Help CO2 bag via baking soda & vinegar? In a bag… would this be quick and painless-ish?

[TheEmptyVoid]

I presume, that might work with relatively small bags, but pumping relatively large volumes of gas (like 15 liters or more) from one bag to another could be quite challenging, considering that you have to do this procedure while having a bag on the head and holding breath (in order to avoid premature LOC before sealing is done). I thought about this method before, and it seems unnecessarily complicated for me.

If it seems unnecessarily complicated for you, how do I do it with a large bag without having to hold breath, and without it being complicated, thank you

 

[Intoxicated]

If it seems unnecessarily complicated for you, how do I do it with a large bag without having to hold breath, and without it being complicated, thank you

Holding breath is needed in either case. In the simplest method, breathing is paused for the period of placing the bag over the head and sealing it around the neck. It makes sense to use hyperventilation beforehand for increasing available time without the symptoms of hypercapnia . The prefilled bag is opened when it touches the head and is put on by sliding over the hair and skin. This step may be trained with plain air. Placing a bag over the head takes less than 5 seconds. Sealing a bag around the neck with a PVC tape takes 20 - 30 seconds.

Pumping a gas between two bags through a straw or hose requires a good seal on both ends (otherwise a lot of useful gas may just escape into ambient atmosphere).

 

[hell toupee]

It's really hard to make the air not enter the bag when putting a bag filled with gas with no oxygen onto your head and sealing it, so I just put a bag around my head with no air inside, and before sealing it, I put a straw in the empty bag with no air inside around my head with another bag but instead of being empty, It's filled with gas with no oxygen, and I squeeze the bag to force the gas with no oxygen into the empty bag around my head with no air inside the bag around my head, and then I seal the bag around my neck to keep the gas contained around my head, I obviously will exhale completely and then empty the bag around my head of air to push it out, and then put the gas with no oxygen inside the bag around my head, and then I will zip tie my hands and legs to make sure I don't remove them while I'm unconscious, do you think my method I will use sounds painless and 100% guaranteed fatal, if no one saves me?

Regaining consciousness is unlikely because

1) after consciousness is lost, blood oxygen saturation keeps dropping further due to elimination of oxygen through the lungs and consuming oxygen by the body,
2) N₂O has additional sedative effect besides causing hypoxia via asphyxiation.

The volume of N₂O inside the bag will slightly decrease over time, because some amount of the gas will be dissolved in blood plasma and accumulated in tissues, but this shouldn't result in substantial loss.

That might help with increasing the N₂O concentration and decreasing the O₂ concentration inside the bag, but the given technique introduces other challenges. You'd need to set an optimal flow rate and ensure the integrity of the whole setup in case of possible uncontrollable body movements. I'd rather prefer non-ventilated setup because of its simplicity, keeping in mind that people actually died with non-ventilated bags filled with N₂O or He.

Yeah, mine is approximately 60 cm x 60 cm (in the fully deflated state), and it seems large enough.

Firstly, oxygen is displaced from the lungs, and this makes the concentration and partial pressure of O₂ significantly reduced there. Low partial pressure of O₂ makes the lungs to work in a somewhat inverse mode - instead of taking oxygen from air inside the lungs' space and attaching it to hemoglobin in the bloodstream, the alveoli take oxygen from hemoglobin and release it into the lungs' space. As a result, blood oxygen saturation drops, and when it becomes insufficient for maintaining consciousness, fainting occurs. Consuming oxygen by the body is also a contributing factor in producing hypoxia, but this process depletes oxygen reserves much slower than elimination of oxygen through the lungs during the first seconds of using the aforementioned techniques of gas asphyxiation.


Fortunately, rapid loss of consciousness is known to occur when the O₂ concentration in the breathed gas mixture is ≤6%, that allows us to add up to ~28% of air to a simple asphyxiant without compromising the effectiveness of gas asphyxiation. Since N₂O has an additional sedative effect, it may successfully induce unconsciousness with slightly higher proportions of air than plain inert gases like N₂.

I presume, that might work with relatively small bags, but pumping relatively large volumes of gas (like 15 liters or more) from one bag to another could be quite challenging, considering that you have to do this procedure while having a bag on the head and holding breath (in order to avoid premature LOC before sealing is done). I thought about this method before, and it seems unnecessarily complicated for me.

Deaths occurred even without purposeful sealing. For example, see this NSFW link.

