Antinatalism

[HGL91]

The world is full of suffering. Even when a person laughs, it's usually at the pain of someone or something else. I remember learning in psychology class that laughing is believed to truly be a coping mechanism or a way to connect with humans and show that you are not a threat. Saying laughing is a form of "joy" just sounds silly to me now.

I just think about the science behind life and how matter-of-fact and depressing it is. How any "happy" things are mainly artificial and human-made. Desserts, beauty, material items, comedy shows, romance, parties, amusement parks...

I wish I was never born and I'm so glad I've made it this far in life not bringing a child into this terrible world.

I think no matter where you've come into this world, there is suffering. There's no way around it. We all die and even the wealthy and successful experience suffering.

Thoughts on antinatalism? Thoughts on life being worth living or not?

 

[AnnaJaspers]

I am an antinatalist, recommend reading David Benatar "The Harm of Coming into Existence" and Sarah Perry "Every Cradle is a Grave" if you want to delve into the philosophy more.

Know you aren't alone, there are many of us who believe that it's immoral to create new life because of the inevitable pain a conscious person will feel, and some to the point of taking their of lives.

I like this quote by Benatar "Having a child is like playing Russian Roulette except the gun isn't aimed at your own head, but at your child's".

 

[HGL91]

I am an antinatalist, recommend reading David Benatar "The Harm of Coming into Existence" and Sarah Perry "Every Cradle is a Grave" if you want to delve into the philosophy more.

Know you aren't alone, there are many of us who believe that it's immoral to create new life because of the inevitable pain a conscious person will feel, and some to the point of taking their of lives.

I like this quote by Benatar "Having a child is like playing Russian Roulette except the gun isn't aimed at your own head, but at your child's".

Thanks. It's a concept I've known about but haven't really studied much because I've tried so hard to live happily the past few years. Though, it just ended up being stressful, painful, and inauthentic. Definitely seems like reads I can actually enjoy!

Also, I strongly agree with that quote and enjoy the simile given.

 

[inconsequential]

I am an anti-natalist, and frequently audibly question why people had children. They know that the world is going to continue to get worse, they admit this, and yet they brought things into the world to suffer. For what? An ego monument?

 

[HGL91]

I am an anti-natalist, and frequently audibly question why people had children. They know that the world is going to continue to get worse, they admit this, and yet they brought things into the world to suffer. For what? An ego monument?

For some, I think it's "part of their identity", like Catholics and Mormons that choose to have like 6 to 9 kids and the moms are stay at home moms while the fathers have like 3 jobs to support the family.

Another reason, people say it's because they get lonely or because they think it will save their romantic relationship.

It's all ego-related as you mentioned.

 

[Mbound]

I basically am, but I understand why most people don't get it or agree with it. To most people, having kids is as natural and expected as getting a job. They don't question it. And it is a pretty bleak worldview...but rational. In my opinion.

 

[irrelevant_string]

Oh yeah, although I think that my argument is based on negative utilitarianism which I cannot justify since I do not believe in objective morality.
This becomes an issue only if I'm trying to have a philosophical argument though, since in most everyday cases, when I argue with other people about it their responses are emotional.
Anyway, when the decision to reproduce is made, the children that would perhaps benefit from something that you as a parent will provide in the future(damn I probably messed up the tenses here...) simply do not exist yet, which precludes the claim that having children is an act of altruism and that not having them is selfish(yes, some people actually believe this). Alright, I can perhaps think of a case where having brought someone into existence turns out to be beneficial for humanity, but this just goes too far because we lack the ability to predict all of the consequences of our actions and in this case I'd argue that inaction, that is, not taking a gamble for the sake of only potentially doing something good is the right decision. I'd also add in a little bit of emotion to the argument, saying that people shouldn't be treated as a means to an end.

