Atheists in religious countries

[cantdecidenameeven]

I'm an ex-muslim in a Muslim country. Even though I've left religion, religion will never leave me. It's everywhere. I have to abide by its rules and laws or I'll suffer great consequences.

I can't date non muslims as it's unethical for many reasons I won't get into, and atheists, especially women, tend to hide themselves in fear of great punishment.

And even if I did find someone, what's there to do? We'd have to do everything in secret. Can't hold hands in public, can't kiss, can't do shit without being judged or assaulted.

What do I do now? Kill myself? Jesus christ that's too much work. Plus, my family doesn't deserve that.

Flee the country? With what money? I live in a shitty 3rd world country, I need to exert x100 the effort as someone in the states to make half their salary. I'm dying of thirst and can't get myself a cup of water, so how am I gonna do that?

I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. The game was rigged from the start, from the second I was born into this shithole.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I'm an atheist also . Life can trap people in so many extremely horrible ways

This terrible life was imposed on all of us

 

[Neowise]

Religions suck. They can bring peace to the individual, but never to society.

 

[Leiot]

There may be a program for you to emigrate to the US or Europe because of religious persecution. Maybe quietly ask around. Make sure you're using some sort of VPN, Tor or something else to cover your tracks.

 

[KillingPain267]

That's why the world should have open borders. Let people vote with their feet, maybe then oppressive governments will think twice about their policies and abuses.

 

[Agon321]

That's why the world should have open borders. Let people vote with their feet, maybe then oppressive governments will think twice about their policies and abuses.

Your idea is a straight path to disaster.
If we did something like that, nowhere would be "safe".
I also think that people living in some countries would definitely be "happy" that millions of people are heading in their direction.
The world is not ready for something like that.
This type of idea only makes sense if the whole world is at a similar level of development.

Unfortunately, OP is terribly unlucky.
He lives in a country where it's hard to spread your wings.
Of course, the whole world is shitty in a way, but some places are less shitty.
The world is brutal and our fate can be sealed right after birth.

 

[KillingPain267]

Your idea is a straight path to disaster.
If we did something like that, nowhere would be "safe".
I also think that people living in some countries would definitely be "happy" that millions of people are heading in their direction.
The world is not ready for something like that.
This type of idea only makes sense if the whole world is at a similar level of development.

Unfortunately, OP is terribly unlucky.
He lives in a country where it's hard to spread your wings.
Of course, the whole world is shitty in a way, but some places are less shitty.
The world is brutal and our fate can be sealed right after birth.

The third world is only shitty because the west destroyed it and steals its ressources. The west should open its borders, it's the least they can do after all the centuries of colonialism, imperialism, invasions, destabilizations, funding right-wing coups, neo-liberalism, debt-enslavement, ressource theft and embargos.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

The third world is only shitty because the west destroyed it and steals its ressources. The west should open its borders, it's the least they can do after all the centuries of colonialism, imperialism, invasions, destabilizations, funding right-wing coups, neo-liberalism, debt-enslavement, ressource theft and embargos.

Don't forget all the corporate colonialism that is also hurting some of these countries. Cases like what happened to Ken Saro-Wiwa, who was essentially murdered by the Royal Dutch Shell Corportation and the Nigrerian government after being sentenced to death in a rigged trial.

I really like this video on it

 

[KillingPain267]

Don't forget all the corporate colonialism that is also hurting some of these countries. Cases like what happened to Ken Saro-Wiwa, who was essentially murdered by the Royal Dutch Shell Corportation and the Nigrerian government after being sentenced to death in a rigged trial.

I really like this video on him

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Yes, colonialism is still going on.

 

[Agon321]

The third world is only shitty because the west destroyed it and steals its ressources. The west should open its borders, it's the least they can do after all the centuries of colonialism, imperialism, invasions, destabilizations, funding right-wing coups, neo-liberalism, debt-enslavement, ressource theft and embargos.

I don't want to worry you, but you are also the beneficiary of these crimes.
I guarantee you that you would regret this decision very quickly.
The world is not rosy and "beautiful" ideals are very easily verified by reality.

Another thing is that not only the "West" committed crimes.
But I do not deny that the West acquired resources from other places.
Also, the fact that the "third world" looks the way it does is not only the fault of Western imperialism.

