Do you believe that suicide is a good idea just for you, or that it's a good idea for everyone?

[uk_buscatcher_522]

Hi all. I'm kinda interested in what the split here is like; personally, I'm very sympathetic to the view that the worst possible thing that could happen to a human is far, far worse than any of us can imagine. The hedonistic deck seems extremely strongly stacked against us - and there's no amount of pleasure/happiness/love that could possibly compare to even a 0.01% chance of extreme (torture-level) suffering. This leads to various views like negative utilitarianism (which I'm a bit sympathetic to) & suffering-focused ethics more broadly.

To me, at least, it seems that 99.99-100% of people have never experienced immense suffering, and that our views would change drastically if we actually knew what it felt like to e.g. be boiled alive. I think that experiencing horrific suffering of this kind would lead anyone to conclude that everything they cared about previously was pointless, and that the only real imperative is preventing the kind of suffering that they experienced. I think that there are tortures so bad that even a 0.001% chance of experiencing it would probably rationally warrant one to kill themselves to avoid that chance - but, of course, people have no clue how bad it can get & therefore don't realise this fact. It's also worth noting that our reasoning faculties evolved with the ultimate goal of remaining alive and reproducing, so of course it'd seem very counter-intuitive for us to conclude something like pro-mortalism. But, to me at least, it seems potentially correct.

 

[Marco77]

For all sentient animals.

 

[PlannedforPeru]

As much as I'd like to believe those who are content / happy / devoutly prolife are ignorant and have inadvertently derived privilege from it, I'm not going to try to be the one to deprive them of that as it really does nothing for me. Realistically the action ends up being a net negative with consideration to suffering as we aren't going to convince every person that the mechanisms which constitute our lives are flawed on a fundamental level.

To not go on too much of a tangent, in a realistic environment I won't and don't advocate for unconditional suicide as a solution. On the other hand, hypothetically if I was presented with a button for everyone to drop dead painlessly I would 100% press it.

 

[EmptyCurtainCall]

These are such extremes I really don't think suicide is simple enough to toss into a "would you rather" kind of format. Life and death is so nuanced. But i do think that stigma around suicide should be gone. I think religion has influenced us harshly. In many religions, ending your own life = damnation. Or some ppl just cant believe you'd have the nerve to take life into your own hands. How dare you?!?!? If someone wants to kill themselves, and it may sound crazy, i really don't think there's any reason to try to stop them. It's a wild take but i don't see a reason to jump between someone and final / eternal rest. You only live one time, and taking matters into your own hands isn't going to send you to hell, you won't regret it, you won't suffer any longer. Some ppl are so deeply scarred, hurt, and anxious, that in their eyes staying alive is the extreme worst. It's not anyone's job to brow beat them for getting relief. Assisted suicide kits should be made more readily available in the US, globally. It's not a right befitting anyone from here nor there, any more or less.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

It's a good idea for anyone LIKE me, at least as far as I'm aware. The world would be so much better if every evil person like me just killed themselves instead of harming innocents though I don't want to have to push anyone else to do it.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

I believe suffering doesn´t depend so much on external influences but mostly on the chemistry in our heads. If there is brightness in your head, you may loose your leg and you are still happy that you have one leg left. If there is darkness in your head, you may win a million euros but feel only sorrow what to do with the money.

Nature wants us do dissapear when our biological mission - reproduction and care of the brood - is accomplished, therefore we age. So I would say, for all old people suicide would be the solution and in accordance with nature.

 

[kat6]

I believe suffering doesn´t depend so much on external influences but mostly on the chemistry in our heads. If there is brightness in your head, you may loose your leg and you are still happy that you have one leg left. If there is darkness in your head, you may win a million euros but feel only sorrow what to do with the money.

Nature wants us do dissapear when our biological mission - reproduction and care of the brood - is accomplished, therefore we age. So I would say, for all old people suicide would be the solution and in accordance with nature.

This is so true… I know a guy who was a snowboarding instructor, basically lived for the sport, and was all about outdoorsy stuff. Real funny, positive guy. He was in a horrific car accident and was left permanently paralyzed from the neck down. He is still the most positive bloke ever. Always smiling, grateful for life.

I would never want to live like that. It sort of makes me feel like I'm even more of a piece of shit when I see people with lives so far worse than mine who are still so positive. I have no reason to be this much of a cloud of doom other than my brain.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm pro choice. It's up to the individual to decide whether their life is shit enough that they want to end it. That said, I lean towards antinatilism- seems fairer not to expose a being to the risk of it being shit to begin with. Once they're here though- it's up to them.

