Fragile

Fragile

Broken
Jul 7, 2019
1,496
the wording on this article is enough to give us our answer, we are still many, many years from euthanasia being available for people with mental health conditions. there is no empathy for the mentally ill.

i live in one of the 5 countries with euthanasia, the only one in latin america. but it is only only, and i mean only for patients with very poor phisical condition, if you have mental health conditions they might even deny you from accesing it even if your condition is terminal.
 
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A

a_strange_day

Arcanist
Jul 16, 2019
461
I think there is hope, things are moving fast now. The girl in the video below was granted Euthanasia for mental illness back in 2015. The end of the story is really interesting.

 
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BridgeJumper

BridgeJumper

The Arsonist
Apr 7, 2019
1,194
And here I am, almost 26, having suffered for 13 years so exactly half my life, and being told to suck it up :)
 
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SuicidalSymphonies

SuicidalSymphonies

I think I'll take a dirt nap.
Oct 13, 2019
1,028
I think there is hope, things are moving fast now. The girl in the video below was granted Euthanasia for mental illness back in 2015. The end of the story is really interesting.



Yes, I watched this a few weeks ago... Bless her heart.
 
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H

Heart of Ice

Chillin'
Sep 26, 2019
362
Euthanasia because of mental health seems wrong to me, I don't know. You'll probably disagree with me. This is just sad.
 
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F

Final Escape

I’ve been here too long
Jul 8, 2018
4,348
In a healthy society I highly doubt that there would be as many mentally ill people and there would be more effective humane ways to help people overcome these issues. There might still be that rare person who cannot be helped but they would be an exception. I'm kind of an idealist though. I always envision how it could be and not the reality lol! Curse of the INFP personality type. I was reading the other day that INFP's are the most susceptible to the brainwashing and propaganda, I'm like yea that explains why I went off the reality path so bad lol!
 
T

Thanatos

Outsider
Mar 23, 2018
360
Euthanasia because of mental health seems wrong to me, I don't know. You'll probably disagree with me. This is just sad.
Dying in a hospital surrounded by loved ones vs. Splattering my insides on cement. Not sure I understand your logic
 
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H

Heart of Ice

Chillin'
Sep 26, 2019
362
Dying in a hospital surrounded by loved ones vs. Splattering my insides on cement. Not sure I understand your logic
When it becomes a medical problem, it becomes a political one, since the doctors need education and the hospitals need licences etc etc. It becomes a mess. Basically it becomes everyone's problem, because some people might not agree about paying taxes that might go indirectly into some 24-year-old woman's euthanasia, essentially suicide by proxy.
 
J

Jean Améry

Enlightened
Mar 17, 2019
1,098
""This is a shocking example of the slippery slope at work once society accepts that, for certain reasons, euthanasia should be lawful. Death is not the answer to Kelly's severe problems. It's hard not to feel that in a country where doctors are licenced to kill, there are fewer resources to treat people with Kelly's illness."

What is shocking is that this woman doesn't know the person she's referring to, doesn't know her history, doesn't know Belgian society, doesn't know the Belgian healthcare system, doesn't know the Belgian euthanasia law yet she thinks she has all the answers and knows perfectly well what it's all about.

The stupidity of such ideologically motivated individuals is mindboggling: reality does not matter, only one's prejudices. This amounts to nothing less than 'talking out of one's ass'.

As to the matter at hand: imo euthanasia (legal physician administered death) is not the answer for people with mental problems. Since they are physically capable (unless they also have severe physical issues) they do not need a doctor to give them a lethal injection. They should have access to barbiturates to do it themselves.

There's merit in the position that medical doctors should not kill people unless they are physically incapable of suicide. Legal acces to humane means for suicide is the answer to unbearable emotional or mental suffering not euthanasia, certainly not when it's ultimately up to the physician to decide whether to grant the patient's wish or not.

To me this amounts to having to beg for death: I for one will not do such a thing since it would be too great an insult to my dignity and honour.

It's a sad state of affairs that legalizing euthanasia for mental health reasons is deemed progress while it amounts to medicalizing death and grants doctors the power to decide who gets the mercy of a clean, swift and painless death and who is left to their own devices and more often than not will have to use gruesome, inhumane means.

Again: euthanasia should be reserved for extremely ill people who do not have the physical capacity to swallow nembutal or another euthanaticum. Adults should have the right to decide the time and manner of their death, be legally protected against forced intervention and have legal access to humane means.
 
