Discussion dont really understand the anti life ideology

[zeek]

i do want to kill myself, but i just dont understand the people in here who assign a negative value to just living in general.
i understand attaching negative value to YOUR life, but why living?
would you not keep living if your life was perfect?

 

[moondazed]

i do want to kill myself, but i just dont understand the people in here who assign a negative value to just living in general.
i understand attaching negative value to YOUR life, but why living?
would you not keep living if your life was perfect?

I think a lot of it stems from the anti-natalism belief system, that humans are a scourge on this planet and living is inherently painful and a struggle, and it is immoral to bring more life into this world simply to struggle. I don't prescribe to that belief system myself, but many do and there are a lot of valid reasons why.

 

[kelimackie]

Being alive in itself already means that you're going to suffer or make others suffer. The amount may vary, but it's just how it is.

Existing means we're using resources from the planet, fucking it up for other species that don't fuck up the planet existing.

 

[FuneralCry]

The thing that I don't really understand is what is supposedly so desirable about existing in the first place to make people value and worship it so much, it's just the reality that not everyone even wants to exist, I don't believe that existence was something worth having in the first place.

I see it as such a terrible curse to be a conscious being burdened with the ability to suffer, trapped in this decaying flesh prison, existence repulses me as it's the ultimate source of all harm, and existence just causes harm, all that existence does is create problems there was never a need for.

In my case it comforts me the thought of no longer existing and I wouldn't wish to exist under any circumstances, only nothingness is perfection to me.
I believe that existence is a horrific mistake, that is best forgotten about and erased as after all if there was no existence there would be no suffering, it's undeniable that existence is so hellish with the endless amounts of torment and agony it's ultimately caused all throughout history.

I just have no interest in this futile and torturous process of decaying from age, there is no point to it, I see no value in meaningless and unnecessary suffering all while risking experiencing much worse torture at any moment. I see existence as always something best avoided, I'd prefer to sleep eternally. Anti-life is just anti-suffering and I see all suffering as undesirable.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

I think that the people who are against living - within itself - might have experienced enough issues in their lives to push them over the edge, and each person has their own tolerance level(s). For example: if a person has been abused constantly for many years, and they witness others who have not been abused, then it can lead to the said person developing a view that life is cruel in a random sort of way. I am not saying that I agree with this though; I believe that everybody is capable of suffering - even those who are perceived as having a happy or so-called "perfect" life. Whether or not you wish to tolerate that suffering, regardless of your circumstances, should be your choice.

would you not keep living if your life was perfect?

Perfection is subjective; if a person wishes to live life - instead of killing themselves - then the closest they can get, is to try and achieve contentment. Everybody has different wants though, and a person might be unable to satisfy their own wants for multiple reasons.

 

[disgustingmale]

"would you not keep living if your life was perfect?"
Even if my life was perfect, I would be miserable for knowing that non-existence was just around the corner. No matter how good the distractions, emptiness is always better. Emptiness is perfect. Emptiness doesn't disappoint. Emptiness doesn't harm or hurt. Existence is second-best to it.
P.s. I keep living even though my life is thoroughly imperfect. I wish I wasn't alive but I don't have the courage to kill myself.

 

[nothingbutmybest]

Liking life is like liking poop. There are traits that are good and bad that people weigh differently. Regular people hate poop (obviously) but epidemiologists are fascinated by the diseases found within collective sewage while poop eaters are just... poop eaters. The only difference is that there are infinitely more aspects of life than there are aspects of poop, good and bad. Some people just weigh the bad aspects more, which makes sense given that they want to die.

 

[figurehead]

I kind of understand you. The thing is great part of the time suicide is an illness, an addiction, impossible to get over. My life is fine, obviously far from being a paradise but I've got a loving family and 2 dogs that I love. Still when I become suicidal I fall into that kind of discourse, I want nothing but death despite the people who love me. It does become an obsession I can't get over. That's just me tho.