Promortilism in action is genocide. I don't support genocide. If some external event happened and all humans died or all humans went antinatilist though- I think that would be good for the rest of the planet.

 

[Reflection]

My personal problem(s) have nothing to do with innocent people that are content with their lives; Pro-mortalism sounds like a euphemism for something criminal.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I'm a pro mortalist. I believe that suicide is good for everybody and that it would be better if all sentient animals were to go extinct

 

[LunarLight]

I'm pro-choice. I believe most people do enjoy their lives and I respect that. I'd love to enjoy life as much as them. Just because my brain is broken and can't seem to be fixed doesn't mean everybody should die. No general statements.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

Logically I shouldn't care what another human does.

Wether an individual wants to live or die should be up to the individual. If someone wants to suffer and get old and suffer more in old age let them why would it matter to me?

This is a controlling slave prison world .they stole Our choice to exit this hell. They made nembutal, helping in suicide etc crimes

Every human and sentient animal would be better off in non-existence than in this horrible life . For example a billionaire could decide to drink nembutal today. Then tomorrow he would be not existing out of danger and note he would have died anyway so what is he missing?. But if he decides to live another day he gets a stroke doesn't even know who he is but is in constant pain and suffering which would have been avoided in non-existence

Anyone who defends this evil torture called life is misinformed.

Think about how horrific people's existence is who are in the worst 1000 lives on the planet . Any human can go into that situation of the worst lives . And there is no objective reason to take such risks. All the meaningless addictions they say are so good are not worth garbage much less suffering the most extreme pain and extreme torture.

Just another example . Saw a video where they showed feral cats household cats escaped and are wild . Each one of those cats tortures to death more than 400 small mammals per year. Multiply this by the trillions of predators that have lived torturing eating alive other animals to get an idea of the torture.Most animals died by being eaten alive. Most humans end up in nursing homes old suffering in pain

Life has tortured millions of trillions of sentient animals including billions of humans . Anyone who says some meaningless addiction is worth all the extreme torture is misinformed and keeping people in danger. Any human or other animal is in danger of suffering extreme torture any second they remain alive. And there is no objective reason for me to live another second . No one can convince me there is any reason why I have to live another minute or day

But the cat is "pretty" . Yeah to the mouse being played with and tortured it's like a giant tiger torturing you to Death.

 

[willitpass]

This is a pro-choice site. The people who are pro-mortalist are in the minority here. It is nobodies right to decide for someone else whether they should live or die. Your personal experiences should not dictate someone else's outcome, especially not in something as large and permanent as death. Suicide in someone who can make the rational decision to do so is their choice. "Suicide for everyone" is no longer suicide, that is mass genocide, and is the opposite of pro choice. People complain about pro-lifers choosing whether or not we can end our lives, deciding that everyone should die is quite actually the same sentiment but the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

[chester]

This is a controlling slave prison world .they stole Our choice to exit this hell. They made nembutal, helping in suicide etc crimes

As much as I might not like it, I do understand the logic behind it. Many people who failed at killing themselves were able to recover with time and proper help and are now able to have good lives. While this isn't possible for everyone, the assumption is that you can never be sure, so making suicide easier causes harm by robbing people of this chance.

Unpopular opinion: most of us here don't really know if our life truly can't get better. We choose to believe so, because it simplifies our situation and makes suicide justifiable. Of course there are people for whom it's obvious, e.g. if you have some incurable disease which will only progressively make your life worse or if some irreversible damage has been done in one way or another. Otherwise it's always a gamble, and the regulations are based on "better safe than sorry" assumption. It's hard to blame people for wanting you to get better rather than die.

That said, there should be some limits there. It's inhumane to keep someone who suffers alive until they die of old age, just because we don't like the idea of them dying. Frankly speaking, even if someone told me that in a couple of months I'll recover and be good as new, I'd still prefer dying over what I've already been through.

 

[Unspoken7612]

I despise pro-mortalism. As a position it is both intellectually and ethically bankrupt. Much worse than pro-life (in a suicide context). The sheer arrogance to think you can tell someone who wants to live that they should actually be obliterated is despicable.

I'm pro-choice. I don't think suicidality is really about some sort of objective quality of life. It's about subjective well-being. Some people who have been through much worse things than me, and continue to live in worse situations than me, nonetheless wish to remain alive, and I support them in doing so. I also oppose impulsive suicide, and generally think recovery is better than suicide, but that those with a committed and consistent wish to die of their own volition should be enabled to do so.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

As much as I might not like it, I do understand the logic behind it. Many people who failed at killing themselves were able to recover with time and proper help and are now able to have good lives. While this isn't possible for everyone, the assumption is that you can never be sure, so making suicide easier causes harm by robbing people of this chance.

