Does anyone else wonder if this is all a dream?

[Homo erectus]

Once I had a dream where I died and entered the spirit world/realm (I think)

I have never entered a spiritual realm, or been wandering as spirit. I always woke up before I could have died, like before hitting something when falling from height. What is the spiritual realm like?

 

[ijustwishtodie]

"The cradle rocks above an abyss, and common sense tells us that our existence is but a brief crack of light between two eternities of darkness. Although the two are identical twins, man, as a rule, views the prenatal abyss with more calm than the one he is heading for"
- Vladimir Nabokov

That quote is why I used the word "crack" in my post to describe life. I really like this quote though I do think that it's a bit inaccurate when it says "between two eternities of darkness". If the first eternity was darkness (which I wish it was), then all of us would have been permanently unborn as infinity has no limits. I do believe that after death lies an eternity of non existence but the first "eternity" is just merely a large finite amount of time

What's the point of experiencing life? Personally, I think I would've been okay with never even being born at all.

There isn't any point, at least not any objective one. Thinking about this from a non religious perspective, you were merely born against your will because two people fucked each other. You weren't born on this planet with a purpose to fulfill as there was no you before your birth.

You can make your own reasons for wanting to live life but these reasons aren't objective reasons at all. They're subjective. Though I believe that it's all meaningless in the long run anyway. In 150 years time maximum, nobody will even know you

 

[DarkRange55]

I guess the meaning of life, and like why did this all happen. Like what's the end goal? If it's just for the experience, then I would've preferred to never even have existed at all.

First, what does @Pluto think?

 

[sserafim]

That quote is why I used the word "crack" in my post to describe life. I really like this quote though I do think that it's a bit inaccurate when it says "between two eternities of darkness". If the first eternity was darkness (which I wish it was), then all of us would have been permanently unborn as infinity has no limits. I do believe that after death lies an eternity of non existence but the first "eternity" is just merely a large finite amount of time

There isn't any point, at least not any objective one. Thinking about this from a non religious perspective, you were merely born against your will because two people fucked each other. You weren't born on this planet with a purpose to fulfill as there was no you before your birth.

You can make your own reasons for wanting to live life but these reasons aren't objective reasons at all. They're subjective. Though I believe that it's all meaningless in the long run anyway. In 150 years time maximum, nobody will even know you

I also believed that (my) existence itself was pointless because I didn't see an end goal in sight. Like what do you gain or achieve out of existing? Some people say it's just for the experience, like I mentioned in my previous post, but I don't believe that. You're going to die anyways in the end, because it's inevitable. Death is the destination for everyone, the grim reaper calls and takes us all

 

[DarkRange55]

That quote is why I used the word "crack" in my post to describe life. I really like this quote though I do think that it's a bit inaccurate when it says "between two eternities of darkness". If the first eternity was darkness (which I wish it was), then all of us would have been permanently unborn as infinity has no limits. I do believe that after death lies an eternity of non existence but the first "eternity" is just merely a large finite amount of time

There isn't any point, at least not any objective one. Thinking about this from a non religious perspective, you were merely born against your will because two people fucked each other. You weren't born on this planet with a purpose to fulfill as there was no you before your birth.

You can make your own reasons for wanting to live life but these reasons aren't objective reasons at all. They're subjective. Though I believe that it's all meaningless in the long run anyway. In 150 years time maximum, nobody will even know you

It's crazy to think that there are different degrees of infinity.
I think its more so an expression because its incomprehensible

 

[sserafim]

It's crazy to think that there are different degrees of infinity.
I think its more so an expression because its incomprehensible

What's the point of existence if it won't have mattered anyways?

 

[DarkRange55]

I also believed that (my) existence itself was pointless because I didn't see an end goal in sight. Like what do you gain or achieve out of existing? Some people say it's just for the experience, like I mentioned in my previous post, but I don't believe that. You're going to die anyways in the end, because it's inevitable. Death is the destination for everyone, the grim reaper calls and takes us all

Thats what makes life valuable and precious. If it was eternal, it would be different. It also puts urgency on things.