 

[Jealous Blackheart]

There is a movie called Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street, and in it there is a song called Epiphany, and in it there's a part that goes:

"They all deserve to die
Tell you why, Mrs. Lovett, tell you why
Because in all of the whole human race
Mrs. Lovett, there are two kinds of men and only two
There's the one staying put in his proper place
And the one with his foot in the other one's face
Look at me, Mrs Lovett, look at you

No, we all deserve to die
Even you, Mrs. Lovett, even I
Because the lives of the wicked should be made brief
For the rest of us death will be relief
We all deserve to die"

It is worth mentioning that while he is the protagonist he is no hero, but I think this sums it up.

 

[wildflowers1996]

I don't really understand it either
Everyone's life has some suffering but if your happiness outweighs your suffering I don't understand why people don't want to live
It's just in my life I know the suffering will always be prevalent so I want to die

 

[MyChoiceAlone]

i don't even know what to tell you anymore. i read so much of that myself. hey. you do you. if you don't like it, ignore it. just be yourself. no need to conform here...

 

[Mr.Tristesse]

Because they let themselves be dominated by their bias.

 

[MyExistenceMyChoice]

i do want to kill myself, but i just dont understand the people in here who assign a negative value to just living in general.
i understand attaching negative value to YOUR life, but why living?
would you not keep living if your life was perfect?

There's no such thing as a "perfect life" imo, once your here, once your born, your fucked and that's it, you're going to inevitably suffer greatly and die painfully, a "perfect life" is impossible, because life itself is intrinsically awful. you can have all the money and material and status bullshit you want it's all meaningless, pointless and all it does is temporarily delude you to the true nature of life which is boredom and suffering which is inherent to existence. You can desire as much pleasure as you want there will always be more suffering than there is pleasure plus the suffering is infinitely more destructive than the pleasure could ever be pleasurable.

"Pleasure is never as pleasant as we expected it to be and pain is always more painful. The pain in the world always outweighs the pleasure. If you don't believe it, compare the respective feelings of two animals, one of which is eating the other."

"It would be better if there were nothing. Since there is more pain than pleasure on earth, every satisfaction is only transitory, creating new desires and new distresses, and the agony of the devoured animal is always far greater than the pleasure of the devourer" - Schopenhauer

 

[SamTam33]

What is living?

After you've answered that question, ask yourself if it makes sense to be pro... THAT.

Could you convince the unborn to be born based solely on your definition of living? How long would it take you to convince them?

Look at it another way: if you were stuck someplace you didn't want to be (your parents make you go to church or your spouse makes you spend the holidays with their family whom you despise) and you have to stay there for 70 - 80 years, wouldn't you eventually become anti-church or anti-holidays?

How long before you reach that point? Would you have to go to church every week for 20 years before you hated its existence?

Would you have to listen to your in-laws argue at Christmas for 30 years before you started to loathe the month of December?

Think you'd have to be imprisoned for 40 years before you became anti-judge and anti-jury?

Chances are, you'd become anti-WHATEVER a helluva lot sooner than that.

But when it comes to life... Yes, you're here for decades through no fault of your own. Yeah, you don't want to be here... Ok, so it makes you unhappy... But why are you anti-living?

Is the answer not apparent; is it not clear as day?

 

[zeek]

There's no such thing as a "perfect life" imo, once your here, once your born, your fucked and that's it, you're going to inevitably suffer greatly and die painfully, a "perfect life" is impossible, because life itself is intrinsically awful. you can have all the money and material and status bullshit you want it's all meaningless, pointless and all it does is temporarily delude you to the true nature of life which is boredom and suffering which is inherent to existence. You can desire as much pleasure as you want there will always be more suffering than there is pleasure plus the suffering is infinitely more destructive than the pleasure could ever be pleasurable.

"Pleasure is never as pleasant as we expected it to be and pain is always more painful. The pain in the world always outweighs the pleasure. If you don't believe it, compare the respective feelings of two animals, one of which is eating the other."