Utopia is fun, but naivety is dangerous.
In this way, you will not fix any problems, but you will make the whole situation worse.

I think that we should not continue this discussion, because I will not convince you, and you certainly will not convince me either.
I do not want to clutter up this thread by writing about a topic unrelated to the main OP thread.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

I don't want to worry you, but you are also the beneficiary of these crimes.
I guarantee you that you would regret this decision very quickly.
The world is not rosy and "beautiful" ideals are very easily verified by reality.

Another thing is that not only the "West" committed crimes.
But I do not deny that the West acquired resources from other places.
Also, the fact that the "third world" looks the way it does is not only the fault of Western imperialism.

Utopia is fun, but naivety is dangerous.
In this way, you will not fix any problems, but you will make the whole situation worse.

I think that we should not continue this discussion, because I will not convince you, and you certainly will not convince me either.
I do not want to clutter up this thread by writing about a topic unrelated to the main OP thread.

^

This is not just a problem in Sweden. Civil wars in Europe are a matter of time.
No, this is not a racist statement. You can't mix extremely different cultures and expect positive results. It does not work like that. Native Europeans also have their patience, so no one should be surprised when extreme organizations start to gain support.
Of course, in the eyes of many I am probably a racist, fascist, etc.
There is nothing racist about it.
Hate breeds hate. This cannot be stopped. That's the species we are.
This won't be my problem anymore, but the times ahead are not optimistic. I'm not surprised that some people are starting to let go of the brakes

For example, Paris is currently, in my opinion, the most overrated city in Europe.
It also has major security problems.
Among other things, by gangs of immigrants from Africa.

Well, that's a gigantic problem.

I'll probably be called a racist, etc.
But I am a huge opponent of what is currently happening.

Of course, I'm not a huge racist, but for some people it doesn't take much to call someone that way.

European countries have lost their fangs and claws.

For example, I don't consider myself a racist.

Just because I don't like pointless and short-sighted immigration policies doesn't make me a racist.

The fact that I see a sharp increase in crime in places where there are immigrants does not make me a racist either.

By the way.
Do you Asians see normally through your slanted eyes?

I'm not racist of course (I just don't like other races), but I'm curious about your perception of the world.

Considering this series of concerning posts you made towards other races, esepcially when comes to discussions on immigration, along the fact that you constantly have to specify that you are in fact not a racist, makes me not want to hear shit from you on this.

 

[Agon321]

^





Considering this series of concerning views you seem to hold towards other races, esepcially when comes to discussions on immigration, I don't want to hear shit from you on this.

Some of them can be considered racist, but others are facts. For example, the deterioration of security in Europe.
But this discussion is pointless, you are a fanatic of your views, I am a fanatic of my views. We will not reach a consensus.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Some of them can be considered racist, but others are facts. For example, the deterioration of security in Europe.
But this discussion is pointless, you are a fanatic of your views, I am a fanatic of my views. We will not reach a consensus.

Or maybe the issue has more to do with things like income. A lot of these immigrants don't start out as criminals but instead are usually forced into a lifestyle of crime as a result of circumstance. This is why there tends to be a clear divide between immigrants who are financially well-off and those who are poor. Those "scary gangs of African immigrants" exist because of the country's failure to provide adequate support to poorer and disadvantaged communities. These same gangs existed in places like Canada and the US, back when a lot of the poorer immigrants coming to those countries were from Europe. The racists back then also had the same attitudes as you did, just that this time it was more towards groups like Italians, rather than Africans. This isn't really that different from back then. This has nothing to do with race or ethnicity.

 

[leavingsoonx]

I'm an ex-muslim in a Muslim country. Even though I've left religion, religion will never leave me. It's everywhere. I have to abide by its rules and laws or I'll suffer great consequences.

I can't date non muslims as it's unethical for many reasons I won't get into, and atheists, especially women, tend to hide themselves in fear of great punishment.

And even if I did find someone, what's there to do? We'd have to do everything in secret. Can't hold hands in public, can't kiss, can't do shit without being judged or assaulted.

What do I do now? Kill myself? Jesus christ that's too much work. Plus, my family doesn't deserve that.