David Benatar has this asymmetry argument that most people either don't understand or don't agree with. It goes something like:
For a "non-existing being"(some people will immediately flag this phrase as nonsensical so it's better to put it in quotation marks), the absence of bad is good but the absence of good isn't bad.
The absence of good is only bad if there is a being that is deprived of it.
That is probably the weakest point in the whole antinatalist argument.
It could also be argued that no amount of good outweighs the bad, and that the inevitable existence of some bad is enough of a reason not to bring a sentient being into existence.
Damn... I don't know if anyone is actually going to read all of this...

 

[not_a_robot]

The world is full of suffering. Even when a person laughs, it's usually at the pain of someone or something else. I remember learning in psychology class that laughing is believed to truly be a coping mechanism or a way to connect with humans and show that you are not a threat. Saying laughing is a form of "joy" just sounds silly to me now.

I just think about the science behind life and how matter-of-fact and depressing it is. How any "happy" things are mainly artificial and human-made. Desserts, beauty, material items, comedy shows, romance, parties, amusement parks...

I wish I was never born and I'm so glad I've made it this far in life not bringing a child into this terrible world.

I think no matter where you've come into this world, there is suffering. There's no way around it. We all die and even the wealthy and successful experience suffering.

Thoughts on antinatalism? Thoughts on life being worth living or not?

I am supposed to feel shame as an old woman who never reproduced, but I don't. Every day I feel more certain that staying single and childless was the right decision for me. I love sleeping late and just masturbating or taking a nap anytime I feel like it. Knowing that if I ruin my own life, at least I never drag an innocent kid down with me. My conscience could not take that.

 

[Final Escape]

I'm only antinatalist for people with psychopathy, or other cluster B personality disorders. That small percentage of dangerous people with lack of empathy are responsible for so much of the suffering on the planet. You can diagnose psychopathy these days through brain imaging and well just by being around one and watching what they do not what they say. Oh and these people like power over others so they tend to go into positions where they can more easily harm and control the population with no accountability. You have no civilization without empathy.

I am supposed to feel shame as an old woman who never reproduced, but I don't. Every day I feel more certain that staying single and childless was the right decision for me. I love sleeping late and just masturbating or taking a nap anytime I feel like it. Knowing that if I ruin my own life, at least I never drag an innocent kid down with me. My conscience could not take that.

I didn't have kids either but I do regret it. I wish I had not been so ambivalent. Coming from complex trauma I struggled with relationships and if I had kept my kids they would have had it very rough. I wish I had given up for adoption instead of traumatizing myself with abortions. Yea I'm sure it would have ruined my body and it would suck to have to go through a whole pregnancy just to give the baby away with no compensation. But I feel a lot worse having been selfish and allowing them to be murdered by the abortionists.

 

[HGL91]

Oh yeah, although I think that my argument is based on negative utilitarianism which I cannot justify since I do not believe in objective morality.
This becomes an issue only if I'm trying to have a philosophical argument though, since in most everyday cases, when I argue with other people about it their responses are emotional.
Anyway, when the decision to reproduce is made, the children that would perhaps benefit from something that you as a parent will provide in the future(damn I probably messed up the tenses here...) simply do not exist yet, which precludes the claim that having children is an act of altruism and that not having them is selfish(yes, some people actually believe this). Alright, I can perhaps think of a case where having brought someone into existence turns out to be beneficial for humanity, but this just goes too far because we lack the ability to predict all of the consequences of our actions and in this case I'd argue that inaction, that is, not taking a gamble for the sake of only potentially doing something good is the right decision. I'd also add in a little bit of emotion to the argument, saying that people shouldn't be treated as a means to an end.

David Benatar has this asymmetry argument that most people either don't understand or don't agree with. It goes something like:
For a "non-existing being"(some people will immediately flag this phrase as nonsensical so it's better to put it in quotation marks), the absence of bad is good but the absence of good isn't bad.
The absence of good is only bad if there is a being that is deprived of it.
That is probably the weakest point in the whole antinatalist argument.
It could also be argued that no amount of good outweighs the bad, and that the inevitable existence of some bad is enough of a reason not to bring a sentient being into existence.
Damn... I don't know if anyone is actually going to read all of this...

