J

JWL

Arcanist
Jan 15, 2019
460
The examples of old advertisements depict physicians making health claims that were patently false--for example that there weren't cases of throat irritation from cigarette smoking. As early as the 1920's British and American epidemiological journals were publishing sharp rises in incidence of throat and upper bronchial irritation statistically among smokers.

And the anti-anxiety claims are representative of classic short-term reasoning fallacies. Medical scientist were also publishing papers showing the supposed calming effects of smoking were very short-lived, dissipating quickly once the active compounds worked through users' systems--on the order of minutes to an hour--compelling many to use more and more cigarettes until the anti-anxiety intervention blossomed for most into an addiction.

Other medical evidence was published as early as the '30's about the association between smoking and hypertension, peripheral neuropathy, and, notably, sexual dysfunction (especially in men). Scientists knew cigarettes only appeared to relax people but that the physiological evidence was to the contrary (increased BP, constriction of blood vessels, capillary permeability changes).

Last, smoking for decades before the US government mandated a warning label was also scientifically linked to other disease prevalence besides cancer. Yet doctors were still advising patients to smoke because many of them were just as duped as the general public by the financial interest groups promoting smoking.

Similarly poor reasoning underlies the psychiatric (and clinical psychological) and psychotropic pharmaceutical industries. It's even worse among these because, unlike with nicotine..., mental health "scholars" don't even know what the physical substrates implicated in their pathology models are. Yet nearly everyone bandies about terms like "mentally ill" and "crazy" and "sick" as if these words corresponded to scientific truths.

Sorry for long reply.


It was a bit long. We tend to have short life spans on SS...:-)
And the anti-anxiety claims are representative of classic short-term reasoning fallacies.

Rubbish! I smoked 60 a day in my mispent youth. I hate smoking now, but can also say smoking gave me a degree of relaxation and concentration that I've rarely had since.
 
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FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782
It was a bit long. We tend to have short life spans on SS...:-)


Rubbish! I smoked 60 a day in my mispent youth. I hate smoking now, but can also say smoking gave me a degree of relaxation and concentration that I've rarely had since.

Thankfully, there's no obligation to read anything on SS... :-)

As for the "rubbish" claim, that's not how valid statistical claims work--on a sample of one or a few...
 
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J

JWL

Arcanist
Jan 15, 2019
460
Thankfully, there's no obligation to read anything on SS... :-)

As for the "rubbish" claim, that's not how valid statistical claims work--on a sample of one or a few...

You didn't present valid scientific data.

A sample of 'one or a few' is deception...
 
FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782
You didn't present valid scientific data.

A sample of 'one or a few' is deception...


What an ironic implicit argument. The "valid scientific data" proving cigarette smoke is causally related to cancer, cardiovascular disease, and neuropathy, among other pathologies, is among the strongest in the history of medicine. In contrast, to date, as psychiatrists and medical specialists admit, there is no specific physical evidence of causal neuropathology that can be said is the cause of "depression." And "a sample of one or a few" is not a "deception." It's a valid critique of arguments of the type you offered, "I did X and I'm OK, therefore X is not harmful."

This isn't YouTube. I'm not here to fight. But I will challenge the claims that "mental illness" (and other similar terms) is specifically biologically caused and rigorously objectively characterized to justify the standing medical claims of disease.
 
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_milo

_milo

Member
Mar 16, 2019
65
Having any sort of want or desire to end your own life can only be described as ill.
 
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FTL.Wanderer

FTL.Wanderer

Enlightened
May 31, 2018
1,782
Having any sort of want or desire to end your own life can only be described as ill.

I respect your right to feel that. Really I do. One major problem, though, is using the impression of illness as justification for denying some citizens their civil rights, as happens during civil commitments. Another is the use of the impression (not the proof) of illness to silence otherwise valid debate--such as why wanting to be alive is "right" and not just common. Lots of other problems stemming from the perception of what causes mental health problems and the abuse of the concept of "ill" by those who want to distance themselves from partial responsibility, such as political and other leaders who seek impunity for legislation that's shown to be harmful to mental health. There are some good publications in psychiatry and medicine in general about how psychiatric diagnoses are culturally bound unlike diagnoses in other branches of medicine that depend on universal laboratory diagnostic criteria.
 