"It would be better if there were nothing. Since there is more pain than pleasure on earth, every satisfaction is only transitory, creating new desires and new distresses, and the agony of the devoured animal is always far greater than the pleasure of the devourer" - Schopenhauer

ok this is based, i agree

 

[sserafim]

I just don't see a point in life or purpose to living. I don't see a value in it either

What is living?

After you've answered that question, ask yourself if it makes sense to be pro... THAT.

Could you convince the unborn to be born based solely on your definition of living? How long would it take you to convince them?

Look at it another way: if you were stuck someplace you didn't want to be (your parents make you go to church or your spouse makes you spend the holidays with their family whom you despise) and you have to stay there for 70 - 80 years, wouldn't you eventually become anti-church or anti-holidays?

How long before you reach that point? Would you have to go to church every week for 20 years before you hated its existence?

Would you have to listen to your in-laws argue at Christmas for 30 years before you started to loathe the month of December?

Think you'd have to be imprisoned for 40 years before you became anti-judge and anti-jury?

Chances are, you'd become anti-WHATEVER a helluva lot sooner than that.

But when it comes to life... Yes, you're here for decades through no fault of your own. Yeah, you don't want to be here... Ok, so it makes you unhappy... But why are you anti-living?

Is the answer not apparent; is it not clear as day?

The thing I hate the most is that none of us consented to existence. We didn't have a choice in it. I wish we had a choice before we were born about whether we would be born or not. I get that most people enjoy their lives but I'm one who doesn't and I hate the fact that I was brought into existence without my consent.

"would you not keep living if your life was perfect?"
Even if my life was perfect, I would be miserable for knowing that non-existence was just around the corner. No matter how good the distractions, emptiness is always better. Emptiness is perfect. Emptiness doesn't disappoint. Emptiness doesn't harm or hurt. Existence is second-best to it.
P.s. I keep living even though my life is thoroughly imperfect. I wish I wasn't alive but I don't have the courage to kill myself.

Life is honestly just a bunch of distractions and things you do before you die.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

Even if we have great lives ourselves, other people somewhere will always be suffering and that's not ok. Even as a child when my life was pretty close to ideal (wonderful parents and grandparents, sheltered upbringing, anything I wanted etc.) I was still VERY aware of human and animal suffering. Now if you can tune that out and never think about it or let it bother you or say "I'm lucky I'm not going through what they're going through" more power to ya, I just can't really justify it.

 

[disgustingmale]

There is a movie called Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street, and in it there is a song called Epiphany, and in it there's a part that goes:

"They all deserve to die
Tell you why, Mrs. Lovett, tell you why
Because in all of the whole human race
Mrs. Lovett, there are two kinds of men and only two
There's the one staying put in his proper place
And the one with his foot in the other one's face
Look at me, Mrs Lovett, look at you

No, we all deserve to die
Even you, Mrs. Lovett, even I
Because the lives of the wicked should be made brief
For the rest of us death will be relief
We all deserve to die"

It is worth mentioning that while he is the protagonist he is no hero, but I think this sums it up.

Thank you for quoting the movie, it's one of my all time favorites and this made me watch it again. Still holds up well.

 

[Cloud Busting]

I think a lot of it stems from the anti-natalism belief system, that humans are a scourge on this planet and living is inherently painful and a struggle, and it is immoral to bring more life into this world simply to struggle. I don't prescribe to that belief system myself, but many do and there are a lot of valid reasons why.

Exactly this.

I'm an existential nihilist. Absurdism is more my bag. I know it's not for everyone. I want to read Better to Have Never Been to deepen my understanding of anti-natalism personally.

What I really don't understand is the idea that suffering outweighs pleasure. In no way do I mean to discredit this view. I realize this is the reality for many. It's just not something I experience personally.

For me, pleasure and suffering is very cyclical. I go from states of ecstasy to melancholy. I suppose my suffering outweighs my joy, but only because I feel it more strongly, and dwell on it more. I'm working on not doing this, as I'm hoping it will increase the amounts of pleasure I experience.