I read it all, but honestly got kinda of confused lol

 

[NoDream]

I didn't have kids either but I do regret it. I wish I had not been so ambivalent. Coming from complex trauma I struggled with relationships and if I had kept my kids they would have had it very rough. I wish I had given up for adoption instead of traumatizing myself with abortions. Yea I'm sure it would have ruined my body and it would suck to have to go through a whole pregnancy just to give the baby away with no compensation. But I feel a lot worse having been selfish and allowing them to be murdered by the abortionists.

You cant murder a cluster of cells!

Are you trying to get young girls to CTB in despair because they now think they have murdered a baby?!

Some facts: A featus cant feel pain, it has no central nervoussystem and no brain. They doesent even have a heart, only electricity in the cells.

A very high number of featuses dies anyway bc of misscarriges that occur bc the featus is too defect to be able to evolve.

When you do an abortion its a high chans it wouldnt have made it anyway.

And a misscarriage or an abortion is a good thing, its much healthier for the female body than to be forced to go nine month pregnant and after that a traumatic birth with severe injuries. Heavy bleedings, infections, anal incontinence, muscledamage, operations, tearings all over, horrible pain, depressions and psychosis.......

Yes, I have made two abortions, after that a sterilization, best decision ever!

 

[Final Escape]

You cant murder a cluster of cells!

Are you trying to get young girls to CTB in despair because they now think they have murdered a baby?!

Some facts: A featus cant feel pain, it has no central nervoussystem and no brain. They doesent even have a heart, only electricity in the cells.

A very high number of featuses dies anyway bc of misscarriges that occur bc the featus is too defect to be able to evolve.

When you do an abortion its a high chans it wouldnt have made it anyway.

And a misscarriage or an abortion is a good thing, its much healthier for the female body than to be forced to go nine month pregnant and after that a traumatic birth with severe injuries. Heavy bleedings, infections, anal incontinence, muscledamage, operations, tearings all over, horrible pain, depressions and psychosis.......

Yes, I have made two abortions, after that a sterilization, best decision ever!

Well the fetus is alive when they perform an abortion plus they make u wait till it's 7 weeks along. I felt really traumatized especially after the first one. I became suicidal and I cried for like two weeks. I could not stop thinking about it after but then suppressed what had happened. Once I hit like my mid to late 30's I began to suffer a huge amount of grief over my lost children. It literally just hit out of nowhere the suppressed feelings about it. Sadly I had more than one :( They offer a chemical abortion if u aren't very far along but I heard it's excruciatingly painful and takes longer to complete. Any woman who has had an abortion recognizes that they destroyed their baby but often it doesn't seem real because u can't see the fetus unless they show u on the monitor thing. You aren't necessarily bonded to your pregnancy because that's not how it works. It takes a bit to settle in what's going on and to accept it. Not everyone is initially thrilled about being pregnant or immediately bonded to the fetus. If anything I just want women to understand that abortion is not without lasting consequences. After u have an abortion u will struggle to bond with future children.

 

[Brainpain]

I lean towards antinatalist and am proudly childfree. I have felt life was a burden my whole life and decided on childhood it was not fair to bring life into this world unless it is pretty much on a silver platter.

 

[200_ponies]

I am an antinatalist, efilist, and vegan. I think the world is just full to the brim with suffering, and there's only one (peaceful) way for us to end it: stop reproducing.

The fact that I was born to an extremely wealthy, supportive family and I still ended up with two types of depression as well as a heart condition, is proof enough that no one should gamble with another person's existence.

 

[HGL91]

I am an antinatalist, efilist, and vegan. I think the world is just full to the brim with suffering, and there's only one (peaceful) way for us to end it: stop reproducing.