What's the point of existence if it won't have mattered anyways?

importance is an evaluator-specific term.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I also believed that (my) existence itself was pointless because I didn't see an end goal in sight. Like what do you gain or achieve out of existing? You're going to die anyways in the end, because it's inevitable. Death is the destination for everyone, grim reaper calls and takes us all

There is no end goal. You gain nothing by existing. Like I said, your existence will be forgotten about in 150 years maximum. Nobody will even know about you. You exist for a finite amount of time and then you die. That's it. People like to think that their lives matter but that's just the condition of the human ego. Since you're an antinatalist, you should know about the human ego firsthand by seeing people talk about "leaving a legacy" in their bloodline by procreating and so forth. Nobody really matters in the end and I think that's a good thing otherwise it'd be a big burden

 

[DarkRange55]

I guess the meaning of life, and like why did this all happen. Like what's the end goal? If it's just for the experience, then I would've preferred to never even have existed at all.

Everything that can exist does exist.

Regarding multiverse theory, I am not a fan of the version that says that the universe splits every time you measure a probabilistic outcome. That is even more a case of the tail wagging the dog than the classical quantum theory that says that the wave function collapses when it is observed.

By multiverse I mean a Multiverse where everything that can exist always exists.

In that case all possible outcomes always exist and when you make an observation or measurement you are merely determining which thread within the multiverse this particular thread of your consciousness finds itself on. Consider two entangled photons where they will be guaranteed to have opposite spins but quantum mechanics says their spins are not predetermined. In my version of multiverse theory, entanglement makes total sense – if you measure one photon and find out that you are in a universe where it is spin up, of course in that universe the other one is spin down – no spooky action at a distance needed all.

Mathematically this produces the same results as classical quantum theory so there is no physical evidence for or against it relative to regular quantum theory. However it explains anthropocentric fine tuning, the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics, entanglement, and wave function collapse all with a single mechanism that provides logical, intuitive explanations rather than needing ad hoc assumptions, so in that sense it is simpler than the other theories that produce similar mathematical results.

I guess the meaning of life, and like why did this all happen. Like what's the end goal? If it's just for the experience, then I would've preferred to never even have existed at all.

Evolution has no goal. Do you mean whats the goal for humanity?

 

[sserafim]

Everything that can exist does exist.

Regarding multiverse theory, I am not a fan of the version that says that the universe splits every time you measure a probabilistic outcome. That is even more a case of the tail wagging the dog than the classical quantum theory that says that the wave function collapses when it is observed.

By multiverse I mean a Multiverse where everything that can exist always exists.

In that case all possible outcomes always exist and when you make an observation or measurement you are merely determining which thread within the multiverse this particular thread of your consciousness finds itself on. Consider two entangled photons where they will be guaranteed to have opposite spins but quantum mechanics says their spins are not predetermined. In my version of multiverse theory, entanglement makes total sense – if you measure one photon and find out that you are in a universe where it is spin up, of course in that universe the other one is spin down – no spooky action at a distance needed all.

Mathematically this produces the same results as classical quantum theory so there is no physical evidence for or against it relative to regular quantum theory. However it explains anthropocentric fine tuning, the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics, entanglement, and wave function collapse all with a single mechanism that provides logical, intuitive explanations rather than needing ad hoc assumptions, so in that sense it is simpler than the other theories that produce similar mathematical results.

Evolution has no goal. Do you mean whats the goal for humanity?

Goal of experiencing life. Like what's the point of all of this? So much pain and suffering for what? Personally, I would've preferred to never have existed at all. I don't think I would have missed out on anything if I hadn't been born and experienced life

 

[DarkRange55]

Why does the universe need to experience itself so much? What's the point of all of this? What's the point of things to exist? Why were they brought into existence?

In the anime Ergo Proxy, "A universe without perception is like a stack of rotting books, never to be opened."

The simplest explanation for what we see around us is that everything that can exist always exists, so naturally we find ourselves in reality that can support perception.
My suspicion is that simpler universes are at least as common as complex universes ( I would say more, except that both may occur in the same class of infinities, and hence mathematically be equally common).
In this case, many universes that lack perception will be much simpler than stacks of rotting books.