I just really enjoy experiencing pleasure. My dad passed, and while it hurt, the pain was worth the pleasure his presence provided. Pleasure outweighs pain for me. My problem is I experience pain more often, which I do believe is related to my faulty thought patterns personally.

Life is all for nothing. But there are beautiful things in life that really make it worth it. I hate the destruction of mankind, greed, and everything. But I love the moon. If I didn't hate myself I wouldn't be suicidal probably.

It makes sense anti-natalists would frequent a suicide forum. Same with nihilists and atheists. I respect the view of anti-natalists here. Not everyone assigns a purely negative value to life tho op. You're not alone.

 

[moondazed]

For me, pleasure and suffering is very cyclical. I go from states of ecstasy to melancholy. I suppose my suffering outweighs my joy, but only because I feel it more strongly, and dwell on it more. I'm working on not doing this, as I'm hoping it will increase the amounts of pleasure I experience.

I'm right there with you. The cycles often keep me around too. With the hope that after the violence of my dread does it's damage, a bright day might be around the corner where I get that drop of joy. And those times do happen, however rare.

Rachel Carson, a famous author and biologist has this beautiful quote that goes "Those who contemplate the beauty of the earth find reserves of strength that will endure as long as life lasts. There is something infinitely healing in the repeated refrains of nature…the assurance that dawn comes after night, and spring after winter."

It's a cheesy, romantic, and unrealistic quote in many ways. But it helps me, so I think that counts for something.

 

[Saxenomorph]

My life isn't bad actually, i even like it to a degree. But life is, like, really boring? I don't really want to be alive if it keeps on going without change. Not to mention overwhelming amount of horror in this world. And no, a beautiful landscape or some puppies aren't enough to change my mind.

 

[mehdone]

i do want to kill myself, but i just dont understand the people in here who assign a negative value to just living in general.
i understand attaching negative value to YOUR life, but why living?
would you not keep living if your life was perfect?

Well, my experience with living has only been in my own life. I can't help but attach a negative value to it when it has been constant suffering.

I don't attach a negative value to other people's lives, or to them living. If living is good, positive, or at least tolerable to them? Wonderful. I'm glad.

That's not been my personal experience. I absolutely think living is crap, as that has been my experience in life.

Even when my life has been, "good", even when I've been able to say hey, it can't get any better- that hasn't stopped me from wanting to die. There is no "perfect". My brain is not correctly wired for life, nor is my body. If I can look around and say, hey, I've got love, I've got support, I've got everything I need, I've got everything a person should want or need in life to be happy- but I still don't want to fucking wake up in the morning? Yeah, something is wrong with *me* there. And honestly, when times have been better- knowing that I should be okay but wasn't made it even worse mentally.

I do not like life. I do not like living. Life doesn't like me, and living causes me significant suffering and pain.

 

[Cloud Busting]

I'm right there with you. The cycles often keep me around too. With the hope that after the violence of my dread does it's damage, a bright day might be around the corner where I get that drop of joy. And those times do happen, however rare.

I'm trying to prolong those moments of joy, or at the very least experience them more frequently. It's a difficult process. I very much worry the excessive suffering will persist and I will have no choice but to die. I always found it interesting- suicide doesn't feel like a choice for me, but like I'd be dying of a disease to be honest. Some die of cancer. In my case I'd die of suffering.

It's weird, like every time I've been near suicide it's this gradual thing that peaks until I'm close to or actually do attempt. Then I settle down and just wait for the next episode to kick in and render me suicidal aha.

"Those who contemplate the beauty of the earth find reserves of strength that will endure as long as life lasts. There is something infinitely healing in the repeated refrains of nature…the assurance that dawn comes after night, and spring after winter."

That's beautiful. Thanks for sharing. It was always interesting to me how Sylvia Plath wrote of oscillating between joy and despairing negative. She loved the world yet hated her pain, and always held a deep appreciation for nature.

