Economic incentives of the state (or lies society tells)

[WhiteRabbit]

maybe my post come out as toxic or bitter. That was not my intention at all. If it came out as toxic I would delete but I dunno how

It wasn't toxic or bitter, but I don't agree that we're all forced to be here because we're assets or whatever. Like @Chinaski said, we can all ctb at anytime. No one is busting down my door and confiscating my knives because they want me to keep paying taxes.

 

[SuicidallyCurious]

The reason "society" discourages suicide is an obsession with saving lives, longevity, and the perception that people Committing suicide are suffering mental illness/emotional pain and simply need love and support. There's not a secret cabal of puppet masters opposing suicide in fear of losing their wage slaves. Who are these people be? Where do they meet and work out their diabolical policies?

No one said it's a secret cabal. It's out in the open. Why do you think it's banned by so many major religions ?

Feudalistic governments always needed manpower and in a world that they chose to run in such a hellish way they needed a way to prevent people from taking this easy out

 

[Fadeawaaaay]

No one said it's a secret cabal. It's out in the open. Why do you think it's banned by so many major religions ?

Feudalistic governments always needed manpower and in a world that they chose to run in such a hellish way they needed a way to prevent people from taking this easy out

As discussed previously in other threads, I don't think it's clear how many wage slaves would take their own lives if the means were easily accessible. My hunch is that most people want to live and adapt to their circumstances no matter how unpleasant. In other words, I don't think the powers that be spend a single moment thinking about how they can prevent their lackeys from ending their lives. There's always more cannon fodder if they lose a few.

 

[Chinaski]

Tbh this whole thread seems to suggest that we're being bred as some kind of drone workforce and would all mass suicide if we hadn't fallen for the pro-life propaganda of the illuminati who go to great lengths to ensure those who discover this truth can't possibly kill themselves. The reality is most people simply do not despise being alive and most see it as a worthwhile experience, it's really not that complicated.

 

[Nostalgic]

Tbh this whole thread seems to suggest that we're being bred as some kind of drone workforce and would all mass suicide if we hadn't fallen for the pro-life propaganda of the illuminati who go to great lengths to ensure those who discover this truth can't possibly kill themselves. The reality is most people simply do not despise being alive and most see it as a worthwhile experience, it's really not that complicated.

Again you are cherry picking what is being said here, no one is saying these things. Again "most people", are you the spokesperson for everyone on the planet. You can't assume that. if you are so happy with your life why are you even here. it seems counter productive seeing as your so happy with your life. Just asking. maybe it personal you don't have to answer if its intrusive.
nobody is pro life or vice versa. I think everyone should have the right choice to choose. But your under illusion if the government would just let that happen. They need workers they always have and always will, study population demographics and how it affects economic growth, you're under illusion otherwise. Maybe my point is controversial but that is what I think

 

[AnonymousS]

Even being a prisoner is all a part of the system. Prisoners are usually made to work and they made almost nothing doing what they do. That's probably why they throw mentally Ill people in prison with everyone else and let them get bullied and taken advantage of. It's so fucked up.

It certainly seems a "cheap" way to deal with some people. Almost warehousing people, just to move the problem along.

 

[Bleak]

I like the story that depressed, suicidal people are such valuable money makers for the government lol. We are the golden goose!

 

[Chinaski]

if you are so happy with your life why are you even here. it seems counter productive seeing as your so happy with your life. Just asking.

I'm here because l lack the required courage necessary to do the final deed hbu

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

The only reason why people prevent ctb because people (construction workers, doctors, restaurant workers etc) are assets (property) of the state. Prove me wrong.

In this competitive ruthless cutthroat world where everyone looks out for themselves I refuse to believe that random strangers truly care about other people. How soon would they sharpen their knives if it was a situation between you or them. Pessimistic I know but I think that's human nature. If you truly love someone, you know when to let them go

First of all, none of this was planned. What we have is the result of evolutionarily adaptive traits in small tribes (what is most often described as good) clashing against what's adaptive in big cities (what is most often described as bad).

Everybody does have the choice. We can all ctb today, or we can not ctb at all.

Not everyone is able to kill themselves with whatever they have lying around the house (handicaps, phobias, pain aversion, method-dependent SI, etc).

 

[SuicidallyCurious]

As discussed previously in other threads, I don't think it's clear how many wage slaves would take their own lives if the means were easily accessible. My hunch is that most people want to live and adapt to their circumstances no matter how unpleasant. In other words, I don't think the powers that be spend a single moment thinking about how they can prevent their lackeys from ending their lives. There's always more cannon fodder if they lose a few.

I don't think this holds true in this era given the falling birth rates. The countries that produce the people who do the actual real productivity work are all beginning to fall in population while the low IQ populations are still growing but birth rates falling even in those countries .