To me, a stack of never-to-be-opened rotting booksimplies that there is knowledge waiting to be discovered but never is discovered.
This seems like a borderline case of complexity of a universe, so while it might exist, I would think that it would be the exception rather than the rule.

Goal of experiencing life. Like personally I would've preferred to never have existed at all. I don't think I would have missed out on anything if I hadn't been born and experienced life

What that means is up to you. Life is what you make it and how you spend your limited time here. Enjoy it while you can. For some it's the pursuit of knowledge and self discovery. Some see it as a test for the next world. Some choose to be hedonistic and pursue pleasure. Some find only pain and torment. It is up to you to make your own meaning and find your own way.

 

[sserafim]

In the anime Ergo Proxy, "A universe without perception is like a stack of rotting books, never to be opened."

The simplest explanation for what we see around us is that everything that can exist always exists, so naturally we find ourselves in reality that can support perception.
My suspicion is that simpler universes are at least as common as complex universes ( I would say more, except that both may occur in the same class of infinities, and hence mathematically be equally common).
In this case, many universes that lack perception will be much simpler than stacks of rotting books.

To me, a stack of never-to-be-opened rotting booksimplies that there is knowledge waiting to be discovered but never is discovered.
This seems like a borderline case of complexity of a universe, so while it might exist, I would think that it would be the exception rather than the rule.

What that means is up to you. Life is what you make it and how you spend your limited time here. Enjoy it while you can. For some it's the pursuit of knowledge and self discovery. Some see it as a test for the next world. Some choose to be hedonistic and pursue pleasure. Some find only pain and torment. It is up to you to make your own meaning and find your own way.

Do you think that the simpler universes have life as well?

 

[DarkRange55]

Do you think that the simpler universes have life as well?

Everything that can exist always exists, and the set of all things that can exist should properly be called the Omniverse. However we do not know whether what can exist forms a continuum, in which case the multiverse is the same as the Omniverse, or whether existences cluster, in which case our local cluster is the multi-verse and the set of all clusters is the Omniverse (and there may be levels of hierarchy in between).

 

[Forever Sleep]

As in- our real bodies are somewhere else asleep? What are they doing for things like food etc? Or, do those bodies not need food? Is our sense of time different? Why would we have death here? Is that us waking up in the 'real' world? I guess I just don't see why we'd have these sorts of bodies if this was a simulation. Are we expected to benefit from feeling pain etc in this world? Why would we require that though- if our 'real' bodies aren't human? Or, are they human and they're being artificially kept alive- some Matrix-esk type set up?

Is it the same deal for animals? There are other beings controlling everything from ants to hamsters to giraffes some place else? Do they look the same in that other place?!! Billions of little ants with VR headsets controlling the ants on earth? How cute!

Honestly, I think it's just another story we tell ourselves because we don't want to accept that this flesh and bone might just be it. That we aren't so very different from all animal life. We just happen to have brains that can think about this stuff. If we were a bird, we'd be able to fly. We just happen to be able to think, question and imagine. But, there again- who knows? I guess it's possible. We clearly got lumbered with the pre-release versions that were still full of bugs.

 

[kelimackie]

I used to think when I was a kid that this is a simulation designed to make me kill myself, everybody is not real and everything that happens to me is designed to make me kill myself, that's the goal.

 

[DarkRange55]

As in- our real bodies are somewhere else asleep? What are they doing for things like food etc? Or, do those bodies not need food? Is our sense of time different? Why would we have death here? Is that us waking up in the 'real' world? I guess I just don't see why we'd have these sorts of bodies if this was a simulation. Are we expected to benefit from feeling pain etc in this world? Why would we require that though- if our 'real' bodies aren't human? Or, are they human and they're being artificially kept alive- some Matrix-esk type set up?

Is it the same deal for animals? There are other beings controlling everything from ants to hamsters to giraffes some place else? Do they look the same in that other place?!! Billions of little ants with VR headsets controlling the ants on earth? How cute!