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C

Corraled

Student
Oct 11, 2019
125
When it becomes a medical problem, it becomes a political one, since the doctors need education and the hospitals need licences etc etc. It becomes a mess. Basically it becomes everyone's problem, because some people might not agree about paying taxes that might go indirectly into some 24-year-old woman's euthanasia, essentially suicide by proxy.
Are you for real? Nobody opposes euthanasia because of "tax". Taxes are always used as a cover in any political argument... eh i dont like X because muh taxpayer.
 
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Misanthrope

Misanthrope

Mage
Oct 23, 2018
557
I have never understood this distinction between mental health and physical health. Especially when it comes to euthanasia debates and who gets denied and why.

To me it is the same things as it has the exact same end result.

Chronic Physical Illness: Terminal or otherwise, that compromises acceptable quality of life. Avenues of recovery and respite having been exhausted. End result, loss of value in living.

Chronic Mental Disorder: Which compromises acceptable quality of life. Avenues of recovery and respite having been exhausted. End result, loss of value in living.


Both are costly and both produce burdens on the surrounding people and the taxpayer. So I still see no distinction.

If people in either of these states reach that conclusion, have not been coerced, demonstrate capacity and an ability to consent. It should not matter if it is mental health or physical issues at that point. That seems humane to me. It is the the only way you can respect autonomy of a person. Sad, but better than the alternative of living life that has no value to you any more.

People will make the counterpoint, that the mentally ill are incapable of knowing what they want because they are mentally ill. But that does not hold water either. Because that is also true of physical issues that affect mood, impulse control and produce their own deluded states.

It is why capacity law is meant to exist in the first place. It should cover this.

Also physical health issues feed into mental health issues and vice versa. All exacerbating the other. Having a mental health condition does not suddenly render the physical condition non existent either. If anything it will worsen the natural psychological pressures a non labeled person still has to contend with.

It should go right back to capacity and consent. This distinction between physical and mental seems mostly a political one or a knee jerk reactionary one founded on some abstract morality. Or flawed understanding that assumes incorrectly that people with mental health diagnosis cannot make decisions. If they can be prosecuted for a crime and found culpable while having a mental health diagnosis that is kind of proof of the opposite. There is a lot of that proof locked up in prisons.

It is fair to point out a physical diagnosis may produce objective certainty that you will not recover. The same can't be said for the mentally disordered. But that isn't entirely true either. Because some are declared treatment-resistant and have exhausted what is on offer. To the point services quite literally tell them to focus on quality of life concerns.

If you cannot have quality of life then euthanasia seems fair and respectful of autonomy.
 
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Darkhaven

Darkhaven

All i have left is memories
May 19, 2019
979
""This is a shocking example of the slippery slope at work once society accepts that, for certain reasons, euthanasia should be lawful. Death is not the answer to Kelly's severe problems. It's hard not to feel that in a country where doctors are licenced to kill, there are fewer resources to treat people with Kelly's illness."

What is shocking is that this woman doesn't know the person she's referring to, doesn't know her history, doesn't know Belgian society, doesn't know the Belgian healthcare system, doesn't know the Belgian euthanasia law yet she thinks she has all the answers and knows perfectly well what it's all about.

The stupidity of such ideologically motivated individuals is mindboggling: reality does not matter, only one's prejudices. This amounts to nothing less than 'talking out of one's ass'.

As to the matter at hand: imo euthanasia (legal physician administered death) is not the answer for people with mental problems. Since they are physically capable (unless they also have severe physical issues) they do not need a doctor to give them a lethal injection. They should have access to barbiturates to do it themselves.

There's merit in the position that medical doctors should not kill people unless they are physically incapable of suicide. Legal acces to humane means for suicide is the answer to unbearable emotional or mental suffering not euthanasia, certainly not when it's ultimately up to the physician to decide whether to grant the patient's wish or not.

To me this amounts to having to beg for death: I for one will not do such a thing since it would be too great an insult to my dignity and honour.

It's a sad state of affairs that legalizing euthanasia for mental health reasons is deemed progress while it amounts to medicalizing death and grants doctors the power to decide who gets the mercy of a clean, swift and painless death and who is left to their own devices and more often than not will have to use gruesome, inhumane means.

