Does God Exist?

[Johnnythefox]

Oh -- God exists, alright. And he needs your money!

Don't forget your hat.

 

[Kta1994]

I believe in god but i dont think interferes much with whats going here otherwise i woudlnt be suffering this bad with chronic pain

 

[weargon]

Pretty simple.

 

[EddieAllenPoe]

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". --Carl Sagan

This is absolutely true. Extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence.

I fail to see how this statement supports a disbelief in God, however. After all, have you seen our universe? It's actually quite extraordinary. It's also evidence. What about the earth we're on and the biological lifeforms living on it? These things are all astounding. I can actually see them with my eyes. Aren't we also having a conversation right now about abstract topics? Yes, we are. Human minds are incredible. They're also evidence.

What's more amazing is that we are capable of talking about these things across great distances through the power of the internet. How do you suppose this technology is possible? I highly doubt you would be bold enough to claim it was due to random chance. We actually know this is stupid. We actually know how computers and the internet came into existence. They were designed and created by other intelligent beings who existed within our own universe. It wasn't random. We have evidence to support this belief because we have historical records to turn to. Where would we be today without Wikipedia?

Imagine if we we were simply born with computers already existing. Imagine if Wikipedia was gone and we had no record of where computers came from. Would you look at a computer and assume we got it because it randomly assembled itself? I certainly hope not. If everything else were still the same, then it would still not be reasonable. The computer is an extraordinarily complex machine and we know due to simple odds that it's not likely it became assembled by itself. Did the computer come into existence overnight? No. Was the development of the computer a perfect process? No. It wasn't random though. Without any evidence of a creator I would still be more inclined to believe that computers existed because of other intelligent being(s).

If I simply said that the universe and all life within it came into existence randomly then I would be making an extraordinary claim. It goes against reason. Complex machines require intelligent designers because of the laws of probability. Our whole universe is a complex machine. Yet somehow atheists have no problem claiming it came into existence randomly and they have no problem insisting this is somehow reasonable. How? Discovering evidence for biological evolution or unraveling evidence for the Big Bang does not actually change anything. If anything it makes the reality of our existence more astounding. We simply cannot conceive of how remarkable our universe actually is. The universe is a remarkably complex machine. Complex machines do not simply happen. Of all people, I can actually thank Richard Dawkins for helping me see this. I highly recommend reading his books. He is remarkably skilled at conveying the beauty of complex biological processes. I don't think it is reasonable to share his conclusion there is no God, however.

I've said this before but my opinion hasn't changed. The best alternative explanation to God I've ever heard was the idea we live in a multiverse. This is the belief that every universe that could ever have existed does exist. The odds of us existing in a universe that supports life can simply be attributed to chance in this worldview because we are only one universe in an infinite set of universes. The problem I have with this belief though is that it is no better than believing in a creator God who exists outside of space and time. It also seems less reasonable to believe in infinite multiverses because I fail to see how infinity is a real or meaningful concept. It's more of a symbol in math than an actual reality. It's similar to zero. Both infinity and zero are useful symbols in math but they're not literally real. That's harder to explain to most people.

For these reasons I do not think that a belief in a creator God or gods is at all extraordinary. If it were then I would only have to point to the universe as my evidence. I can point to human creations as my reason.The belief that we randomly came into existence unaided by intelligent forces is an extraordinary belief. It just simply is.

I guess I probably should back up and re-examine some of my previous statements...

Am I asking what is God like? No. @Misanthrope is clearly right. Without any evidence of such a God we could create an endless number of speculations. Anyone who has heard the joke about the Flying Spaghetti Monster knows that this is true. What is it I am actually asking?

I'm simply asking, "Does God exist?"

Let's say for the sake of conversation we are defining "God" as an intelligent being who created our universe. This creator being could even be @weargon but I've yet to be convinced of this. He never explained to me why any intelligent being would create something as useless as Windows 95. I tend to believe a God that designed our universe should be able to answer this.

I previously said, "Religion probably existed because of stupid people. It must be that we've grown more intelligent as a species." I'm questioning the intelligence of people who started religion. I simply said they must have been stupid. I was assuming that if people had always been as intelligent as we are today we would never have had religion or a belief in God.

Afterwards, @gingerplum stepped in and said that calling people "stupid" wasn't fair and that religion was "ignorant". Ignorance simply means having a lack of knowledge or information. I assume she is claiming that we would not have religion if they had access to the same knowledge we have now.