Honestly, I think it's just another story we tell ourselves because we don't want to accept that this flesh and bone might just be it. That we aren't so very different from all animal life. We just happen to have brains that can think about this stuff. If we were a bird, we'd be able to fly. We just happen to be able to think, question and imagine. But, there again- who knows? I guess it's possible. We clearly got lumbered with the pre-release versions that were still full of bugs.

It could be a simulation that running on autopilot. It could be a simulation of the future to study humans of the past. The most convincing argument I've heard for the hypothesis is that once we are able to create one here or at least large-scale VR, then it lends credence that it's a valid possibility. Almost like proof of concept.

Humans could be in cryostasis or something similar or no physical bodies at all - it could be god's dream, someone's dream, ect.

Could be solipsistic and we are all creations of your mind. we could all be one collective consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.

I don't think it's generally useful to think in these terms so I don't entertain it much but it is a possibility and an interesting thought experiment.

.

Like that this world is a dream that we're hallucinating (like Alice in Borderland), and that when we wake up, we'll go back to the real world?

>> if we are all just a construct of a dream or a simulation, and that the self is in illusion.
Yes, but even if I am an illusion or a dream, I still exist as a dream or as an illusion.
Thus although I may not know the form of my existence, I know that I exist.

 

[RemainingDubious]

Yeah, this has got to be the worst dream i've ever had.

i miss Morpheus



Daniel sucks



Sometimes i think i might be dead and in hell already. Would i even know

i think had three operations? god knows how many times i've attempted to ctb and have been near death afew times

For all i know i might not have really survived one of them events or i could be in a.coma.

 

[EyesOfNight]

I don't understand how that has any significance over the me that I currently am.

If it's a dream then the entity that wakes up will no longer be me. I only exist here. Whatever I was will be part of that entity but it won't be me.

 

[DarkRange55]

@sserafim
Your existential dread

This is probably my favorite short story, and Ashley gives Hope to the cosmic existential dread

 

[Homo erectus]

I don't understand how that has any significance over the me that I currently am.

If it's a dream then the entity that wakes up will no longer be me. I only exist here. Whatever I was will be part of that entity but it won't be me.

Some people say they have solved difficult real life problems in dreams. Maybe what's happening in this dream will inform the waking person. Any this dream might be partly shaped by events in the waking world.

Yeah, this has got to be the worst dream i've ever had.

i miss Morpheus

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Daniel sucks

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Sometimes i think i might be dead and in hell already. Would i even know

i think had three operations? god knows how many times i've attempted to ctb and have been near death afew times

For all i know i might not have really survived one of them events or i could be in a.coma.

Isn't "life is all suffering" a nice way of saying this is hell?

 

[RemainingDubious]

I don't believe that life is a dream. Life is very much real. Suffering is real. Life is just a short infinitesimal crack between a super large finite amount of time (i.e. before birth) and an infinite amount of time (i.e. after death)

Is it not possible we could be dead and we haven't realised yet? This could be infinite for us. we haven't got to a ridiculous age yet to discover if we're trapped here. We might need to get to 100+ to realise we're not gonna die since we already did

 

[Forever Sleep]

It could be a simulation that running on autopilot. It could be a simulation of the future to study humans of the past. The most convincing argument I've heard for the hypothesis is that once we are able to create one here or at least large-scale VR, then it lends credence that it's a valid possibility. Almost like proof of concept.

Humans could be in cryostasis or something similar or no physical bodies at all - it could be god's dream, someone's dream, ect.

Could be solipsistic and we are all creations of your mind. we could all be one collective consciousness experiencing itself subjectively.

I don't think it's generally useful to think in these terms so I don't entertain it much but it is a possibility and an interesting thought experiment.

>> if we are all just a construct of a dream or a simulation, and that the self is in illusion.
Yes, but even if I am an illusion or a dream, I still exist as a dream or as an illusion.
Thus although I may not know the form of my existence, I know that I exist.

I guess anything is possible and I guess it's interesting to think about. Still- ultimately, this reality is seemingly based on cause and effect. If you start lapsing with personal hygienne, don't brush your teeth and eat lot of sugar- chances are, decay will set in at some point.

