Discussion For those interested in the Nature Vs Nuture debate & more:

[MeltingHeart]

Currently watching something on the bbc called: What makes a murderer- as the title would suggest the focus of this ground- breaking study (via biological and psychological investigation) is on what makes someone predisposed to violent tendenacies, criminal activities and psychopathy- & yet i also feel many of the topics could be applied in some general sense to depresssion, mental illness and suicidality- seeing as if covers such subjects as gene studies, brain development, emotional blunting caused by childhood trauma (in very basic terms:easier to feel nothing than than to feel pain), predisposition towards stress/or experiencing it a different way to others via hormones & genetics that a person might have - but that might have remained dormant were it not for early negative childhood experiences & also that some people may possess a certain 'fearlessness' - again a combination of innate factors (as seen in brain scans) & life influences- I wonder if some people that suicide -relatively 'easily' (for want of a better word) - as in-not having to spend weeks on a forum to carry out the act- may simple possess this in built 'fearlessness' - they say that people such as racing car drivers & exteme sports people have it- that is they just dont feel fear in the same way others might do. Anyway just food for thought- not comparing the suicidal mind to that of a murderer - but just an interesting study in toxic brain development, genetics, childhood abandonment & that age old debate of nature Vs nuture and the complex intersections between these two factors.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Interesting. I think of this guy. Fearless.

Evel Knievel - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[MeltingHeart]

Interesting. I think of this guy. Fearless.

Evel Knievel - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Totally- I seem to remember in a docu he rather resented his son in the end for achieving (maybe out doing?) some of the same dare devils feats!

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Physcopathy is interesting too. I wonder if it is liberating to see the world like that?

 

[MeltingHeart]

Physcopathy is interesting too. I wonder if it is liberating to see the world like that?

Dunno - don't think I'd like to be own though! Even if it had meant I wouldn't have let other people break me.

 

[alizee]

Nature vs Nurture debate what just society trying to move focus away from determinism. Everything is cause & effect and so yes nature & nurture factor into how a life transpires. Free will is an illusion as it really doesn't exist. Nobody on this forum had choice to be here. People are born into a certain life without any choice and for some reason people like to think what comes after is different.

 

[MeltingHeart]

Nature vs Nurture debate what just society trying to move focus away from determinism. Everything is cause & effect and so yes nature & nurture factor into how a life transpires. Free will is an illusion as it really doesn't exist. Nobody on this forum had choice to be here. People are born into a certain life without any choice and for some reason people like to think what comes after is different.

I dont know much about determinism tbh- sounds like a more just a more fancy word for 'fate' but I dont know enough about it, when it comes to nature/nuture in childhood development - and later outcome of a 'good', 'happy' or 'sucessful life' I cant help but feel that often nuture can play a much stronger role than any existenting genetic factors- this has been proven in many twin studies that have been done-where they have been parted and adopted into different families. I feel the impact of adverse childhood experiences can not be understated-especially during early brain development, and even later such as in teens when the external world can seem somewhat threatening- you may want to rebel but you still seek that childlike reassuance of safety and security from care givers as you cross the threshold into independence and adulthood- if no sense of a 'safety net' is there when you take that step- it feels so much more daunting and scary and can preclude you from a feeling of confidence and emotional strengh-leading to any number of insecurities, anxiety issues, depression, addiction and more

 

[alizee]

I dont know much about determinism tbh- sounds like a more just a more fancy word for 'fate' but I dont know enough about it, when it comes to nature/nuture in childhood development - and later outcome of a 'good', 'happy' or 'sucessful life' I cant help but feel that often nuture can play a much stronger role than any existenting genetic factors- this has been proven in many twin studies that have been done-where they have been parted and adopted into different families. I feel the impact of adverse childhood experiences can not be understated-especially during early brain development, and even later such as in teens when the external world can seem somewhat threatening- you may want to rebel but you still seek that childlike reassuance of safety and security from care givers as you cross the threshold into independence and adulthood- if no sense of a 'safety net' is there when you take that step- it feels so much more daunting and scary and can preclude you from a feeling of confidence and emotional strengh-leading to any number of insecurities, anxiety issues, depression, addiction and more

You can google it: Determinism, in philosophy, theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. Determinism is usually understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do.

Everything experienced factors into how the outcome will be. Nature & nurture are just variables that will effect the outcome and there are other variables like financial status. Some things effect more than others and as well more or less for some people because of genetics but also the order of experiences being unique per person.