This won't work for everyone but I really do love the world, for art, beauty, and nature is so gorgeous and it's so nice to experience. My problem is when I'm stressed out or experiencing anhedonia I can't gain pleasure from the simple things anymore and that's when I wanna die.

I'd say I'd assign a neutral value to life, myself. It's what you make of it imo. So nice to find someone here I relate to

 

[Forever Sleep]

There are one or two people here who claim they have never had a happy moment- so- I guess they simply can't envisage what a 'perfect' life would look like. I don't know but maybe they can't experience joy, or steadfastly refuse to.

For others, the bad far outweighs the good. Maybe they have had some better times but- they have either been short lived, enormously difficult to maintain, or- they have been followed and contrasted with very bad lows. So- they form the opinion that life simply isn't worth it.

When you're talking of a 'perfect' life- it's also about realism. How realistic is it we will achieve our perfect life? Even a better life? What is it we need? Money? That requires working or winning the lottery. What if work is the reason we are suicidal? Health issues? What if there isn't adequate treatment available?

I think many people get to this point because they have already tried and failed to improve their lives- most likely multiple times. As for hating life itself- I think it depends on the person's history. What has happened to them to make them either enjoy or hate life? Plus- how realistic does it feel to them that they could even achieve an ok life? If they don't see a solution, they may well start to see existence itself as the major problem.

I can definitely understand it on an individual basis but personally, I have problems seeing it written as some universal truth. It's an individual bias that makes sense to that individual. Same as pro-life views really- just opposite!

 

[Mr.Tristesse]

There are one or two people here who claim they have never had a happy moment- so- I guess they simply can't envisage what a 'perfect' life would look like. I don't know but maybe they can't experience joy, or steadfastly refuse to.

For others, the bad far outweighs the good. Maybe they have had some better times but- they have either been short lived, enormously difficult to maintain, or- they have been followed and contrasted with very bad lows. So- they form the opinion that life simply isn't worth it.

When you're talking of a 'perfect' life- it's also about realism. How realistic is it we will achieve our perfect life? Even a better life? What is it we need? Money? That requires working or winning the lottery. What if work is the reason we are suicidal? Health issues? What if there isn't adequate treatment available?

I think many people get to this point because they have already tried and failed to improve their lives- most likely multiple times. As for hating life itself- I think it depends on the person's history. What has happened to them to make them either enjoy or hate life? Plus- how realistic does it feel to them that they could even achieve an ok life? If they don't see a solution, they may well start to see existence itself as the major problem.

I can definitely understand it on an individual basis but personally, I have problems seeing it written as some universal truth. It's an individual bias that makes sense to that individual. Same as pro-life views really- just opposite!

After all most people find life worthwhile. That has nothing to do with perfection and is in fact a pretty abysmally low bar to clear (all the sadder that we cannot reach it). People here will say it's delusions that make people complacent but if life were so utterly terrible then I doubt any kind of delusions would be able to hold for that long.

 

[Aim]

I know its not the worlds problem or etc etc. In my case its illness. that makes living hard. Not life itself. most people are kind and wants to help. But its frustration when nothing seems to work. No mather how hard one try. But absolutly not the worlds fault. <3

 

[antilife]

I'm antilife, I'm anti my life. I think there is a possibility for some people to live a life they want to live. I surely would want to live if I was a different person.

 

[uncat_]

There is a movie called Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street, and in it there is a song called Epiphany, and in it there's a part that goes:

"They all deserve to die
Tell you why, Mrs. Lovett, tell you why
Because in all of the whole human race
Mrs. Lovett, there are two kinds of men and only two
There's the one staying put in his proper place
And the one with his foot in the other one's face
Look at me, Mrs Lovett, look at you

No, we all deserve to die
Even you, Mrs. Lovett, even I
Because the lives of the wicked should be made brief
For the rest of us death will be relief
We all deserve to die"

It is worth mentioning that while he is the protagonist he is no hero, but I think this sums it up.

i was Mrs. Lovett for Halloween this year :)
and yes, that ideology is quite tempting.