The fact that I was born to an extremely wealthy, supportive family and I still ended up with two types of depression as well as a heart condition, is proof enough that no one should gamble with another person's existence.

Same! Grew up with wealth and a lot of support, and yet, still suicidal.

 

[HGL91]

I lean towards antinatalist and am proudly childfree. I have felt life was a burden my whole life and decided on childhood it was not fair to bring life into this world unless it is pretty much on a silver platter.

Even with a silver platter, rich people also get health problems, are screwed over, manipulated for their money, and experience tragedy. Life is just a burden. Period. :/

Well the fetus is alive when they perform an abortion plus they make u wait till it's 7 weeks along. I felt really traumatized especially after the first one. I became suicidal and I cried for like two weeks. I could not stop thinking about it after but then suppressed what had happened. Once I hit like my mid to late 30's I began to suffer a huge amount of grief over my lost children. It literally just hit out of nowhere the suppressed feelings about it. Sadly I had more than one :( They offer a chemical abortion if u aren't very far along but I heard it's excruciatingly painful and takes longer to complete. Any woman who has had an abortion recognizes that they destroyed their baby but often it doesn't seem real because u can't see the fetus unless they show u on the monitor thing. You aren't necessarily bonded to your pregnancy because that's not how it works. It takes a bit to settle in what's going on and to accept it. Not everyone is initially thrilled about being pregnant or immediately bonded to the fetus. If anything I just want women to understand that abortion is not without lasting consequences. After u have an abortion u will struggle to bond with future children.

Sorry to hear your abortions have affected you so badly. But I'd think that if you had those abortions, at the time, you felt it was the right choice. Do you think you would have been able to go through the 9 months of pregnancy healthfully?

My birth mom did cocaine while pregnant with me and I truly wish she aborted me. I can't feel anything without medication. Also, I was lucky to be adopted at age 5, but for 5 years I went back n forth from birth parents to foster parents and from the ghetto to an affluent neighborhood. Very stressful. As a weird therapist I met with once as a teen said, I was a "tiny depressed little fetus".

Many aren't "lucky" like me though and age through and out of the foster system, only to feel lost, unloved, and angry.

 

[irrelevant_string]

I read it all, but honestly got kinda of confused lol

Oh well... I don't blame you. I've always had trouble expressing my thoughts clearly. Add poor English skills to that and you get this gibberish.

 

[Painted Bird]

I'm an anti-natalist too. Never wanted any kids, never had any. Like I mentioned in some other topic before, I had a vasectomy years ago to make sure I stay childfree for good. I'm also permanently single now so no danger. I share the opinions of most of you, meaning that I strongly believe that bringing a child into this world is immoral and cruel, because it will suffer and cause others to suffer and then probably breed to. It's a vicious circle. Apart from the moral / ethical point of view I simply dislike kids and would be a terrible parent. Also wouldn't give up my independence and freedom. I also have really bad genes, so the kid would surely be depressed/suicidal/schizophrenic, etc.

 

[not_a_robot]

 

[RM5998]

@irrelevant_string My stance on the issue is somewhat similar to yours, but I often use similes that elicit anger to make sure my point is heard. The most common one is comparing wanting children to wanting a Ferrari, in that both are selfish acts that often come at great cost to the self, but are performed to please the self and impress others by demonstrating the extent of resources available. A child is a luxury, and having a child shows that you can afford luxuries, just like the Ferrari. And it feels good to be able to afford luxuries. However, the immediate cost of having a child is MUCH lower than the immediate cost of buying a Ferrari, making it incredibly tempting.

We have children because we need something to control our legacy, and children are the surest way of that. They ensure that we live on, in some form, even after death. It's an abstracted version of the instinctive need to breed. If you have a child, you will remain in the world for longer. And you can curate this version of you, hopefully making it better than what you actually are. After all, the child you don't have yet has no rights here, all that matters is your will.