Determinism is a different concept than fate but determinism is a concept that will help a person understand how fate fundamentally exists for every thought, feeling, emotion, and event experienced.

 

[Wayfaerer]

Nature vs Nurture debate what just society trying to move focus away from determinism. Everything is cause & effect and so yes nature & nurture factor into how a life transpires. Free will is an illusion as it really doesn't exist. Nobody on this forum had choice to be here. People are born into a certain life without any choice and for some reason people like to think what comes after is different.

I don't know if we live in a purely deterministic universe because of quantum mechanics but I don't believe in free will either. Knowledge of our lack of free will can be liberating in a way.

 

[MeltingHeart]

I don't know if we live in a purely deterministic universe because of quantum mechanics but I don't believe in free will either. Knowledge of our lack of free will can be liberating in a way.

I dont know if i can even think about this deeply anymore- I feel philosophising, thinking about determinism etc, simply lets people off the hook- yeah i have become self-pitying, bitter, blaming others etc, and yeah maybe I could have made different decisions in my life that may have led me to a better past- but there is no doubt in my mind that people destroyed me- is this not taking responsibilty for myself? possibly, But we are as humans are designed as relational/ connected beings from the moment of birth (and throughout our lives) every single touch, word and interaction we receive from caregivers, friends & other humans will have an impact- for the good or for the bad-there is no doubt in my mind of the profund impact each human can have on another (this is why isolation is seen as the most severe form of punishment, the ultimate cruelty in prisons etc)-we truly have the abilty to make or break others through are social interations and communicative behaviors- it is at the very core of our nature. This is why I feel that I can say that without feeling like I am resorting to blame- people did this to me.

 

[bukowski]

Watch this documentary:

Three Identical Strangers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[MeltingHeart]

Watch this documentary:

Three Identical Strangers - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

sounds great, shocking though & tragic

 

[bukowski]

sounds great, shocking though & tragic

It can be hard to watch but it is worth it. Please reply back if you do watch as I would love to hear what you think about nature vs nurture after viewing - or from anyone else.

 

[MeltingHeart]

It can be hard to watch but it is worth it. Please reply back if you do watch as I would love to hear what you think about nature vs nurture after viewing - or from anyone else.

sure will do!- read that one of them ctb some time after the film had come out :( am interested to know who he was placed with & what his life had been like comparatively, also to see if as triplets they always felt a sense of something 'missing' from their lives-before they found out they had their brothers-especially as twins and such are often said to be so much closer/ more deeply connected that other siblings.

 

[bukowski]

You can google it: Determinism, in philosophy, theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. Determinism is usually understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do.

Everything experienced factors into how the outcome will be. Nature & nurture are just variables that will effect the outcome and there are other variables like financial status. Some things effect more than others and as well more or less for some people because of genetics but also the order of experiences being unique per person.

Determinism is a different concept than fate but determinism is a concept that will help a person understand how fate fundamentally exists for every thought, feeling, emotion, and event experienced.

Reminds me of the movie "Run Lola Run" which I took to be about free will vs determinism

 

[MeltingHeart]

@bukowski - watched it! that was very intense & emotional for me!, esp, as I my upbringing was so so awful and I WISH I had been adopted- though not in the same way that these guys were of course. Lots to think about/consider.

I felt like it was frustrating that it was never conclusive whether it was study on mental health (as many of the original parent had mental health- was that jut coincidence and a matter of conveninece as these people were more likely to give up there child-or was it indeed one of the focal points of the study) OR if it was a one of them suggested purely a study on variable in parenting style.

If it was a study in hereditary factors in mental health-then it is problematic-failing as it does to take into account seperation anxiety from not only the blood maternal figure at a very young age but also in their very closely genetically linked siblings- as they had said they all hit their heads and did strange things like that even as babies- so in fact the study in and of itself could certainly be said to exacerbate any innate mental health issue anyway, possibly even be the initial caue of them- so in that way - it is already flawed and bias, that before even taking into account finding out later on that you have essentially been a lab rat for your whole childhood & been lied to all that time- even if you had ok mental health before-thats gonna be a major head f**k.

I felt a little bad for the dad of the one who ctb- as at that point in the docu the suggestion was that it was largely a study on parental style- so in that case the implication is-why was he the one to ctb & not his brothers-but even though that dad did express remore I found it quite revealing that he said 'he didnt discuss his problems with me' & 'we didnt tell our problems to one another' whilst in the next breathe saying 'we protected each other-we were a nice family', something of a dichotomy there-IF they were so protective-why couldnt they share their problems- who could he go to, if not his adopted parents? still was sad though as it was clear he still loved them-but the film made it look like the other two did have more love and attention shown to them.