You can tell yourself it's all a simulation. This pain isn't actually real. The resulting sepsis isn't real either. Whatever this is- whether it's a simulation, whether we get one shot at life and then out, whether we've all lived countless lives before, whether we are a part of one giant being- what difference does it make when you have tooth ache?

Maybe it influences where we end up after life is over. Maybe we are supposed to be achieving specific things even but, I'm not sure it affects our day to day problematic or pleasurable lives.

But, that's a really interesting idea- that future humans are playing an older simulation of human life. Doesn't include animals by the sounds of it. Do they only exist in this simulation? I really liked the idea of little ants playing ants or bees playing bees. That would be even funnier. What's the aim of the game? Try not to destroy the earth over the coming decades...

The idea that nothing but ourselves is real though always strikes me as so egotistical. I'm sure we experience life in unique ways but to think everything has either been invented for our benefit or, somehow, we've hallucinated everything and everyone around us just baffles me. If we were really that clever and imaginative- wouldn't we be living the life of Riley? Unless it was unconscious I suppose, like a living dream. Still seems weird though.

 

[DarkRange55]

I guess anything is possible and I guess it's interesting to think about. Still- ultimately, this reality is seemingly based on cause and effect. If you start lapsing with personal hygienne, don't brush your teeth and eat lot of sugar- chances are, decay will set in at some point.

You can tell yourself it's all a simulation. This pain isn't actually real. The resulting sepsis isn't real either. Whatever this is- whether it's a simulation, whether we get one shot at life and then out, whether we've all lived countless lives before, whether we are a part of one giant being- what difference does it make when you have tooth ache?

Maybe it influences where we end up after life is over. Maybe we are supposed to be achieving specific things even but, I'm not sure it affects our day to day problematic or pleasurable lives.

But, that's a really interesting idea- that future humans are playing an older simulation of human life. Doesn't include animals by the sounds of it. Do they only exist in this simulation? I really liked the idea of little ants playing ants or bees playing bees. That would be even funnier. What's the aim of the game? Try not to destroy the earth over the coming decades...

The idea that nothing but ourselves is real though always strikes me as so egotistical. I'm sure we experience life in unique ways but to think everything has either been invented for our benefit or, somehow, we've hallucinated everything and everyone around us just baffles me. If we were really that clever and imaginative- wouldn't we be living the life of Riley? Unless it was unconscious I suppose, like a living dream. Still seems weird though.

I think the concept of "we are all one collective consciousness experiencing itself subjectively"
a valid point of view is that we are all the omniverse experiencing itself.

Does it change anything? Maybe from a perspective it helps people make sense of the horrors of life in a more comforting way (for some).

I assume animals and quasars and dark energy and distant stars would all just be part of the simulation.

Aim of the game? Study different possible outcomes, entertainment, sociological experiment, ect. Fuck knows

Its not my cup of tea…

 

[Pluto]

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think the concept of "we are all one collective consciousness experiencing itself subjectively"
a valid point of view is that we are all the omniverse experiencing itself.

Does it change anything? Maybe from a perspective it helps people make sense of the horrors of life in a more comforting way (for some).

I assume animals and quasars and dark energy and distant stars would all just be part of the simulation.

Aim of the game? Study different possible outcomes, entertainment, sociological experiment, ect. Fuck knows

Its not my cup of tea…

Not sure why people would find that comforting really. They're homeless and suffering with ill health while other people are on luxury yachts sailing around the world drinking champagne and living the high life. Wouldn't they just wonder why they got all the shit in life to deal with? Do you suppose they feel all that connected with those rich folk? Why would it comfort them that we are all one being when their current reality absolutely sucks?

But then, yeah you do get the odd martyr out there who, I don't know really- thinks they're going to be rewarded for their suffering one day maybe. Thinks they're taking one for the team maybe. Maybe that they've been especially selected to get all the bad shit in life because- they're strong enough and special enough to take it.

I had a friend who said, when she was younger, she actually wanted a difficult life because it seemed more pious. You've got to love religion- make people yearn for suffering in order to 'prove' their strength. Seems like subjugating propoganda to me... Be grateful that you're toiling in the hot sun to bring those crops in. God will love you more.