Flee the country? With what money? I live in a shitty 3rd world country, I need to exert x100 the effort as someone in the states to make half their salary. I'm dying of thirst and can't get myself a cup of water, so how am I gonna do that?

I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. The game was rigged from the start, from the second I was born into this shithole.

Religion is fake. If there is a God, he sure acts more like a fucking demon than an all loving God that cares about human lives. Jesus? Bullshit. It's all a bunch of bullshit. No greater power would let people suffer so much for no reason. Put on the earth and then get mad at us because we have no idea who the fuck he is, there's a million religions, and then because we had no idea what to follow he's going to throw us into a lake of fucking fire? To burn forever? Because he decided it's fucking okay? Good luck, I created you, but now forget me and if you don't find me again or live by my rules, fuck you have fun burning. Sounds like a fucking demon to me. No way this shit is real.

 

[Unspoken7612]

That's why the world should have open borders. Let people vote with their feet, maybe then oppressive governments will think twice about their policies and abuses.

Based.

The third world is only shitty because the west destroyed it and steals its ressources.

Nope, there are a variety of reasons including climate, over-dependence on natural resources, coups, elites governing in their own interest without worrying about democratic consequences, civil wars, a lack of access to global markets, socialist economic policies that fetishise poverty, and regional insecurity.

The reason Nigeria is relatively rich and Niger is relatively poor isn't because the British Empire was nice and the French Empire wasn't, it's largely because Niger is further from the sea. That's a big simplification, but if you just stop your analysis at "colonialism" then you an't really explain why some countries are doing much better than others. Another example is comparing Botswana to Zimbabwe, or North Korea to South Korea, or Costa Rica to Nicaragua...

 

[Leiot]

I think maybe we've gone a bit off-topic from the OP's post. He's someone who's suffering where he lives. (assuming he's male based on his comments).

We all know the world can be a pretty shitty place but maybe someone can help him carve out a small piece of it where he can live in peace.

 

[KillingPain267]

I don't want to worry you, but you are also the beneficiary of these crimes.
I guarantee you that you would regret this decision very quickly.

Who cares, it would just be more reasons to exit life.

 

[Reflection]

To be honest while it does make things harder and is inconvenient, I don't think it's that big a deal unless you are a girl with zealot parents or some shit...it really sucks to have to Larp every day to them, but it's definitely not worth killing yourself over.

 

[KillingPain267]

Based.

Nope, there are a variety of reasons including climate, over-dependence on natural resources, coups, elites governing in their own interest without worrying about democratic consequences, civil wars, a lack of access to global markets, socialist economic policies that fetishise poverty, and regional insecurity.

The reason Nigeria is relatively rich and Niger is relatively poor isn't because the British Empire was nice and the French Empire wasn't, it's largely because Niger is further from the sea. That's a big simplification, but if you just stop your analysis at "colonialism" then you an't really explain why some countries are doing much better than others. Another example is comparing Botswana to Zimbabwe, or North Korea to South Korea, or Costa Rica to Nicaragua...

The west drew these fake made up borders in the first place, and the west keeps funding certain puppet governments and crushing any policy that would hurt the profits of international corporations who operate in these countries. What would explain North Korea and South Korea? Hmmm, what a mystery, lol. The west funded and still funds South Korea's economy and cuts off North Korea from international trade. Between 1946 and 2024 127.6 billion dollars of US foreign aid has gone to South Korea, after adjusting for inflation. North Korea, on the other hand, received sanctions.

 

[Unspoken7612]

I can't actually offer any advice to OP I'm afraid. It does really suck and their struggles are valid. I don't know enough about their situation and I'm sure they've thought of ideas like "save up to emigrate and claim asylum". I do understand why someone would have extreme thoughts in response to their situation, but I do think there are other options than suicide, as they have identified.

What would explain North Korea and South Korea? Hmmm, what a mystery, lol.

It isn't a mystery at all. It's largely down to political decisions those two countries made. South Korea, especially from the 80s onwards, has been very well-governed, with great economic decisions to encourage growth, plus democracy to hold leaders accountable. Contrastingly North Korea has pursued a cult-of-personality government with a centrally-planned economy, a policy decision which has never led to sustained poverty reduction the way that free trade and free markets does.