Not sure if either of you would be interested in this but I was just reading an article in a medical journal about N20 and diffusion hypoxia and in the article they state that of the dentists who commit suicide, N20 is the most widely used method. They simply put on the mask and don't mix any oxygen in to the flow.

 

[hell toupee]

When I made a single maximally deep breath of N₂O from a balloon after some hyperventilation (with plain air) and then held my breath, blackout was achieved in about 35 - 40 s. When I inhaled the gas from a garbage bag placed over the head without exhaling maximum air from the lungs beforehand, LOC occurred in about 25 - 30 s. The bag was suspended so that my head would fall out of it due to the gravity force in case if I wouldn't release the head consciously (I actually was able to do this a few seconds before fainting).

The manufacturer of my chargers claims the purity of 99.95%. Of course, in either case, my lungs contained some residual air plus oxygen coming backwards from the bloodstream to the lungs space, so N₂O was inevitably diluted there to some extent. When placing the bag over the head, some amount of air goes inside the bag from outside, so this step has to be done very carefully.

If maximum volume of air is exhaled from the lungs and then a bag with a sufficiently large volume of asphyxiant is placed over the head with a proper care, getting less than 25% air inside looks entirely feasible. The experimentally determined speed of LOC supports this estimation.

I really appreciate your knowledge on this subject - do you mind answering a few more questions?

What initially attracted my attention was your comment above where it seems like you lost consciousness quicker when you didn't exhale completely.

I had started to read about diffusion hypoxia and N2O (Fink Effect). While diffusion hypoxia is typically referring to a dangerous hypoxic event after N2O is removed and the person is recovering. What caught my attention was the statement that hypoventilation dramatically exacerbates the hypoxia. The reason given, is, just as you stated, the body moves N2O to the lungs for exhalation. Apparently, breathing in a slow, shallow manner intensifies the hypoxia.

From your understanding, does the body have a ceiling effect with N2O? In other words, the body can only metabolize a certain amount of N2O (saturation) and the rest is moved to the lungs to be expelled? The reason I ask is, I was reading a drugs forum about N2O. There are more than a few posts in there that state that after you fill the balloon with N2O and inhale it, you can exhale it back in to the balloon to be used again. They stated that you can only do this 3 times.

If the above anecdote is correct, that must mean that there is still quite a bit of N2O sitting in the lungs waiting to be exhaled. So it seems to me, if this is true, it would be a positive attribute when using N2O with a plastic bag over the head, because my initial concern of using a plastic bag without a continuous flow of N2O (similar to inert gas exit bag method) was that I would quickly use up all of the N2O in the plastic bag, and given N2O's incredibly short half life, I would regain consciousness when hypercapnia sets in.

I obviously don't know enough about the subject to know if what I posted above is accurate or not. Using N2O with a plastic bag (no continuous flow), do you think it would be better to breathe as slow and shallow as possible (hypoventilation) to exacerbate hypoxia? Or would it be better to hyperventilate and blow off CO2 before securing the bag over the head? Am I correct in stating that in your tests, it took longer to lose consciousness (35-40 sec) when you hyperventilated first? And when you conducted the test of just breathing normally, it seems that you passed out quicker. From my layman perspective, it seems that hypoventilation, or slow, shallow breaths, would be much more beneficial in inducing hypoxia?

I am not totally sure about this, but is it correct to state that N2O has more affinity than oxygen in binding to hemoglobin? If that is true, it would make sense to breathe as slow as possible, because you are allowing more N2O to sit in the lungs where it displaces oxygen and eventually induces hypoxia.

I also think I may have figured out a way to place the bag over the head with minimal loss of N2O, or introducing ambient air in to the bag. You would need a large rubber band, but what I thought of doing was putting the bag on the top of my forehead when it's empty, with the rubber band a cm or 2 above the opening holding the bag against your forehead. Since I am using a small 3.3L canister with a regulator, I will then slip a tube under the seal on the forehead and proceed to fill the bag. Once it's full, I remove the tube and then simply pull the bag down to my neck with the rubber band sealing it. As you slide the bag down, the rubber band will keep the bag very close to the skin as it makes it way to the neck.

 

[Intoxicated]

I don't like derailing threads from their original subjects. This topic is supposed to be about CO2, and people seeking info about carbon dioxide probably wouldn't appreciate other gases being considered in depth here.