Unpopular opinion: most of us here don't really know if our life truly can't get better. We choose to believe so, because it simplifies our situation and makes suicide justifiable. Of course there are people for whom it's obvious, e.g. if you have some incurable disease which will only progressively make your life worse or if some irreversible damage has been done in one way or another. Otherwise it's always a gamble, and the regulations are based on "better safe than sorry" assumption. It's hard to blame people for wanting you to get better rather than die.

That said, there should be some limits there. It's inhumane to keep someone who suffers alive until they die of old age, just because we don't like the idea of them dying. Frankly speaking, even if someone told me that in a couple of months I'll recover and be good as new, I'd still prefer dying over what I've already been through.

Think about how horrific people's existence is who are in the worst 1000 lives on the planet . Any human can go into that situation of the worst lives even into the 10 worst lives or the worst on the planet . Think about the people who have the worst 10 lives the worst suffering on Earth . Life is the worst torturer of humans .All the defending of evil life is preventing people from escaping extreme torture And putting everyone else in danger .there is no objective reason to take such risks. All the meaningless addictions they say are so good are not worth garbage much less suffering the most extreme pain and extreme torture.

There is no rational defense of life.

No one can convince me there is any reason to live another day another minute. No reason That I have to live or to want to live or to do anything .

The stupid pleasure addictions are meaningless bait and not worth the most extreme torture or worst pain.

Nobody is advocating for genocide or to kill others nor to control what others do. Others suggesting we are is an attempt to silence anti-natalist ideas.

Just cause we say life is bad and non-existence is better which is true is not calling to control what others do

Wether an individual wants to live or die should be up to the individual. If someone wants to suffer and get old and suffer more in old age let them why would it matter to me?

Let them get old just don't say some meaningless garbage is worth the worst torture which will allow more people to be born to work struggle and suffer

The worst pain and suffering outweigh the meaningless pleasures

 

[willitpass]

Think about how horrific people's existence is who are in the worst 1000 lives on the planet . Any human can go into that situation of the worst lives even into the 10 worst lives or the worst on tne planet . Think about the people who have the worst 10 lives the worst suffering on Earth . Life is the worst torturer of humans All the defending of evil life is preventing people from escaping extreme torture And putting everyone else in danger .there is no objective reason to take such risks. All the meaningless addictions they say are so good are not worth garbage much less suffering the most extreme pain and extreme torture.

There is no rational defense of life.

No one can convince me there is any reason to live another day another minute. No reason That I have to live or to want to live or to do anything .

The stupid pleasure addictions are meaningless bait and not worth the most extreme torture or worst pain.

Nobody is advocating for genocide or to kill others . Others suggesting we are is an attempt to silence anti natalist ideas

For you. There is no reason that YOU want to live or carry in existing. But some of those people with the subjective "worst 1000 lives on the planet" may well be happy to continue living despite their negative circumstances. It is no one's right to determine if someone should be forced to live just as it is no one's right to say someone should be forced to die. Just because YOU don't believe suffering is worth living and you would prefer to die doesn't mean everyone feels that way. It is not your right to tell someone who is happy that they have to die just because you don't feel their suffering is worth living for. That is not your decision to make. Pro-choice. If someone chooses that they do not wish to live that is their decision. If someone chooses that they do wish to live that is their decision. No one else's.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

For you. There is no reason that YOU want to live or carry in existing. But some of those people with the subjective "worst 1000 lives on the planet" may well be happy to continue living despite their negative circumstances. It is no one's right to determine if someone should be forced to live just as it is no one's right to say someone should be forced to die. Just because YOU don't believe suffering is worth living and you would prefer to die doesn't mean everyone feels that way. It is not your right to tell someone who is happy that they have to die just because you don't feel their suffering is worth living for. That is not your decision to make. Pro-choice. If someone chooses that they do not wish to live that is their decision. If someone chooses that they do wish to live that is their decision. No one else's.

I couldn't care less what another human or doesn't do in their own lives. I'm not calling for controlling what others do and u saying I am is u lying. I'm for individual autonomy.

I said in a post above that if people want to live to suffer and get old let them . I don't care

It's ur lies that all this extreme suffering is subjective is what is putting more people in danger by more people being born, and denying those in extreme torture nembutal or the right to escape constant unbearable pain

It's the stupid fleeting pleasures that are subjective

Being burned over 96 percent of skin off and having to live like that is not subjective that is bad

Bring kidnapped and tortured for weeks is not subjective that is bad . Life is bad

Every human born is born because of the idea that life is good . Nobody would have kids if they thought life was bad.