It's strange to try and attribute it to aid, which actually seems to stunt growth. And I'd suggest looking at the case of Taiwan, a country which most of the world does not acknowledge the existence of, which rather punctures the whole notion that the communists aren't responsible for their own failures - if Taiwan can succeed without having its existence recognised then North Korea could as well (and frankly it wouldn't be sanctioned if the cult wasn't spending so much of its resources on nuclear weapons).

If you're interested, there's lots of good books about developmental economics that you can read. Why Nations Fail is the defining work, but you could also look at the works of Esther Duflo, Dambisa Moyo, Amartya Sen, Paul Collier, Sho-Chieh Tsiang, or Abhijit Banerjee. The Marxist approach you are taking lacks any empirical basis and is therefore discredited in serious intellectual circles - the truth is more complicated, which means there's more to learn!

 

[KillingPain267]

I can't actually offer any advice to OP I'm afraid. It does really suck and their struggles are valid. I don't know enough about their situation and I'm sure they've thought of ideas like "save up to emigrate and claim asylum". I do understand why someone would have extreme thoughts in response to their situation, but I do think there are other options than suicide, as they have identified.

It isn't a mystery at all. It's largely down to political decisions those two countries made. South Korea, especially from the 80s onwards, has been very well-governed, with great economic decisions to encourage growth, plus democracy to hold leaders accountable. Contrastingly North Korea has pursued a cult-of-personality government with a centrally-planned economy, a policy decision which has never led to sustained poverty reduction the way that free trade and free markets does.

It's strange to try and attribute it to aid, which actually seems to stunt growth. And I'd suggest looking at the case of Taiwan, a country which most of the world does not acknowledge the existence of, which rather punctures the whole notion that the communists aren't responsible for their own failures - if Taiwan can succeed without having its existence recognised then North Korea could as well (and frankly it wouldn't be sanctioned if the cult wasn't spending so much of its resources on nuclear weapons).

If you're interested, there's lots of good books about developmental economics that you can read. Why Nations Fail is the defining work, but you could also look at the works of Esther Duflo, Dambisa Moyo, Amartya Sen, Paul Collier, Sho-Chieh Tsiang, or Abhijit Banerjee. The Marxist approach you are taking lacks any empirical basis and is therefore discredited in serious intellectual circles - the truth is more complicated, which means there's more to learn!

Free market, lol. It doesn't exist. I was a free market libertarian before and heard all the arguments. Now I grew up and learned that it's nonsense. Taiwan, lol. It's not a success, unless you are part of the economic top elite. Over the past 30 years, Taiwan's wealth gap has surged from 16.8 times to nearly 67 times, with the wealthiest 20% of households now possessing assets exceeding NT$50 million (US$1,533,141), while the poorest 20% hold only NT$770,000 (US$23,611). Taiwan was also a significant recipient of U.S. economic and military aid during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s. And Biden now gives them more military support.

 

[fallingtopieces]

The west has colonized, carved up and exploited the "third world" to achieve the dominance it now has, and created lasting debt slavery with institutions like the IMF and World Bank. They cozy up and prop up dictators and authoritarians for their own benefit but talk about democratic ideals.

The forever powder keg that is the middle east is very much do to the west. You want to talk to me about democracy? Talk to me about how the US and UK overthrew a democracy in Iran (1953 Iranian coup d'éta), propped up a brutal dictator (The Shah) because of oil/energy self-interest. The Islamic Revolution is a direct result as it overthrew the Shah bringing is to today.
1) Iran could've been a beacon of democracy in the middle east
2) blowback, as the current regime continues to be a problem directly and via proxy wars along with the west, not to mention its own citizens

Saddam Hussein was once friendly with the US during the Reagan administration as Iraq became a US proxy against the Iranian nation that came to be as a result of that coup back in 1953.

Then further down the road the US/UK/west launch a war on iraq based on lies of links to terrorism and wmds. Hundreds of thousands dead, massive destruction, and quite expensive, a free for all for weapons and war profiteers. There are billions still unaccounted for.
Blowback again because where there were false claims of links to terrorism, the invasion would go on to birth an even more nasty, virulent strain of terrorism in the form of isis.