Again: euthanasia should be reserved for extremely ill people who do not have the physical capacity to swallow nembutal or another euthanaticum. Adults should have the right to decide the time and manner of their death, be legally protected against forced intervention and have legal access to humane means.
Yep.
Pro euthanasia movements using the mantra "my right to die" or "my body, my choice" in truth are fighting not to have a "right to die" but rather to give doctors that power over them.
Now imagine someone who is in pain, physical, mental, both, it doesn't matter, and wants to get euthanased. Not only will that person have to go through all the difficulties every person considering ending their lives has to go through: the doubts, fears, their families trying to stop or talk them of it, but on top of all that they will also have to submit their lives to a jury of doctors (in my country they want to require a positive opinion from 3 different doctors) and have their lives scrutinized by these people, who can be very judgemental and arrogant, in the sense that they think that really have an authority over people. It's very common in my country to go to a doctor and end up receiving a rant for not doing things the way they want, or for not having gone there sooner. The old ones tend to be specially stubborn and intolerable.
So, yeah, the "right to beg" doesn't empower people to end their lives as they wish, it only empowers the people who are going to make the decision.
In my country, that social and working class (the doctors and health professionals) is older than on other european countries and tend to have a pro life stance.
The younger ones tend to think differently.
But it's still not enough.
Decriminalizing the aquisition of "barbiturates" would be the way to go, specially in a country where possessing individual doses of recreational drugs is not a crime.
It's not going to happen. The euthanasia bill has very good chances of being approved here, but that will come with the price of heavy requirements and very specific demands.
And of course, we can count with the, now representative depleted, right wing parties and pro lifers, full of Catholicism and "human dignity" to give, to make a big uproar and apparatus with protests in front of parliament in the day it will be voted. A stupid attempt to influence the voting.
Ex Presidents of the Republic are also sure to come out of their tombs to say that "legalizing euthanasia is a calamitie to the country".
It all happened last year, and it will happen again.
 
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bigj75

bigj75

“From Knowledge springs power."
Sep 1, 2018
2,540
And here I am, almost 26, having suffered for 13 years so exactly half my life, and being told to suck it up :)
That trips me out when people say to suck it up. there are people who have circumstances that are so far beyond their means that it's not something someone can conceive of just sucking up and moving on.
 
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I’vehadenough

I’vehadenough

Elementalist
Sep 15, 2018
847
The problem with this is that you need two therapists to say your pain is untreatable. No one in the US will do this, they will just keep referring you to more and more doctors, then lock you in a psych ward until you pretend you are feeling better just so you can escape. Then they will say you are cured
 
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H

Heart of Ice

Chillin'
Sep 26, 2019
362
Are you for real? Nobody opposes euthanasia because of "tax". Taxes are always used as a cover in any political argument... eh i dont like X because muh taxpayer.
I don't oppose euthanasia. I oppose euthanasia for the mentally ill.

I have, however, been giving this more thought recently. I don't know, I guess the main reason is just my lack of sympathy for mental illness because I have not suffered from one myself.
 
Sweet emotion

Sweet emotion

Enlightened
Sep 14, 2019
1,325
There isn't even euthanasia for the ones who suffer physically yet. Cancer cancer caner blah blah blah six months to live but that's it. There are worse thing than cancer out there.
 
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C

Corraled

Student
Oct 11, 2019
125
I don't oppose euthanasia. I oppose euthanasia for the mentally ill.

I have, however, been giving this more thought recently. I don't know, I guess the main reason is just my lack of sympathy for mental illness because I have not suffered from one myself.
My point was that the taxation argument is just a fig leaf
 
dreamsofdestruction

dreamsofdestruction

Everywhere I look is chaos
May 9, 2019
340
I think there is hope, things are moving fast now. The girl in the video below was granted Euthanasia for mental illness back in 2015.
After a lifetime of continual failed treatment. God knows what you have to go through in that regard to apply successfully.

The end of the story is really interesting.
I found it heartbreaking when she thought there was a chance that she could be okay and she got her hopes up a little bit only to find she couldn't bear it after all.
 
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Wreck-it-Riley

Wreck-it-Riley

My demon will see me undone
Oct 20, 2019
269
The linked article is very Critical because the website, author, and stance is Pro-life. It was posted with permission from an anti abortion group. Finding unbiased sources is hard, but the votes in my area have been pretty close to allowing it for mental health.