Is it true that religion was created because of either a lack of intelligence or knowledge? I don't believe this could be the case. The reason I don't believe this could be true is because I know that Atheism is an old philosophy. It's not new. It's as old as religion. What's interesting though is that there were Ancient Greeks who actually conceived of the existence of atoms as far back as 500 BCE. Ancient Greeks used to also tell stories about invisible malevolent spirits that brought about disease. Could we have simply laughed at the Ancient Greeks and called them crazy for making up these stories? Yes. After all, what evidence did they have to believe in invisible things? Not a single shred of evidence. Their beliefs WERE NOT simply crazy beliefs though. In fact, it seems evident now that some of their beliefs actually turned out to be true. We know now that tiny particles called atoms do exist. We also know now that invisible beings that spread disease do actually exist. The only difference between now and then is that we don't call these tiny microorganisms "demons". We also wouldn't say that bacteria or viruses have personalities like we do.

Religion is much more than a placeholder for science. We could have all been like Euripides and simply denied the existence of supernatural beings and other such invisible things from the beginning. I think it's possible that the stories told by religion serve a purpose other than simply giving explanations for how the world works. These stories were also ways people shared wisdom. Myths and fables expressed truths that were often hard to fathom. They didn't have to literally be true to have truth. Religion was also vital in shaping culture and it often helped people form meaningful relationships. Knowledge alone could never have provide these things.

I think it's also possible that there were many people in history who simply had what you might call a supernatural experience. There are many things we simply do not understand. I have a few stories of my own that I could not simply answer with science. It is for this reason that I do not take the possibility of God or the so-called supernatural lightly. I don't blindly believe every story I hear. But I'm also far from simply claiming every story of the supernatural is impossible.

Does God exist? I guess after all I've heard and considered I would have to say it is highly possible.

 

[Dida]

If God exists, I hate him.

 

[gingerplum]

I previously said, "Religion probably existed because of stupid people. It must be that we've grown more intelligent as a species." I'm questioning the intelligence of people who started religion. I simply said they must have been stupid. I was assuming that if people had always been as intelligent as we are today we would never have had religion or a belief in God.

Afterwards, @gingerplum stepped in and said that calling people "stupid" wasn't fair and that religion was "ignorant". Ignorance simply means having a lack of knowledge or information. I assume she is claiming that we would not have religion if they had access to the same knowledge we have now.
[/QUOTE]

Whoa, you're misquoting me. I never said "religion was ignorant;" I suggested that people of ancient civilizations were scientifically ignorant, not necessarily stupid. I might scoff at religion, but even I'm not usually that disparaging.

 

[weargon]

The almighty creator has to resort to having his existence defended by a minority on suicide forums... I think that already gets the whole point across.

This is absolutely true. Extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence.

I fail to see how this statement supports a disbelief in God, however. After all, have you seen our universe? It's actually quite extraordinary. It's also evidence. What about the earth we're on and the biological lifeforms living on it? These things are all astounding. I can actually see them with my eyes. Aren't we also having a conversation right now about abstract topics? Yes, we are. Human minds are incredible. They're also evidence.

What's more amazing is that we are capable of talking about these things across great distances through the power of the internet. How do you suppose this technology is possible? I highly doubt you would be bold enough to claim it was due to random chance. We actually know this is stupid. We actually know how computers and the internet came into existence. They were designed and created by other intelligent beings who existed within our own universe. It wasn't random. We have evidence to support this belief because we have historical records to turn to. Where would we be today without Wikipedia?

Blah blah blah blah blah

Your level of ignorance is so amazing that it almost makes me want to believe in god because it's hard to believe such ignorance can occur naturally.

If computers were a self evolving and constantly changing life form, with records in in their schematics that demonstrates clearly how they evolved, your argument would be more valid. However, nothing in the world just "came into being" without a good scientific explanation. And sure you can use that argument on how we don't know how an organism went from point A.243125234 to point A.243125235, but the fact that we have so much evidence putting together the big picture makes your fantasy incomprehensible to anyone who knows how to use reason.

I was going to continue debunking your essay but this is a suicide forum and we have enough problems with motivation (thanks, "God"). So I think I'm just going to conclude you're a religious troll on here. You're putting too much effort into baiting suicidal people with false debates. Stick to baiting boys from your usual youth groups, pastor.

