.

???
This reads as sarcasm, but it's not that it isn't a rational argument, it is rational. Just because you've rationalized something doesn't fully validate it…I'm not religious, but you're not gonna have a productive discussion with someone if you can't put yourself in someone else's shoes. That goes for many things in life not just spiritual beliefs.

Fair enough, though the problem of evil doesn't argue for the non-existence of a god, just that they must have created evil if they created everything. even if evil is the non-existence of good, it's still a byproduct of their creation, and as such, they are the primary cause.

I agree, my original comment on this post was because even if you mention it to a Christian or Muslim, it does close to nothing on changing the way they think.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

I agree, my original comment on this post was because even if you mention it to a Christian or Muslim, it does close to nothing on changing the way they think.

Indeed, monotheistic religions tend to be very protective of their visions of god, and I think it's more to do with wanting to have a powerful figure to be able to psychologically rely on for support, reassurance and comfort, and less about the rules of said religion and its scriptures.

In a way, it's just like having an imaginary friend, and as long as it's used for the well-being of themselves and others, I have no gripe with it. It becomes harmful when they start imposing such into others, as if their imaginary friend somehow rules the universe, and should never be antagonized, lest they use it as an excuse for violence and abuse.

If a god is just a figment of our minds or a real being, it matters little, for in the end, as with most things, it can be used for good and for evil and it is never justification for our own demeanor.

 

[aufrechtm7]

It becomes harmful when they start imposing such into others, as if their imaginary friend somehow rules the universe, and should never be antagonized, lest they use it as an excuse for violence and abuse.

If a god is just a figment of our minds or a real being, it matters little, for in the end, as with most things, it can be used for good and for evil and it is never justification for our own demeanor.

Exactly. The interesting part about this is that they believe it's the truth of the world, yet there are people who reject that truth. Obviously people can be right or wrong, but there's no external reasoning to prove which religion is objectively true and any attempt to do so is rooted in pride, which funny enough…is a sin

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

Exactly. The interesting part about this is that they believe it's the truth of the world, yet there are people who reject that truth. Obviously people can be right or wrong, but there's no external reasoning to prove which religion is objectively true and any attempt to do so is rooted in pride, which funny enough…is a sin

Heh. Religions are always full of holes that can only be covered by blind faith. Cognitive dissonance is pretty much a requirement to truly believe on almost any religion. But talking about monotheistic gods alone is something more interesting, because if it exists, it also implies the discussion about the nature of such a god, and why we can't perceive it: is it existence itself? is it in a scale far beyond human comprehension? is it just an invisible, chaotic force that cannot be predicted or measured? Is it...us? are we the gods of our own existence, like a Boltzmann brain, and the fact we suffer is our own will manifested in our reality? Are we gods only when compared to such insignificant things such as atoms, as we displace billions just from waving our hands, and meld them into new forms to our own whims constantly? What exactly IS a god anyway?

 

[ForgetIExist]

The next time someone says "gods plan" or whatever. Ask em what the plan was when all those religious leaders raped/abused innocent children.

For real though. Traumatize them back