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Never Free

Never Free

Student
Feb 6, 2019
177
You can use rationality and logic to justify anything including homicide... Or genocide... (Well maybe not rape )
Yea, but you can pretty much frame anything to be "mental illness" by that logic.
 
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Never Free

Never Free

Student
Feb 6, 2019
177
I think mental illness is definitely a real, tangible problem for some people. I've met a lot of people who, from both my own observations and from what they themselves have told me, have brains that just don't function the way that they are supposed to. And the medications and therapy can work wonders for them sometimes. But I have also seen that mental health "professionals" are far too quick to attribute any variance in behavior to a mental disorder. There is a flat-out refusal to acknowledge the fact that suicidality and a negative outlook on life can be a rational and natural response to shitty circumstances. Most of the people that I've met being treated for "major depressive disorder" have really good reasons for not liking the world around them. They would almost have to be insane not to feel like shit. And I find it really fucking insulting and invalidating that society and the mental health industry would rather sweep these people under the rug by labeling them irrational and mentally ill, rather than accept that this world has an absurd number of problems and that life is not always such a grand fucking picnic. And even for the people who have genuine, neurochemical problems, the expert approach for treatment that I have seen from psychiatrists is still to just throw random medications at people and hope that something sticks. There's no careful diagnosis and precision treatment so I think calling psychiatry "science" or "modern medicine" is being overly generous.
The experience is real for sure. The problem is nobody knows who will respond the drugs how. They tend to be bandaids at best, marginally better than placeobo. You have to worry about long term adverse effects, and rebound. There can be build up trauma, nutrition, or underlining physical illness overlooked. However, short term pysch drugs have shown good results in certain people. Particularly mild sedatives short term for psychosis, just to help get a full nights sleep.
 
Redt2go

Redt2go

flower child
Jan 5, 2019
1,643
Yea, but you can pretty much frame anything to be "mental illness" by that logic.
Historically people have... Being gay used to be a mental illness in the dsm... Things are never black and white which is why people could argue all day about anything
 
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Never Free

Never Free

Student
Feb 6, 2019
177
Historically people have... Being gay used to be a mental illness in the dsm... Things are never black and white which is why people could argue all day about anything
True True. Only psychiatry has no bio tests. Also there's the issue of their theories being proven wrong. There's also the issue that there's no reliable difference in brain chemistry except for what the drugs cause. Yea, there's an issue the disorders are voted in, based on societal norms( hence being gay used to be included)
 
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Johnnythefox

Johnnythefox

Que sera sera
Nov 11, 2018
3,129
This sums it up for me.
9047
 
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T

time2go

Student
Mar 5, 2019
126
Not sure about this one. I've always had abit of anxiety and depressive phases, not sure of phases is the right word too use there. I've had huge breakdowns but I don't believe I'm mentally ill. But im 100% certain that I am traumatised by certain mistakes I've made in my life.
 
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V

Vegrau

Wizard
Nov 27, 2018
665
Of course not. To live is to die. Hankering, fearing over the subject is silly. Death should be celebrated. All existence tied to entropy. Like it or not everything will end. There's nothing wrong choosing to embrace it earlier. Consider the state and situation of the world we are in right now.
 
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Somnium

Somnium

Member
Mar 16, 2019
12
I don't think I have a mental illness, I just feel depressed sometimes...
 
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ShadowOfTheDay

ShadowOfTheDay

Hungry Ghost
Feb 14, 2019
331
Of course not. To live is to die. Hankering, fearing over the subject is silly. Death should be celebrated. All existence tied to entropy. Like it or not everything will end. There's nothing wrong choosing to embrace it earlier. Consider the state and situation of the world we are in right now.
Alright.
 
C

CTB-London

Student
Feb 26, 2019
160
I'm not mentally ill and have never been diagnosed as such.

I suffer from long term situational depression, in my case caused by the fact I hate being gay and it has ruined my quality of life throughout my adult life.

I can't be helped by medication or therapy and am now getting close to CTB.
 