I did not like one of the researchers near the end-almost laughing about how he didnt want to slip up and say to one of them, ive just been with your identical brother! that pissed me off.

I was glad that they highlighted at the end that many of their similarities were exaggerated and overly focused on, even they admitted they played up to it to a certain extent- as they did kind of become sort of celebrities-it almost became a bit of an act- and the media only focused on the things that were alike-like smoking a very common cigarette brand-rather than acknowledging or allowing them the scope to be their own people and let their own personalities come through. That in itself may have been quite destablising for their sense of identity as they 'morphed' into one- where as they had previously not even known they had a brother till a v. late age.

Why did they want to meet the blood mother but not the dad I wonder?

Would he have still been alive if they had all been adopted into one family and grown up together& not been part of a very unethical study? Would it in some ways have been better if that had never found each other and the truth of their adoption? that would be sad in theory-but would it in some ways have protected the most vunerable one of the three? Would he have been ok if he'd been placed with a family that was a better 'fit' for him? That's the sad thing about a film such as this (and potentially any suicide) perhaps no one will ever know the true cause and at one point it could have been prevented, there are too many variables and too many different factor at play for there to be a conclusive answer. Definitely a very f**ked up experiment though- that should never have happened- it makes you wonder what other 'scientific' studies could be taking place right now-that wont come out untill a documentary is come out in 60 yrs time!

thks for the recommendation

 

[bukowski]

I'm glad you liked it! I hope it wasn't too emotional.

Both of the researchers seemed smug. I did not like how cavalier they were in treating these innocent boys, as you say, "like lab rats".

The father of the one who committed suicide was definitely treated unfairly. That was painful to watch.

What about nature vs nuture? Definitely no definitive takeaway but it felt like it could have been 50/50 here? What about the study? Should it be released? It is no longer a secret so who are they protecting? The subjects or the researchers? It seems like the damage has been done and maybe by publishing the study they could help those who are mentally ill?

Yes, what other studies like this are being conducted around the world and are they even more exploitative? And does the end ever justify the means?

I'm still amazed they managed to find each other. It's like they just knew that they existed. It must feel like a sci-fi film where you meet your doppelganger.

 

[MeltingHeart]

I'm glad you liked it! I hope it wasn't too emotional.

Both of the researchers seemed smug. I did not like how cavalier they were in treating these innocent boys, as you say, "like lab rats".

The father of the one who committed suicide was definitely treated unfairly. That was painful to watch.

What about nature vs nuture? Definitely no definitive takeaway but it felt like it could have been 50/50 here? What about the study? Should it be released? It is no longer a secret so who are they protecting? The subjects or the researchers? It seems like the damage has been done and maybe by publishing the study they could help those who are mentally ill?

Yes, what other studies like this are being conducted around the world and are they even more exploitative? And does the end ever justify the means?

I'm still amazed they managed to find each other. It's like they just knew that they existed. It must feel like a sci-fi film where you meet your doppelganger.

Yeah- the chances that he would even attend that same college that his Bro had just left was pretty insane! & that they lived relatively close to one another- I'm glad all the parents seemed to allow them to get really close - even though they were basically adults by then- but you imagine some less understanding parents might not have liked that their family as it was had been disrupted in this new way- as they became just so devoted to one another once they all met. It was sad that one dad said he would gladly have taken them all! So if it wouldn't have been for the study & corrupt adoption agency, that could have happened! It did say at the end that they were given all the past case notes on the study but maybe now they are old they just want to move on with what's left of their lives and not have to think about it too much anymore. The outcome seemed to me to imply that nature/ genetics plays a factor- but actually nuture is the vital and most over riding factor- in that it can exasebate/ trigger any existing factors or in good cases transcend and overcome them- though in this case how much of it was the family upbringing & how much did the study in itself cause the very problems it was supposedly meant to be investigating is unclear. Also why these studies (if it was only meant to be about upbringing & not inherited mental health) are carried out on the most vunerable people is shocking and baffling to me. I wonder if the birth mother knew? I guess not.

 

[alizee]

I don't know if we live in a purely deterministic universe because of quantum mechanics but I don't believe in free will either. Knowledge of our lack of free will can be liberating in a way.

Quantum mechanics wouldn't make us be able to have free will. Btw, quantum mechanics isn't even possible to prove that what is being observed is truly random. I can go into that if you want me. Sorry for the late reply.