[Article] If ‘X’ had given up and CTB’d, then ‘X’ would have missed out on (insert thing)!

[TAW122]

One of the more uncommon, but interesting arguments that come from pro-lifers, anti-choicers, and similar people are that if 'X' (where X could be anyone or individual) decided to CTB or gave up trying, then 'X' would have missed out on (insert certain thing, event, accomplishment, contribution, etc.). However, I have a counterargument to that. My counterargument is that even if said person, 'X' did recover (albeit at much later time, they would still have missed out something great during their absence or during debility or their worse times). I will elaborate more and give an example to convey my argument in depth.

For example, there is an extremely talented pianist (Leon Fleisher) who played at very high levels of performance, basically a world renowned concert pianist, however, during near the peak of his concert pianist career, he suffered a neurological disorder, called focal dystonia, which affected his ability to perform, let alone have full functional use of some of his fingers on his right hand. This effectively ended his career as a concert pianist and he suffered for many decades. While he did end up doing other career paths, to me, it was more of a 'cope' (which is valid if he accepted and embraced it – which he did but again, not everyone is similar to he). One day, he recovered and ended up playing again, albeit not to the same degree of mastery and level that he'd liked but he was satisfied.

Now people would ask, how does this example prove my argument and my argument is that even though he did make a recovery due to medical advancements later in his life, it wasn't until he was near his twilight years (in his 60's) and senior age, which by then he wouldn't have the same stamina as he did when he was younger. So in a sense, there was still "missing out" of what his career at his absolute peak could have been and while regained a lot of function and was able to play extraordinarily well even into his senior age, he still missed out on what he could have gotten. Again, while not everyone is similar to Leon Fleisher's case, the point still stands, that for some (or perhaps many more that we don't know of) people, missing out is still missing out.

One other small example is when someone is in their 20's or 30's suffering a false incarceration and one day, even if/when they are exonerated from prison, they lost the years of their adult life that they will never experience nor attain and no matter what happens post-exoneration, they will still always miss it and nothing could fully or truly replace the lost experience. While they could move forward in their senior and twilight years, they will always miss out on what they may have yearn for. Sure coping is one thing but for some people, missing out on something that is irrecoverable and irreplaceable is just too much.

Therefore, to summarize things up and using my examples the way I did, is basically that even if one was able to recover, sometimes it may not always be what they want. Many people ultimately think that well if they recover (even if it may be decades – which most people won't even wait that long, let alone a few years), that it should be good, despite the damage already done or losses already incurred. A lot people just seem to ignore the fact of 'irreplaceable experiences' and think that 'new experiences' in the present and future is good enough, but that itself is just a 'cope'. Finally, I'll close with a disclaimer: I'm not trying gatekeep or dictate what one deems acceptable or not; but simply pointing out the argument that just because there is a much delayed or different recovery doesn't suddenly make life/sentience worth it again. Ultimately, it is STILL up to each individual to hold that subjective value for themselves and themselves only.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

If 'X' had given up and CTB'd, then 'X' would have missed out on (insert thing)!

This assumes that 'X' lives on in another dimension. The fact is, once we're dead, whatever happens we won't know about it - things can become worse but also better. But there's no guarantee for anything.

I can say - if I CTBed in 2023, I would've missed out on a few things I enjoyed recently, but if I CTBed in 2023, I also wouldn't have missed out on anything bc I'm long gone and I wouldn't exist in this reality anymore.

None of us can take anything onto the other side, and that's why we actually can't miss out on anything once we're dead and not in this world anymore.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[TAW122]

Perhaps we are talking about slightly different things here, but I guess my article and topic was more focused on those who are suffering and that even if they could recover (but not feasibly or in a what would be considered a reasonable amount of time, maybe 10-20 years, or even 30+ years - assuming that one is willing to wait that long to begin with), they would still have ended up missing out (or losing) something, so if they had CTB'd instead of waiting out 10-20 or even 30+ years to have some meager (to them) recovery it wouldn't necessarily be worth the price paid of suffering until they get there. So in short, my point is about that if people like Leon Fleisher or similar CTB'd in their 30's or whenever before they had a cure (even a partial one), then they wouldn't endure nor experience missing out on a potential that never or could have been had when they are older (ultimately, Fleisher lived until his 80's before passing away).