Look at what the CCP is doing , it's very clear they are scrambling to get high quality people to reproduce but it isn't working . I've also read and researched a lot about japan attempting to tackle youth suicides.

 

[Nostalgic]

Maybe my post sounded very conspiracy theorist but its not its how the world works. I probably could of worded it better. I guess my question has always been is life worth living? I dunno. This is a suicide forum, tired of the usual mantra and platitudes. Sometimes being in the world feels so lonely at times. Sorry if I offended anyone or came across as toxic.
Sometimes the world seems so ugly. There are always financial realities, like bills, food and rent. Like I wish you could just flick a button and shut it all off but you can't. The average human life expectancy is 80 years so I have a long way to go to pass away. Sometimes, most times I wish I was never born in the first place and I blame my parents. But I know its not their fault, so on and on the cycle goes I guess. Reproduce until infinity.

 

[Chinaski]

Maybe my post sounded very conspiracy theorist but its not its how the world works. I probably could of worded it better. I guess my question has always been is life worth living? I dunno. This is a suicide forum, tired of the usual mantra and platitudes. Sometimes being in the world feels so lonely at times. Sorry if I offended anyone or came across as toxic.
Sometimes the world seems so ugly. There are always financial realities, like bills, food and rent. Like I wish you could just flick a button and shut it all off but you can't. The average human life expectancy is 80 years so I have a long way to go to pass away. Sometimes, most times I wish I was never born in the first place and I blame my parents. But I know its not their fault, so on and on the cycle goes I guess. Reproduce until infinity.

Honestly l was not at all offended by any of your posts, l just disagreed with it, is all good imo.

 

[Heartattackpending]

If I had kept working construction, I would have been dead long ago or died trying so to speak. I feel bad for the people who have to do the crappy work that rich folks would never do. Slaughterhouse workers, fruitpickers, factory workers, truck drivers, you name it. In general, those who work hardest get paid the least. Fucked up system.

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

I think surprisingly many people would CTB if it was made legal, not nearly everyone of course. I also believe that there are no sensible arguments against making suicide completely legal and available for everyone.

I see a lot of similarities between this debate and the anti/pro abortion debate. The unborn do not suffer from not having lived. So there is no sensible humanistic argument against abortion. Similarly, those who CTB do not suffer from not living any longer, regardless of what the quality of this hypotethical life could have been. So there is no sensible humanistic argument against that either. We cannot require people to stay alive for the sake of other people.

 

[orange]

Yeah l dunno why THIS IS A SUICIDE FORUM is so frequently used as a backstop in any discussion on here, the nature of this forum should not subvert reality to the point where "most people I've met are not sadistic, even the assholes" is considered a weird viewpoint.

If this unironically what you believe you must have been lucky enough to occupy at least a middle position in the social jerarquies you've belonged to, and been blind to your own sadism. It's a common experience I guess.

 

[Chinaski]

If this unironically what you believe you must have been lucky enough to occupy at least a middle position in the social jerarquies you've belonged to, and been blind to your own sadism. It's a common experience I guess.

Not really, l think it's more based around the fact that most people I've met haven't gone absolutely out of their way to do harm and would generally do the "right" thing when presented with someone in a particularly bad way, even those whom l can't personally stand.

This is *on average* l must stress obviously there are a hell of a lot of rank bastards out there and many of them reach positions of high power, but the average person is not a nasty piece of shit by instinct.

 

[idiotstillwantstodie]

It wasn't toxic or bitter, but I don't agree that we're all forced to be here because we're assets or whatever. Like @Chinaski said, we can all ctb at anytime. No one is busting down my door and confiscating my knives because they want me to keep paying taxes.

Walk me through how exactly you would CTB with your knives and how this is a realistic scenario.

Most people dont have D's email. Most people dont know who D is. Most people dont know that he sells N. Most people dont know what N is. Most people dont know that substances like N can be acquired form trusthworthy sources.

People dont know, because the system is preventing them from acquiring the knowledge.

 

[little helpers]

The only reason why people prevent ctb because people (construction workers, doctors, restaurant workers etc) are assets (property) of the state.

totally. assests, property, possessions.

join armchair anarchist by the name of little helpers and, emm, what do we do? sorry I'm not up for the doing part today. I'm dying. smh.

 

[Nostalgic]

Lets go back to history and remember the witch trials in the 1600s where the masses would burns women and children at stakes because they thought they were practicing witchcraft. Or lets go back to the populations of nazi Germany. The German people persecuting Jewish people. You say that most people are not bad people I agree at least in todays times. Most people are not completely good or bad. They are just shades of grey. This is why there motives needs to be analysed.