People push the idea that mental illness is just take your medication and you will be fine. It is the first question everyone asks me when i have any negative emotions. "Have you taken your meds?" but they literally do not know how or why these meds even help. They have been in use for decades and we still cant figure out how they work. And after trying so many combinations of meds and being written off by every doctor? How do you find any hope at all? But mentally ill patients make drug companies an enormous amount of money, so they lobby against Assisted suicide. Pro life groups fight it even for terminal patients.

I dont think its going to be Legal here any time soon, but one can hope. Put a post script on your notes. "This was painful, alienating and frightening. Wish i had a doctor help me."
 
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R

ronigail9

Student
Oct 5, 2019
156
Euthanasia because of mental health seems wrong to me, I don't know. You'll probably disagree with me. This is just sad.
It seems that way, but she wanted it. We should all have a right to die on our own terms and in a safe, dignified way.
 
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I’vehadenough

I’vehadenough

Elementalist
Sep 15, 2018
847
Mental illn
It seems that way, but she wanted it. We should all have a right to die on our own terms and in a safe, dignified way.
Mental illness is worse than physical from my experience. I'd rather be dying of aids right now than go through the shit I'm going through
 
O

Once_here_then_gone

Member
Oct 21, 2019
8
The problem with this is that you need two therapists to say your pain is untreatable. No one in the US will do this, they will just keep referring you to more and more doctors, then lock you in a psych ward until you pretend you are feeling better just so you can escape. Then they will say you are cured
This is exactly the procedure.
 
G

greenlight

Member
Oct 22, 2019
23
I don't think euthanasia will ever be a major thing
 
Divine Trinity

Divine Trinity

Pugna Vigil
Mar 20, 2019
310
I have never understood this distinction between mental health and physical health. Especially when it comes to euthanasia debates and who gets denied and why.

To me it is the same things as it has the exact same end result.

Chronic Physical Illness: Terminal or otherwise, that compromises acceptable quality of life. Avenues of recovery and respite having been exhausted. End result, loss of value in living.

Chronic Mental Disorder: Which compromises acceptable quality of life. Avenues of recovery and respite having been exhausted. End result, loss of value in living.


Both are costly and both produce burdens on the surrounding people and the taxpayer. So I still see no distinction.

If people in either of these states reach that conclusion, have not been coerced, demonstrate capacity and an ability to consent. It should not matter if it is mental health or physical issues at that point. That seems humane to me. It is the the only way you can respect autonomy of a person. Sad, but better than the alternative of living life that has no value to you any more.

People will make the counterpoint, that the mentally ill are incapable of knowing what they want because they are mentally ill. But that does not hold water either. Because that is also true of physical issues that affect mood, impulse control and produce their own deluded states.

It is why capacity law is meant to exist in the first place. It should cover this.

Also physical health issues feed into mental health issues and vice versa. All exacerbating the other. Having a mental health condition does not suddenly render the physical condition non existent either. If anything it will worsen the natural psychological pressures a non labeled person still has to contend with.

It should go right back to capacity and consent. This distinction between physical and mental seems mostly a political one or a knee jerk reactionary one founded on some abstract morality. Or flawed understanding that assumes incorrectly that people with mental health diagnosis cannot make decisions. If they can be prosecuted for a crime and found culpable while having a mental health diagnosis that is kind of proof of the opposite. There is a lot of that proof locked up in prisons.

It is fair to point out a physical diagnosis may produce objective certainty that you will not recover. The same can't be said for the mentally disordered. But that isn't entirely true either. Because some are declared treatment-resistant and have exhausted what is on offer. To the point services quite literally tell them to focus on quality of life concerns.

If you cannot have quality of life then euthanasia seems fair and respectful of autonomy.
This one of my personal favorite topics. I think the fundamental question is whether there is a "mind and body" or just a "body". The brain is an organ, and like any other organ can fail or suffer trauma. Philosophy and subsequently the sciences are rooted in this unfound, mythological, religous-like assertion that the mind, more specifically, the ego, operates under this supernatural realm that cannot be understood by contemporary means of obversation.

This subject reminds me both of how young modern science is, and how much it has to this day been influenced by political (meaning economic) forces. Most scientist were/are openly religious people, it wouldn't be surprising that cognitive dissonance compels academia to reject the evidence that contradicts against fundamental assumptions that are pillars to society.