However, the realist in me sees this as nothing more than a philosophical observation. It has little to no utility in terms of organizing our actions. We will always treat people as a means to an end, the end being our own happiness. Whether we treat them well or badly depends upon which would make us happier. People will always continue to have children, because for most people, it makes them happy. It doesn't matter if the reason they are happy is that they satisfied the instinct to breed, or because they now have a legacy, or due to them getting to prove to others that they have plenty of resources. There is, after all, no universal value system.

I'm sorry if that makes no sense, I'm not particularly good at finding the right words for ideas like this. Not having a useful value system of my own doesn't help.

 

[irrelevant_string]

It makes perfect sense. I like the way you express yourself. The third paragraph especially gives a nice explanation of why my words are rarely taken into consideration.
I often try to put everything in the form of an argument and try to abstract it to the extent that it stops being relatable and it doesn't reach anyone.
The truth is, philosophical speculation is not where my, or anyone else's beliefs originate and I am just as guilty of being irrational and overly emotional as anyone else.

And you are right, we do what makes us happy int the end. Reason is more like a lawyer for our primitive side. I find that somewhat depressing though... I can make sense of an argument. Feelings on the other hand are so chaotic. I guess what I'm hoping is that reason can at least help us understand ourselves and that the understanding somehow diminishes the power of our desires and our destructive tendencies.

I'm not sure what exactly my value system is either, or where it comes from. It probably has some connection to my Christian upbringing, even though I do not identify as a Christian anymore.

 

[Jean Améry]

I'd think anyone who has ever been seriously suicidal would naturally lean towards antinatalism (if life can be become so bad death becomes desirable clearly life isn't a party and since it's entirely possible one's offspring could find themselves in the very same situation why risk that?) although it's by no means necessary: even if one enjoys life and wishes for it to continue for oneself it's still possible one comes to the conclusion that nothing justifies bringing new humans into existence given the huge potential/risk of suffering and the certainty of death.

It's even possible to hold the position that overall life is not worth living but one's personal circumstances are such that they do not warrant suicide. The classical rebuttal of the barbarians' contention that anyone who holds antinatalist convictions should just kill themselves.

Since I do not want to be responsible (even indirectly) for others' pain and death I will not procreate under any circumstances. Ethics aside I do not see what upside it would have in relationship to my own well-being: children are a drain on resources and free time and I certainly do not need to become a nanny to be fulfilled.

You'd think anyone who has ever seriously contemplated all that procreation entails would be mesmerised at how much responsibility this entails and anyone but the most die-hard masochists would go though with it. How 'lucky' for the human species that people in general do not really think and love and sex are so powerful or we would have died out long ago.

 

[RM5998]

@irrelevant_string My value system (or rather, the pieces of it that I have left) are similarly connected to my standard middle-class Indian upbringing. I've rejected it on a rational level, but not really on an emotional one. Not having anything to put there has led to a void that paralyses me when important decisions need to be made. This leaves me at the mercy of my feelings, which fluctuate quite a bit, but revolve around 'what would mom think of this?' for most of the time. (Funny how everything comes back to that... despite me not exactly hating her.)

I can relate to the feeling of failing to convey meaning by speaking in the abstract. That's why I consciously include metaphors and similes in my speech. It helps ground the statement and get some spark of recognition from listeners, which helps reassure me that my words are not just tears in rain.

 

[suffering]

I'm antinatalist too. Very interesting remark about laughing, if you can share some recommended reading on the topic of laughter, I would appreciate it.

 

[irrelevant_string]

@RM5998 Yeah, I just wish it were a little simpler but I feel like I'm missing something blatantly obvious as most people seem to have less of a problem dealing with the seemingly infinite number of possible actions and outcomes.
Sometimes I wish I were in a low budget rpg where I'm rarely given more than a few options and most choices lead to a similar outcome. I usually choose to be as neutral as possible as it leaves less space for regrets.
I guess it helps to have an authority figure when you're uncertain about your decision-making abilities or when you don't have a clear-cut answer to moral dilemmas. That authority figure is God for one person, a parent for another, or who knows what else. It's a good way to reduce CPU usage and processing time either way.