 

[DarkRange55]

Not sure why people would find that comforting really. They're homeless and suffering with ill health while other people are on luxury yachts sailing around the world drinking champagne and living the high life. Wouldn't they just wonder why they got all the shit in life to deal with? Do you suppose they feel all that connected with those rich folk? Why would it comfort them that we are all one being when their current reality absolutely sucks?

But then, yeah you do get the odd martyr out there who, I don't know really- thinks they're going to be rewarded for their suffering one day maybe. Thinks they're taking one for the team maybe. Maybe that they've been especially selected to get all the bad shit in life because- they're strong enough and special enough to take it.

I had a friend who said, when she was younger, she actually wanted a difficult life because it seemed more pious. You've got to love religion- make people yearn for suffering in order to 'prove' their strength. Seems like subjugating propoganda to me... Be grateful that you're toiling in the hot sun to bring those crops in. God will love you more.

Just people trying to make sense of life. Both conspiracy theories and religion are appealing to people because instead of a cold, random, dispassionate, chaotic universe its more comforting to believe that there is a superpower group of people or being that controls everything and plans everything an worries about what they think.

Some people say they have solved difficult real life problems in dreams. Maybe what's happening in this dream will inform the waking person. Any this dream might be partly shaped by events in the waking world.



Isn't "life is all suffering" a nice way of saying this is hell?

I don't think life is all suffering personally. I think it's a facet of life. I'm sure it might be for some people…

 

[Pluto]

Just people trying to make sense of life. Both conspiracy theories and religion are appealing to people because instead of a cold, random, dispassionate, chaotic universe its more comforting to believe that there is a superpower group of people or being that controls everything and plans everything an worries about what they think.

I don't think life is all suffering personally. I think it's a facet of life. I'm sure it might be for some people…

The key with religionists and conspiracists is the ambition to overlay a simple, dualistic narrative. (Good vs. evil, us vs. them. God vs. Satan, etc.) The world is made up of grey areas which cause us confusion and cognitive dissonance, so we are attracted to the comfort of such ultra-simple narratives and will gladly ignore the contradictions, like the impossibility of even defining good or evil in absolute terms. More intelligent people will suffer because they see the nuance in life, and also the harm caused by stupid people trying to violently impose their simplistic views of the world.

As for suffering in Buddhism, the context for the first noble truth relates to the allegedly deluded foundation of normal human life, based on striving in futility to meaningfully satisfy the whims of a self that turns out to not exist.

 

[DarkRange55]

The key with religionists and conspiracists is the ambition to overlay a simple, dualistic narrative. (Good vs. evil, us vs. them. God vs. Satan, etc.) The world is made up of grey areas which cause us confusion and cognitive dissonance, so we are attracted to the comfort of such ultra-simple narratives and will gladly ignore the contradictions, like the impossibility of even defining good or evil in absolute terms. More intelligent people will suffer because they see the nuance in life, and also the harm caused by stupid people trying to violently impose their simplistic views of the world.

As for suffering in Buddhism, the context for the first noble truth relates to the allegedly deluded foundation of normal human life, based on striving in futility to meaningfully satisfy the whims of a self that turns out to not exist.

Yeah, the world's black and white. It's just shades of grey. There's just people and their shit.

Personally I think its more useful generally to think in terms of dichotomy like harmony and disharmony or something. Let good and evil take a backseat once in a while, but thats just me. I would guess its basically a matter of psychology inherent in the structure of the sapient mind in general whether that's our minds or god's, if he exists. Like the concept of right and left or empty and full or whatever.
Dichotomies are generally too simple for the complexities of our universe (even just one universe).
Gradients is often a good description when several things have simple interactions.
Ecologies is generally a good term when lots of things have complex interactions.

I guess the meaning of life, and like why did this all happen. Like what's the end goal? If it's just for the experience, then I would've preferred to never even have existed at all.

Why does it have to have a reason?

 

[Placo]

This topic reminded me of the movie Inception where a character kills herself convinced that she was in a dream and that only by dying could she wake up.

 

[sserafim]

Why does it have to have a reason?

I don't know actually. If there's no reason, then life just seems like a lot of struggle for nothing. All this suffering, and for what?