We should be allowed to post that life is bad because this is the only place and people need to know the truth.

I'm not for controlling what others do . If D wants to sell me his nembutal that is his choice. And I want to buy it that is my choice. Everyone thinks the government has the right to stop that transaction and jail us both when it's no ones business but mine and D and it's not affecting anyone but me and D. Everyone should have the right to personal autonomy to do what they want in their own lives as long as it doesn't affect any other being . Me killing these monstrous cells they call a human body I'm trapped in is not going to affect anybody and is no one's business but my own . just as it's not my business if someone wants to live .

I'm not for forcing anyone to do anything. Most people are for forcing those that don't want to live in this to keep on working and suffering for no objective reason

 

[FuneralCry]

In my case ceasing to exist truly is all I hope and wish for, it's all that could ever be positive to me as existence really has only ever caused me to suffer, I see existence as the most terrible, horrific tragedy that just torments existing beings. Personally I just see nothing desirable about the burden of existence and it terrifies me how one can suffer for so long just to be tormented by old age, I only hope for non-existence, I only hope and wish to never suffer again, in an existence so cruel, torturous and painful death truly is all that could bring me peace.

 

[Chinaski]

This is a pro-choice site. The people who are pro-mortalist are in the minority here. It is nobodies right to decide for someone else whether they should live or die. Your personal experiences should not dictate someone else's outcome, especially not in something as large and permanent as death. Suicide in someone who can make the rational decision to do so is their choice. "Suicide for everyone" is no longer suicide, that is mass genocide, and is the opposite of pro choice. People complain about pro-lifers choosing whether or not we can end our lives, deciding that everyone should die is quite actually the same sentiment but the opposite end of the spectrum.

You fail to address the very important youtube video showing a cat chasing a mouse and therefore this is Straw Manning and also Gas Lighting, once again proving that you prolifers have absolutely no argument when presented with such powerful Logic and also Facts

Everyone thinks the government has the right to stop that transaction and jail us both when it's no ones business but mine and D and it's not affecting anyone but me and D. Everyone should have the right to personal autonomy to do what they want in their own lives as long as it doesn't affect any other

Addressing this point and only this point, N is a controlled substance because it's lethal and death is its only real purpose when bought in high volume. It is therefore a potential murder weapon and should probably not be freely available to dipshits.

As for the rest of your post(s), you're regularly angry on here in a manner which suggests folk here are preventing you from killing yourself by way of not agreeing with your absolutist position, this isn't the case, nobody is keeping you alive and I'm not sure what you're railing against. People kill themselves every day without giving a fuck about online opinion on the nocturnal activities of domestic cats.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Nature wants us do dissapear when our biological mission - reproduction and care of the brood - is accomplished, therefore we age. So I would say, for all old people suicide would be the solution and in accordance with nature.

This is such bullshit and borders into eugenics territory. Humans are one of the few species who are able to live past our reproductive prime (hence women undergoing menopause and living for decades past it). To put this into perspective, chimps begin to show signs of old age once they hit around their mid-30s. Most other female mammals die not too long after their reproduction ceases. Meanwhile, women seem to continue living on, decades after their reproduction ceases. This has been the case since we were hunters gatherers, so hygiene and medical advancements cannot be used to explain this.

This points to the idea that it is likely that, at some point during the evolution of our species, having around who were people pass their reproductive years was beneficial to our species' survival. So, from a "nature" standpoint this reasoning doesn't work.

This goes into the grandmother hypothesis, which mostly addresses the aspect of prolonged life in our species (and a other few species of mammals we've observed this in, such as orcas). Basically, women who became grandmothers likely helped in raising their grandchildren, increasing their genetic contribution to future generations. This hypothesis is based on historical records which show that children who had living grandmothers around were more likely to survive to adulthood. It has also been obserevd that, in killer whales, it's the menopausal females that take the lead, with the odds of a menopausal female taking the lead going up when food is hard to come by.

This post just feeds into ageism. You are devaluing the lives of others just because they are old. Older people are still people. The value of their life goes beyond just whether or not they can reproduce, especially in this day and age, where many aren't even bothered with reproducing in the first place.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

This is such bullshit and borders into eugenics territory. Humans are one of the few species who are able to live past our reproductive prime (hence women undergoing menopause and living for decades past it). To put this into perspective, chimps begin to show signs of old age once they hit around their mid-30s. Most other female mammals die not too long after their reproduction ceases. Meanwhile, women seem to continue living on, decades after their reproduction ceases. This has been the case since we were hunters gatherers, so hygiene and medical advancements cannot be used to explain this.