If you have a couple hours today, I hope you get a chance to listen to this debate. I'd be curious to hear your own thoughts about it.

Lol so you're curious to hear our thoughts about it, so you can try to convince us your fantasy is real? I'll give you points for effort in trying to make your first post sound neutral. What it should have been worded like is:

"I believe the universe was created by intelligent design and I will write pages and pages of arguments to try to convince you of the TRUTTHHH!!!"

 

[marcusuk63]

Thank God i`m an Atheist

 

[Jean Améry]

The almighty creator has to resort to having his existence defended by a minority on suicide forums... I think that already gets the whole point across.


Your level of ignorance is so amazing that it almost makes me want to believe in god because it's hard to believe such ignorance can occur naturally.

If computers were a self evolving and constantly changing life form, with records in in their schematics that demonstrates clearly how they evolved, your argument would be more valid. However, nothing in the world just "came into being" without a good scientific explanation. And sure you can use that argument on how we don't know how an organism went from point A.243125234 to point A.243125235, but the fact that we have so much evidence putting together the big picture makes your fantasy incomprehensible to anyone who knows how to use reason.

I was going to continue debunking your essay but this is a suicide forum and we have enough problems with motivation (thanks, "God"). So I think I'm just going to conclude you're a religious troll on here. You're putting too much effort into baiting suicidal people with false debates. Stick to baiting boys from your usual youth groups, pastor.



Lol so you're curious to hear our thoughts about it, so you can try to convince us your fantasy is real? I'll give you points for effort in trying to make your first post sound neutral. What it should have been worded like is:

"I believe the universe was created by intelligent design and I will write pages and pages of arguments to try to convince you of the TRUTTHHH!!!"

Trying to debate religious Eddy here is aking to carrying water to the sea: a useless effort as all these discussions are since theists and believers in the supernatural by definition opted for irrationality (belief is the opposite of knowledge) and are blind and deaf to any form of rational argument and request for empirical evidence of their extraordinary claims.

He even has the gall of claiming the atheistic position is that the universe came from nothing which is blatantly untrue (a singularity is not nothing and atheism by itself means nothing more than denial of the existence of a god or gods) and claims his 'conclusion' about the existence of god wasn't pre-conceived but actually sprang from carefully weighing the arguments in this debate... To top it of he rehashed the 'god of the gaps' pseudo-argument: because science isn't yet able to explain everything god therefore must exist. Of course this does not follow at all. 'Illogical captain' as Spock would say.

'We make complex stuff therefore all complex stuff must have been made by a sort of super-human, the universe is so remarkable and complex, I'm so smart I actually understand this while ignorant atheists don't and forget probability and the completely unproven hypothesis of the multiverse, science is imperfect and can't explain every single thing in reality = god exists'. That's the gist of religious Eddy's long-winded attempt at conversion of us dimwitted atheists. There's nothing even remotely original here: he just repeats what smarter individuals than him have concocted to justify their irrational need to believe and abject worship of absurd religious delusions.

Regardless of the fact that there is zero evidence for the existence of god: the whole concept is not even consistent with reality. If god exists and is all-knowing and all-powerful he is responsible for all the misery on earth including the pain of those on this forum. Yet theists claim their god is all-good... Clearly he doesn't exist or he isn't all-knowing, all-powerful or all-good or there wouldn't be so much unnecessary and unjust suffering or rather none at all. Epicurus was quite right.

If nature was created the creator must have been an idiot given the struggle for life (why create something only to have it destroyed by another creation which in turn will be destroyed?) and the sheer brutality of mere survival aswell as how vulnerable all life is. Not to mention that it's a stone cold fact life evolved through trial and error and most experiments (species) simply don't exist anymore. That's how bloody well he 'made' them, this 'intelligent designer' of yours.

This sums it up nicely: .

Do tell us Eddy: how is all the misery on earth and the injustice and futility of it all even remotely commensurate with your delusion of an intelligent designer? Why are babies born with limbs missing, Down syndrome or an open back if a superior designer made life? Why is nature a slaughterhouse where one animal is the grave of thousands of others? Why do people get depressed and suffer so much they end their existence? Why do disease and death exist?

The idea that a god made this entire universe merely to amuse himself is abhorrent: if god exists he is the supreme sadist and the torturer and murderer of all life.