 

[HGL91]

I'm antinatalist too. Very interesting remark about laughing, if you can share some recommended reading on the topic of laughter, I would appreciate it.

Sure thing! Here's 3:

Why Do We Laugh?

Laughter involves the contraction of fifteen different facial muscles. In addition, your breathing pattern changes, as your epiglottis partially covers your larynx, making you "gasp" for air.

www.scienceabc.com

"To understand why we burst out laughing from time to time, let's go back to our very beginnings. Think back to a time when fast food was literally an animal on four legs, running away from us, and we had to hunt it down to fill our bellies. At the same time, there were also animals running towards us, hunting us down to fill their bellies. At such times, our ancestors would've been under enormous amounts of stress while constantly trying to prolong and protect their lives. Therefore, it makes sense that when the danger finally passed, early humans shared a laugh with one another as a sign of relief!

The Science of Laughter

Far from mere reactions to jokes, hoots and hollers are serious business: They're innate -- and important -- social tools.

www.psychologytoday.com

"Most people think of laughter as a simple response to comedy, or a cathartic mood-lifter. Instead, after 10 years of research on this little-studied topic, I concluded that laughter is primarily a social vocalization that binds people together. It is a hidden language that we all speak. It is not a learned group reaction but an instinctive behavior programmed by our genes."

"The study also showed that banal comments like, "Where have you been?" or "It was nice meeting you, too" -- hardly knee-slappers -- are far more likely to precede laughter than jokes. Only 10% to 20% of the laughter episodes we witnessed followed anything joke-like...This suggests that the critical stimulus for laughter is another person, not a joke."

The Science of Laughter--and Why It Also Has a Dark Side

Laughter isn’t always positive or healthy

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[RainAndSadness]

I am kinda an anti-natalist. I don't agree with all their ideas but I generally agree that we shouldn't bring children into very unfortunate circumstances. Like, you should only consider children if you're in the most suitable situation to raise them. For me that means good mental health, a stable relationship with a great perspective for a common future, no financial struggles, having a functioning family (parents, siblings, etc). I think these are great indicators that you're ready for a child. But if there is the chance for divorce/breakup of financial instability for example, you probably shouldn't consider having children. This comes from a person who had a terrible childhood - and I blame my parents for that. It's not just them but I think most of my bad experiences as a child could have been prevented with more attention and care.

But as I said, I wouldn't necessarily describe myself as a pure anti-natalist. I agree with them on many ideas but there are other philosophical movements that also influenced my world view. But reducing harm and suffering on this planet is definitely my number one priority and we should strive for that.

 

[HGL91]

@suffering did you check out the articles? :)

 

[suffering]

@suffering did you check out the articles? :)

I did. It's a lot of think about and observe... I think we can tell a lot about how a person is by just hearing him or her laughing.Thank you for sharing the articles btw!

 

[Black_Knight]

I'm definitely antinatalist. Bringing a child into the world without their permission and then imposing all kinds of rules and expectations on them, whether they're physical rules, social rules, biological rules, whatever, is like kidnapping someone, dropping them into a warzone and expecting them to be grateful because you're the one who shares your canteen with them and hands them a gun to defend themselves with, if you even do that. All of these rules point to things that exist within the system of life to justify themselves, but have no justification outside of that system, where a consciousness-to-be ostensibly does (not) reside before birth, and if you acknowledge this well too bad, you're still hardcoded to act as though things matter because of suffering, something that I don't even understand the nature of.

I think of it less in terms of suffering and more in terms of it being a violation of agency, with suffering being one tool that's used to violate that agency so effectively. People get used to it, though, and then see nothing wrong with inflicting that same violation on others because it becomes the new normal. Which is a terrifying process straight out of some kind of sci-fi horror novel.