In the off chance that perhaps you are referring to something else, I will address the point you mentioned. Yes, you are correct that once one is dead (or no longer sentient anymore), then one cannot miss anything as one would lack the capability to 'miss out'. Also, you are correct that non of us can take anything from our current state of sentience to the other side (presuming that one is conscious enough to experience the other side - depending on one's beliefs but objectively speaking the void/nothingness is probably the most likely outcome according to logic and science).

I believe I understand your points though and the points you made are also valid too.

 

[Scythe]

The thing is these things are usually taken into account. A suicidal person who's not doing it in the moment would likely think about these things at some point. They would be aware of the sequels they miss by dying and they choose to die despite it all. We are choosing to miss out on future fun so we can also "miss out" on future suffering.

There's also the more common agrument to this, which is no matter when someone dies they are missing out on something.

 

[Vorty30]

Honestly? Why waste time wondering about pro lifer stupidity that makes zero sense at the end of the day? It's as good as any other of their platitude tactics meant to trick you. The time I waste listening to what an ignorant pro lifer cuck has to say, might as well be the useful time I make peace, come to terms with things and plan my leave as well as finding closure without some asshole calling an ambulance and law enforcers on me.
Don't get me wrong, what you wrote is beyond true, it does prove a point... But at the end of the day, the less a person who is hell bent on leaving listens to this emotional black mail, the more close they will be to CTB or even finding a true path to Recovery, believe it or not.

 

[TAW122]

@Scythe Yes, I suppose that is true, though I just wrote this article mainly to expose the flaws and counter the argument that pro-lifer use. But yes, what you said is definitely true, especially about how people will always miss things on the grand scheme of things, whether they die sooner versus later in life.

We are choosing to miss out on future fun so we can also "miss out" on future suffering.

I like this sentence and it's succinctly summarized.

@Vorty30 To answer your question, sometimes I do ponder it, but there are moments where I have a clarity moment where I found something new or interesting and decided that I would share it on SaSu. Of course, just because I think about these things and philosophize and analyze stuff, doesn't mean that I'm not working towards my eventual CTB. I try to tune out pro-life spiel in day to day life, but there are times where I also write articles to vent, share my thoughts, and in hopes someone on SaSu may find it interesting (even long into the future after I CTB).

 

[Praestat_Mori]

@TAW122

I generalized it. It applies to everything.

 

[EmptyBottle]

For me, if I CTB'd in 2022, I'd not know that I could work independently for over 1h... I assumed I lost that skill coz parents assisted with assignments more often than they should. If I was taught how to focus vs being told to focus in 2018 or so, then it wouldn't have gotten bad enough for a CTB attempt. Nor many days of hoping I'll non-exist.

But I'm here now, and while I'm kinda happy where I am, with interesting security / VM course, a website I built (on profile/chat there is a nick which can lead one to my site... public posting that nick/link will make it easy for unregistered readers, including theoretical HR, to put 2 and 2 together. With what I post publicly, they'll have to do very deep digging that will waste a lot of time)

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think most importantly of all, the decision needs to come from the person themselves.

I've had reasonable opportunities here and there in life. In the past, they meant the world to me. I gave them my all to do the best job possible and to some extent, they gave me some satisfaction or, sense of purpose.

Now, I'm at a weird crossroads where one or two exciting projects loom on the horizon but, all I mostly feel is tired. I still try to do a good job but, my former passions aren't so sustaining for me now. They are feeling much more like chores- like everything else.

So- if I do have to live on (waiting for my Dad to go first,) I still need to function and earn money. I may even achieve a few things here and there but- do I care anymore? Will they make my life feel worth it? I doubt it. They haven't the past few years in particular.

Conversely, someone who has had terrible misfortune and ended up severely disabled may not be able to live out their dreams but, they may still find value in life. Their life may look hopeless or stunted to others but surely, their opinion is the most important.

Ultimately though, I think it's for the individual to work things through. What is it they want? Is there any way they can achieve it? How much effort are they willing to put in? Does it feel like it will be worth it? Only we can make those assessments for ourselves because, we all value different things.

Take your pianist. Did he by any chance teach in his more fallow years? I've known plenty of artists from all disciplines teach. Some get a lot out of doing that. For others, it's a necessary evil and horrible reminder that they aren't doing the thing they love.