This points to the idea that it is likely that, at some point during the evolution of our species, having around who were people pass their reproductive years was beneficial to our species' survival. So, from a "nature" standpoint this reasoning doesn't work.

This goes into the grandmother hypothesis, which mostly addresses the aspect of prolonged life in our species (and a other few species of mammals we've observed this in, such as orcas). Basically, women who became grandmothers likely helped in raising their grandchildren, increasing their genetic contribution to future generations. This hypothesis is based on historical records which show that children who had living grandmothers around were more likely to survive to adulthood. It has also been obserevd that, in killer whales, it's the menopausal females that take the lead, with the odds of a menopausal female taking the lead going up when food is hard to come by.

This post just feeds into ageism. You are devaluing the lives of others just because they are old. Older people are still people. The value of their life goes beyond just whether or not they can reproduce, especially in this day and age, where many aren't even bothered with reproducing in the first place.

Why do you think we are aging? Just a bad joke of nature?

Suicide at old age has nothing to do with eugenetics, because nobody is forced to kill themself. In my opinion it would be only fair, if with vitality the survival instinct also goes down. I am 69 and I really don´t want to end in a nursing home like my mothre did.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Why do you think we are aging? Just a bad joke of nature?

Suicide at old age has nothing to do with eugenetics, because nobody is forced to kill themself. In my opinion it would be only fair, if with vitality the survival instinct also goes down. I am 69 and I really don´t want to end in a nursing home like my mothre did.

Cool, but saying that suicide would be a solution for all old people and trying to use biology as an argument to support this view has some very disgusting implications. Suicide is a personal choice, not something that should pushed as the "solution" for people apart of certain demographics based on how much you believe their lives are of value. If you want to ctb because of old age then fine, but how about you not project those feelings onto an entire demographic of people.

 

[Chinaski]

I think literally everyone should kill themselves, right now, regardless of age.

Except for me, obviously. I'm too scared.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

Cool, but saying that suicide would be a solution for all old people and trying to use biology as an argument to support this view has some very disgusting implications. Suicide is a personal choice, not something that should pushed as the "solution" for people apart of certain demographics based on how much you believe their lives are of value. If you want to ctb because of old age then fine, but how about you not project those feelings onto an entire demographic of people.

When you read about suicide at old age in the inertnet it is called a problem. In my opinion it is far more a solution than a problem. Old people are not allowed to die, because the equipment-based medicine in their last months brings big profit.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

When you read about suicide at old age in the inertnet it is called a problem. In my opinion it is far more a solution than a problem. Old people are not allowed to die, because the equipment-based medicine in their last months brings big profit.

Reading shit online doesn't mean anything. Who is to say that whatever you hear online is reflective of that demographic as a whole, especially when a lot of older people rarely use the internet. Either way, the issue here is you trying to argue that suicide is a solution for all old people in accordance to nature, which, again, has some disturbing implications to it.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

I just took a pain pill, so I'm a little hazy and maybe not understanding this post correctly. So because humans can potentially experience 10/10 suffering you think everyone should kill themselves? To avoid the possibility of that? Am I reading this correctly?

 

[Chinaski]

I just took a pain pill, so I'm a little hazy and maybe not understanding this post correctly. So because humans can potentially experience 10/10 suffering you think everyone should kill themselves? To avoid the possibility of that? Am I reading this correctly?

Also life is bad, just the other day l saw a spider spin a web in order to catch flies, brb just going to save the planet by killing anyone and everything.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

Also life is bad, just the other day l saw a spider spin a web in order to catch flies, brb just going to save the planet by killing anyone and everything.

It's really the only logical action.

 

[yellowjester]

I just took a pain pill, so I'm a little hazy and maybe not understanding this post correctly. So because humans can potentially experience 10/10 suffering you think everyone should kill themselves? To avoid the possibility of that? Am I reading this correctly?

I'm assuming their argument is that everyone would cone to that conclusion if they could feel 12/10 pain for just a few minutes and had enough foresight to understand that there's a small but realistic chance of them being trapped in that kind of pain (for years, decades) w/o the ability to commit suicide.

It's not that bad of an argument imo, it just doesn't take into account that pain is a subjective expierence that people can perceive in different ways, based on the neuro-chemical makeup of their brains. Hell, there's even masochists who find immense pleasure in agony; not sure how that fits into their equation

ETA Now that I tyoe it out, it sounds a lot less reasonable than I thought, given the unlikelyhood of such a scenario. I think most people would take the gamble, even if they knew how bad things csn get.