For example If I'm a christian and I believe that life is sacred and I see a terminally ill patient who is in pain everyday. That patient wants to end his/her suffering and I forcibly chain him/her up and drug them so they can't do this. The patient lives for decades more in complete agony but I don't believe in euthanasia does that make me a good person? Maybe according to my religion but in objective terms am I a morally good person. That is the discussion here.

Everybody has their faiths and their beliefs and im not questioning that. The only thing im questioning is why they have their faiths and beliefs if they are a good thing. Lets just say ctb in legal and perfectly acceptable and birthrates plummet. Two parents need to have at least two children so they can replace themselves. if they don't a population of a country gradually plummets until the country goes extinct. Christians know this, the catholic church knows this. Why do you think they are always preaching that people who don't have children are selfish. Its not always necessarily that they believe that all life is special and important. If people don't keep on having children at a rate of at least 3.1 per mother because people die. The human race would go extinct. The government and people would NEVER allow this. That is why ctb is not allowed. Reality is cutthroat. This is the point that I was trying to make.

 

[GentlyFading]

I agree with you on everything but "people are inherently selfish." We are inherently pro-social organisms. We are dependent on other humans for YEARS longer than most other mammals. Our neurology is wired to care about whether other humans approve of us (social media takes ample advantage of this innate need for approval), because being isolated from the "troop" entails death.

There is of course a loophole for this which is in the way we delineate between the self and the other. I'm German and know well aware about how we can harm other humans while maintaining our own sanity: by seeing them as something other, something inhuman. Centuries of antisemitism and antizignasmus primed us for enacting genocide.

It's the constructed narratives that convince us to harm other, not our innate humanity. Aha it's more that the "humans are inherently selfish," is an oversimplification. We have the ability to be caring and think beyond the knee-jerk reaction and challenge the biases presented to us. Are we flawed organisms? YES. I definetly think that if a god made an "ideal life form" it would not be humans. Writing humans off as a failed species runs in line with Malthusian philosphies as well as general "eco-fascist" beliefs which are very very shortsighted and imo fucked up.

Lol I'm drunk so let's see if this makes sense tomorrow morning XD

totally. assests, property, possessions.

join armchair anarchist by the name of little helpers and, emm, what do we do? sorry I'm not up for the doing part today. I'm dying. smh.

I've interacted with you a few times on here so sorry this is out of the blue, but I appreciate you a lot love <3

 

[deflationary]

I'm here because l lack the required courage necessary to do the final deed hbu

I don't want to traumatize a loved one. Saying that everyone can just kill themselves at any time is pretty offensive and kinda asinine in light of society's general attitude towards death and suicide and its banning of the best methods. People make suicide needlessly traumatic for themselves with their nonsensical fairytale beliefs about life.

We all have a natural and completely irrational survival instinct and dread of death and instead of trying to counter those, the general stance of society is to bolster them and make it even harder for people to commit suicide. That absolutely deserves to be criticized by the ones that fall victim to that policy. Why would a suicidal person that's been forced into this life without having any say in it put the interests of the rest of this society above their own (if they really are in conflict)? Why shouldn't he criticize and vent about the absurd shittiness of the whole system? Why should he be coy about demanding that things be more to his advantage? If people don't want to give others as easy as possible way out, then they shouldn't be creating new people in the first place.

Yes, expecting this society to not be an utter shitshow is completely unrealistic, that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with pointing out all the different ways in which it is in fact a shitshow.

 

[Chinaski]

I don't want to traumatize a loved one. Saying that everyone can just kill themselves at any time is pretty offensive and kinda asinine in light of society's general attitude towards death and suicide and its banning of the best methods. People make suicide needlessly traumatic for themselves with their nonsensical fairytale beliefs about life.

We all have a natural and completely irrational survival instinct and dread of death and instead of trying to counter those, the general stance of society is to bolster them and make it even harder for people to commit suicide. That absolutely deserves to be criticized by the ones that fall victim to that policy. Why would a suicidal person that's been forced into this life without having any say in it put the interests of the rest of this society above their own (if they really are in conflict)? Why shouldn't he criticize and vent about the absurd shittiness of the whole system? Why should he be coy about demanding that things be more to his advantage? If people don't want to give others as easy as possible way out, then they shouldn't be creating new people in the first place.

Yes, expecting this society to not be an utter shitshow is completely unrealistic, that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with pointing out all the different ways in which it is in fact a shitshow.

The fact remains we *can* kill ourselves at any time of our choosing, myself included. I don't get why this bald fact is perceived as such an offensive statement on here, there is much more honesty in admitting that something within is holding us back than there is in blaming society for not enabling it. I too am pissed off when l wake each morning and realise that, once again, l have failed to pass peacefully in my sleep but ultimately I'm the only person who can hasten this and to me it's absolutely illogical to turn this frustration outward.