Post-holocaust and the west drawing up borders and not giving a shit afterwards as to the fallout.

Take India and British colonization. There was no Pakistan, only India where hindus and muslims lived side by side. With partition, and the brits divide and conquer parting gift, we now have two countries divided primarily on religious lines and two more nations with nuclear weapons and worries about terrorism.

How about Chile and US backed coup by Pinochet, overthrowing an elected government because of copper? "During the ensuing 17-year rule of Gen. Augusto Pinochet, more than 3,000 people would be disappeared or killed and some 38,000 would become political prisoners — most of them victims of torture."
Look into Latin American history for plenty more examples.

The US trained Osama Bin Laden and the mujahideen in Afghanistan as a proxy war against Russia, then they split and didnt give a shit about Afghanistan until blowback once again.

There has been constant intervention and proxy wars out of self interest by the west.

 

[Misanthrope0000]

Hey, I'm an ex muslim tunisian, my country and this fucking religion is the reason why I wish i was never born, you're not alone.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

That's why the world should have open borders. Let people vote with their feet, maybe then oppressive governments will think twice about their policies and abuses.

This reminds me of the thoughts of Curtis Yarvin alias Mencus Moldbug.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I'm an ex muslim too so I somewhat understand what you're going through even though I personally am in the west. Being an ex muslim in a third world country is absolutely brutal and horrifying, this is something I know from having been to pakistan many times. I really am sorry for your pain and you deserve better. It's so unfair at how the world is so harsh in third world countries yet pro lifers in the west conveniently forget that fact just so they can perpetuate their delusions about life.

To be honest while it does make things harder and is inconvenient, I don't think it's that big a deal unless you are a girl with zealot parents or some shit...it really sucks to have to Larp every day to them, but it's definitely not worth killing yourself over.

It is a big deal. Islam isn't anything like christianity or judaism. Islam is far worse than any other religions and pretending to be an ex muslim is extremely difficult in itself, more so if you're in a third world country as those people make islam their entire lives and perpetually force islamic education on to people. The things that islam makes you do is incredibly exhausting

 

[Reflection]

It is a big deal. Islam isn't anything like christianity or judaism. Islam is far worse than any other religions and pretending to be an ex muslim is extremely difficult in itself, more so if you're in a third world country as those people make islam their entire lives and perpetually force islamic education on to people. The things that islam makes you do is incredibly exexhausting

I get what you're saying, it all depends on where you live though, some countries are less draconian than others.

 

[KillingPain267]

This reminds me of the thoughts of Curtis Yarvin alias Mencus Moldbug.

I used to believe in open borders from an anarcho-capitalist hyper-libertarian standpoint. But now I believe in open borders from an anarcho-communist pacifist standpoint. Pacifist, obviously meaning there should be nobody enforcing any sort of border or property and neither anyone disrespecting someone's boundaries by force.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

I used to believe in open borders from an anarcho-capitalist hyper-libertarian standpoint. But now I believe in open borders from an anarcho-communist pacifist standpoint. Pacifist, obviously meaning there should be nobody enforcing any sort of border or property and neither anyone disrespecting someone's boundaries by force.

Isn´t it a contradiction in itself?

 

[s.s.scriptties]

I'm an ex-muslim in a Muslim country. Even though I've left religion, religion will never leave me. It's everywhere. I have to abide by its rules and laws or I'll suffer great consequences.

I can't date non muslims as it's unethical for many reasons I won't get into, and atheists, especially women, tend to hide themselves in fear of great punishment.

And even if I did find someone, what's there to do? We'd have to do everything in secret. Can't hold hands in public, can't kiss, can't do shit without being judged or assaulted.

What do I do now? Kill myself? Jesus christ that's too much work. Plus, my family doesn't deserve that.

Flee the country? With what money? I live in a shitty 3rd world country, I need to exert x100 the effort as someone in the states to make half their salary. I'm dying of thirst and can't get myself a cup of water, so how am I gonna do that?

I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. The game was rigged from the start, from the second I was born into this shithole.

I'm an atheist in Egypt, same issues... I can't openly say I'm an atheist.
Where are you from?

 

[KillingPain267]

Isn´t it a contradiction in itself?

What is?