 

[tomz323]

I fucking hope not or I'm going to hell, as we all are.

My thought exactly

 

[marcusuk63]

The number of bacteria on our planet is estimated to be five million trillion trillion - that's a five with 30 zeroes after it.
The number of animal species on Earth is estimated at 8.7 million.
There are 60,000 species of trees in the world.
7 million species of beetles, insects, and terrestrial arthropods .
391,000 species of vascular plants .
you know where i`m going with this .....

 

[About_to_Go]

My thought exactly

I think this is the reason that a lot of people are religious—fear. It's the reasoning behind some intelligent people's rationale (see: Pascal's Wager and the video at the end of my post).

My mother grew up in a strict religious family and has been terrified of dying all of her life due to her not being baptized or never having literally spoken to God. This is ridiculous and unnecessary. It's ironic how her belief in God has her wishing she never dies, while my disbelief in God holds no fear over me and I actually welcome death.

 

[Final Escape]

I think yes, although many people have been pulled away from God. It's really been destructive to humanity. Because I didn't believe in God I decided to abort all of my children. My excuse was, I could not afford to have kids, I was promiscuous, the fathers would be unwilling, unable, to provide. I was too selfish to give up for adoption but that would have given my kids the best shot in a two parent intact stable home. Single motherhood disadvantages kids and puts them at much higher risk of abuse, neglect, poverty, behavioral, psychological problems. I grew up in single mom home and I was traumatized pretty good. I struggled a lot from the get go. Sorry went off on tangent.

 

[NOT]

I really hope he doesn't exist because when I die, I wanna really die, like non existence, for ever and ever. Not, being born again coming out from women's vagina, covered in blood, sweat and tears.

 

[justanotherday]

Trying to debate religious Eddy here is aking to carrying water to the sea: a useless effort as all these discussions are since theists and believers in the supernatural by definition opted for irrationality (belief is the opposite of knowledge) and are blind and deaf to any form of rational argument and request for empirical evidence of their extraordinary claims.

He even has the gall of claiming the atheistic position is that the universe came from nothing which is blatantly untrue (a singularity is not nothing and atheism by itself means nothing more than denial of the existence of a god or gods) and claims his 'conclusion' about the existence of god wasn't pre-conceived but actually sprang from carefully weighing the arguments in this debate... To top it of he rehashed the 'god of the gaps' pseudo-argument: because science isn't yet able to explain everything god therefore must exist. Of course this does not follow at all. 'Illogical captain' as Spock would say.

'We make complex stuff therefore all complex stuff must have been made by a sort of super-human, the universe is so remarkable and complex, I'm so smart I actually understand this while ignorant atheists don't and forget probability and the completely unproven hypothesis of the multiverse, science is imperfect and can't explain every single thing in reality = god exists'. That's the gist of religious Eddy's long-winded attempt at conversion of us dimwitted atheists. There's nothing even remotely original here: he just repeats what smarter individuals than him have concocted to justify their irrational need to believe and abject worship of absurd religious delusions.

Regardless of the fact that there is zero evidence for the existence of god: the whole concept is not even consistent with reality. If god exists and is all-knowing and all-powerful he is responsible for all the misery on earth including the pain of those on this forum. Yet theists claim their god is all-good... Clearly he doesn't exist or he isn't all-knowing, all-powerful or all-good or there wouldn't be so much unnecessary and unjust suffering or rather none at all. Epicurus was quite right.

If nature was created the creator must have been an idiot given the struggle for life (why create something only to have it destroyed by another creation which in turn will be destroyed?) and the sheer brutality of mere survival aswell as how vulnerable all life is. Not to mention that it's a stone cold fact life evolved through trial and error and most experiments (species) simply don't exist anymore. That's how bloody well he 'made' them, this 'intelligent designer' of yours.

This sums it up nicely: .

Do tell us Eddy: how is all the misery on earth and the injustice and futility of it all even remotely commensurate with your delusion of an intelligent designer? Why are babies born with limbs missing, Down syndrome or an open back if a superior designer made life? Why is nature a slaughterhouse where one animal is the grave of thousands of others? Why do people get depressed and suffer so much they end their existence? Why do disease and death exist?

The idea that a god made this entire universe merely to amuse himself is abhorrent: if god exists he is the supreme sadist and the torturer and murderer of all life.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

There's no such thing.