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RainAndSadness

RainAndSadness

Administrator
Jun 12, 2018
2,135
I'm definitely mentally ill, yes. I'll admit that. And I don't think that's a bad thing. It also doesn't mean I have any less autonomy over my body and my life than anyone else. Our desire to leave is valid and I think mental illness should be considered as a legit reason for assisted suicide by euthanasia organizations. It sucks that they're reducing suffering only to physical pain, as if we're not struggling enough. Mental illness can cause as much pain as anything else. It can decrease the quality of someones life drastically and I totally understand why someone would leave for such reasons.
 
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N

NOT

Experienced
Apr 16, 2019
250
I am fuc.ed up like 3 sick persons combined.
I am just faking it until I manage to shutdown this body-computer.
 
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Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
Being out of formation doesn't mean one is off course. But if being out of synch with the society one lives in equates with being maladjusted or mentally ill, then yes, I am.

Frankly, my dears, I don't give a damn.
 
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IronTusk

IronTusk

Experienced
Apr 10, 2019
266
I am a contributor on a suicide forum :/
 
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S

Sunlight99

Member
Sep 20, 2018
52
I think I have PTSD or depression from childhood experiences. I haven't done everything normal people want to do in life, like have the wife, kids, picket fence house, vacations, car, etc... but I've come very far and it still doesn't get better and I don't want to spend another 40 years doing this. But I think growing up in a traumatizing environment did something to my brain because I remember being really different as a younger kid, and slowly being crushed. Maybe it's PTSD I don't know.
 
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J

JWL

Arcanist
Jan 15, 2019
460
I don't think I have a mental illness, I just feel depressed sometimes...


Yeah, but look at society, life, values today? Who wouldn't be depressed?
I am a contributor on a suicide forum :/

You mean you're sane??
I think I have PTSD or depression from childhood experiences. I haven't done everything normal people want to do in life, like have the wife, kids, picket fence house, vacations, car, etc... but I've come very far and it still doesn't get better and I don't want to spend another 40 years doing this. But I think growing up in a traumatizing environment did something to my brain because I remember being really different as a younger kid, and slowly being crushed. Maybe it's PTSD I don't know.


If your dream is white picket fences I'd definitly say you have PTSD.
 
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D

Deleted member 1768

Enlightened
Aug 15, 2018
1,107
On the one hand, humans (like any other animal) are "programed" by evolution to seek pleasure over pain, and survival over annihilation.
As such, suicidality must be a symptom of a malfunctioning brain, right?

On the other hand, suicide seems a perfectly rational option in some cases--not to mention desirable.

Just curious what others think.
Rapidly developing a psychiatric disorder called depression. No choice now. All doors have been closed to me. The only thing left is death. I shall have to leave a crippled son behind...
 
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ScorpiusDragon

ScorpiusDragon

Mage
Mar 25, 2019
593
I think "mentally ill" is often a label used by a profoundly sick society to gaslight a lot of people who see things the way they really are
 
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Weems

Weems

Experienced
May 5, 2019
204
The line between "disease" and "shit personality" is hard to draw. Suffice it to say something's always been off about me.
 
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Rainbowdreamer

Rainbowdreamer

Waiting for the bus in the rain (in the rain)
May 19, 2019
9
Super fucking mentally ill here. Borderline Personality Disorder with comorbid Bipolar II (superfun combo let me tell you) , ADHD, Intrusive Thought OCD, and generalized anxiety. Probably PTSD as well. There's some thought now that BPD is a form of CPTSD, so make of that what you will.

Mental illness touches every aspect of my life abs makes it complete and utter hell. It's why I need to ctb. I can't live like this any more. There's only so much one person can take.
 
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JadedGray

JadedGray

Life Eternal
Jul 24, 2018
991
I think it's too much of a grey area. I think when it gets to the point where it affects your life negatively then like a physical illness it could be seen as an illness of the mind. I don't really subscribe to psychology in general, so I don't pay attention to diagnoses like "mental illnesses" and "personality disorders". I've experienced firsthand the guess work involved. According to society I would be seen as "mentally ill" and my mindset negatively affects my life, so in that regard I could be seen as having a "mental illness".
 
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