 

[deflationary]

The fact remains we *can* kill ourselves at any time of our choosing, myself included. I don't get why this bald fact is perceived as such an offensive statement on here, there is much more honesty in admitting that something within is holding us back than there is in blaming society for not enabling it. I too am pissed off when l wake each morning and realise that, once again, l have failed to pass peacefully in my sleep but ultimately I'm the only person who can hasten this and to me it's absolutely illogical to turn this frustration outward.

Why is it illogical if it is in fact made needlessly harder by outside forces? I don't think saying it's all on the person themselves is the enlightened take here.

 

[Chinaski]

Why is it illogical if it is in fact made needlessly harder by outside forces? I don't think saying it's all on the person themselves is the enlightened take here.

It depends where the line is drawn when you say "needlessly harder" and what you mean by "outside forces". I mean we've done the Enlightened Takes in the numerous "free euthanasia for all!!" chats on here, my head is still spinning from the last wonderful go-round but my own view is it's something within us which is sadly keeping us here, rather than a sadistic society who won't provide a physician to kill us on request, and there's no shame in admitting that imo.

 

[Pluto]

As an aside, I was recently researching the somewhat outlandish possibility of moving to India. Fascinating to see how tricky it is to find information on the Australian Government website about topics like renouncing citizenship, permanently leaving the country, accessing one's superannuation and so forth. The bias in the readily available information reminded me somewhat of the efforts they make to stifle discussion on end-of-life issues. I'm no conspiracy theorist, but they clearly have an agenda.

 

[Alan James]

There is no conspiracy in this. Just human stupidity. The majority of the world's population is against the legalization of euthanasia for everyone because they are brainwashed, they live like drones or NPC in games according to programs (which were written for them by "social engineers").

And there is no real financial benefit not to let people with disabilities end their lives legally and painlessly, but to pay them lifelong disability pensions. From a financial point of view, this only incurs losses and large ones. On the contrary, more and more countries are beginning to legalize euthanasia/assist dying for financial reasons.

 

[Fragile]

The reality is far more complicated than simply saying that we are some sort of property that produces wealth for the state, and that everyone is a selfish drone who only looks for themselves.

Don't take this the wrong way, but saying such thing and putting every person and social structure under the same blanket is just a naive perspective. Especially when knowing that many people that contemplate suicide are a net negative for society in terms of its economic value. There are incurable mental illnesses, addictions, illnesses and unfixable situations that become a waste of capital for our society, even old age is something that drags the economy down and makes many people decide to end it.

Why do the keep us alive then? Because, simply put, the death of a person is something extremely unsavory, traumatic, something that our basic social instincts force us to avoid at all cost. We know we can't fix everything, but we like to pretend like there's a solution, and that everything will be fine.
Then we also have the people who judge the morality of the suicidal without empathy, but I'd rather not get into their shitty perspective.

Ignoring the morality and implications of suicide in favor of mere economic factors is such a simplistic and false perspective on the human being, I just can't take it seriously, and it's such a common view nowadays.

 

[*Psyche*]

If humans cared for each other all that much,we wouldn't be on this forum.

Do we not care for each other on this forum?

 

[Alan James]

I used to also consider this an important or even the main reason why people are not given the right to painless legal death. But in practice it turns out like this, for example, there are people with disabilities like me on whom the state is forced to spend money. Those who do not work and never will, who do not buy medicines all their lives (the state gives them for free), who do not pay any taxes (except hidden ones), which are consumed at the level of the living wage. How do people like me benefit them? Why not give us the right to euthanasia? If it's all about money, then we don't bring them more money, but exactly the opposite.

If it was all about their greed for money, then it would at least be logical and rational. But there is not a single logical reason not to give the terminally ill who in any case will inevitably die and the disabled the right to voluntary euthanasia. This is idiocy, this is pointless. This is especially unpleasant.

 

[Chinaski]

I used to also consider this an important or even the main reason why people are not given the right to painless legal death. But in practice it turns out like this, for example, there are people with disabilities like me on whom the state is forced to spend money. Those who do not work and never will, who do not buy medicines all their lives (the state gives them for free), who do not pay any taxes (except hidden ones), which are consumed at the level of the living wage. How do people like me benefit them? Why not give us the right to euthanasia? If it's all about money, then we don't bring them more money, but exactly the opposite.

If it was all about their greed for money, then it would at least be logical and rational. But there is not a single logical reason not to give the terminally ill who in any case will inevitably die and the disabled the right to voluntary euthanasia. This is idiocy, this is pointless. This is especially unpleasant.

I'd be very careful about making the argument that euthanasia for the disabled is good because it serves the economic interests of the wealthy and powerful tbh.