Seeing as we don't have a crystal ball though- it could potentially go all sorts of ways for people. I agree though. It's dumb to assume a person's life would have been wonderful- if only they hadn't CTB. What seems more crucial is that they contemplated their life at it's most wonderful level, and made the decision on whether it was worth fighting for.

 

[SomewhatLoved]

I felt this way in the past.

In the fall of 2024 I was planning to kill myself. I had just graduated from school. I was waiting to write my licensing exam so I could get my license to practice in my role, and I sort of thought to myself that if I killed myself it would be bad because I would never get to do the job that I used to look at with so much admiration. But I can honestly say that now doing it I'm not any happier than I used to be, and it wasn't worth it.

You are the lens through which you experience the world. If your lens sucks, then so will the picture. At least in my experience, this picture didn't feel worth taking.

 

[SarahThrowsGin]

One definitely can argue that if one ctbd before year 2020, one would have missed out on a lot of horrifying developments: pandemic, wars, loss of civil rights in many places, people being fired because AI, banning of one's special interests, etc. And it would have been very good to miss out on all of this. Hell, from 2022 I kept delaying suicide by year each time, and guess what: the world only got strictly worse, nothing got better other than myself at certain venues I chose to pursue. But because I pursue them alone (what with everyone else either seeking a career or having a shallow personality otherwise), they don't quite compensate for the world going to hell, and when I struggle there is nothing good to experience for soliciting support from others is frowned upon in capitalist societies. I'm being told to either keep it to myself or seek therapy - and I have been to therapy, but it is useless for me as I need changes in environment in order to be safe to begin with, changes that are beyond my own ability and social credentials (such as education) to bring about.

Plus often times we're missing out while we are alive on many good things that only people luckier than us have, luckier because they came from supportive environments, and/or rich families, and/or had superior intelligence because of genes, and/or don't have autism etc. Life seems to be mostly about missing out good things that only happen to some other people, but bad things will find their way into your life without any effort on your part, because there are more than enough people who have too much energy to persist in doing bad things to others, and collective resistance to them is non-existent, awareness of persistence in wrong venues being the source of suffering is nil.

So far there seem to be way more horrible things to miss out by dying than good ones, as good ones are often missed out even while living.

 

[TAW122]

@EmptyBottle That's an interesting story and I'm glad that you are able to get your goals and aspirations done and I hope things continue to go well for you.

@Forever Sleep Good points and yes, ultimately it is only the individual who can determine whether their own life is worth living even in spite of many challenges, lost potential, opportunities, and such. I think we agree with each other. As for my pianist example, yes he went on to have a teaching career and found purpose and enrichment in doing so, even when his ailment was remedied and when he returned to the stage to perform (albeit not to what he could have wished), and he was generally satisfied, which in the end, was a happy ending for him. Of course, not all artists and musicians end up doing the same, as for instance, Keith Emerson never truly got over his hand injury and that was a factor in his eventual CTB.

@SomewhatLoved The last sentence is a beautiful analogy and I agree with your points. I do think there is at least one aspect that remains true here is that at least you have experienced your profession (even if you didn't enjoy it or so) and you now know for sure. Nobody could say you never tried and those who do are just ignorant of your experiences.

@SarahThrowsGin I had a similar experience too with most of my life. While I had good fleeting moments, ultimately, if I'm being objective and rational, I don't consider the fleeting moments of pleasure to be worth the reward after the majority of mundanity and potential horrific unpredictable suffering that sentience has to offer. I also like your perspective too about how those who thrived had better environments and other good factors (that is mostly luck based). Of course, sadly most of the general populace are too deluded that they don't get it and would instead uphold the status quo or keep pushing a narrative, platitude, or (wrong and irrational) idea..

 

[Dejected 55]

Firstly, once I'm dead I won't know I've missed anything.

Secondly, if I live to be 100 at some point I'd die anyway and whenever I die there will be something that happens after that point that I probably would have liked to see. With movies and TV shows being advertised a year or more in advance, I probably would even know a thing coming next year and in the moment I'm dying could possibly think "hey, I won't get to see that thing next year."

Whether you die tomorrow or 50 years from now, you're going to miss things. That's just how it goes. You can also stay alive and miss things too.