The most significant scientific development occurs in ages and areas with high amounts of capital accumulation and concentration of capital. To put it succinctly, scientific development is greatest within warring empires. However, the focus during this time is not for some romantic puruit of truth, intellectual curiosity, or societal crisis (well sometimes) the primary concious effort is for developing, manufacturing, and enhancing technology that kills large numbers of people quickly. That describes all major scientific developments, up until the mid-late 20th century. That goal had been achieved.

By the 1960's, for the first time in human history, possibly world history, a single species had the ability to trigger it's own extinction (more accurately a mass extinction) at a single impulse, to quote J. Robert Oppenheimer in July 16, 1945 referencing text from Hindu scripture "Now I [have] become death, destroyer of worlds". And from sheer luck, that impulse has yet to be triggered.

However, immediately after achieving the goal of absolute destruction, a plight that modern science had undergone for some 200+ years. There was a realization, more like an acceptance that this technology could not ever be controlled, concealed, or used like some scientist had warned nearly 4 decades earlier. Instant communication, GPS tracking, ICBM, nuclear warheads, etc. was too spontaneous, too devastating, too absolute to wield. Nuclear warheads marked the first time the upper echelons of power feared technology, a fear that our collective feat, offspring if you will, could be used against us.

So a new goal was created, since we have achieved absolute collective destruction, we must now develop the means for a selective absolute devastation. After all, the biggest problem with nuclear warheads is it leaves the lands baron snd desolate, no way to accumulate capital from the area selected for potentially thousands of years. We must create a technology that can unequivically annihilate the "other", while leaving the land intact (enough) for the extraction of capital.

Intense debates were had over what form this selective devastation should manifest, but not only must only terminate the target, it must be so capital intensive only the richest most absolute empire have the resources to wield this technology against the world. It wouldn't matter if the blueprints were exposed to the "other" because the market's contriction will render it useless to those without the global manufacturing network. Eventually, the first manifestation was born, and soon introduced in the late 2000's- early 10's, the US drone program, likely the greatest act of state terrorism in terms of civilian deaths in human history.


Yet, with all these resources, all these decades, all these research organizations, all the highly educated talented people, etc. No one ever bothered to question why we as a collective whole are so hell-bent on finding new ways of killing ourselves? Is death is our sole purpose? is technology the only medium scientific theory can use to interact with the world? Is global mass manufacturing, and subsequently anthropogenic environmental alteration is necessary?

If there is a "mind and body" that interacts symbiotically together as seperate entities, does that mean given the habitual warmongering practised by communities of people and civilization, that by nature we as a species seek death? Or is death the natural consequence of our actions, whether we as "individuals" (a concept with no universal scientific definition) intended for that result or not? If so, then what significance does having free-will hold if we do not possess the cognitive capacity for at least, limited omnipotence? There would still be unforeseen outcomes and unknown mechanisms to our behavior that prevent us from effectively utilizing such potential.

Ultimately, the debate of "free-will", "mind body" is pointless, because reality acts regardless of our perception. The only thing that would change is the form of our society as certain practices would no longer be justifiable such as retribution or shame. The concept of "free-will" is a psychological and social inhibitor of freedom, redemption, forgiveness, empathy, learning, and creativity. It's a draconian-era invisible shackle to the human spirit ironically sold to us as liberation and truth.
 
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Sunset Limited

Sunset Limited

I believe in Sunset Limited
Jul 29, 2019
1,279
"If doctors in Belgium agree that Kelly can be killed, there will be even less compassion for people with profound mental health problems."

I misunderstood? Does they see it as compassion to refuse the request for euthanasia of untreated mental health patients? When will these people end? When will they stop seeing this love of life that they blessed as deprivation of others? I really can't believe it. One person wants to end his life with free will, but others say "no you should not do". he calls it compassion. lol
 
Disintegration

Disintegration

Life is a terminal sexually transmitted disease.
Sep 28, 2019
190
Fuck the dogmatic religious prolifers in the comment section after the ops article. Ignorant morons :angry:
 
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D

Done at Fifty

Student
Feb 19, 2019
116
I think you should be allowed to commit suicide regardless of depression or physical illness. They recently legalize assisted suicide for terminally ill here in Canada, and I fear doctors won't diagnosis people as a result. We already have a problem with doctors happy to tell people what the don't have but not actually diagnosis them so they don't have to fill out claim forms in case the person feels its disabling them.
If a depression diagnosis can get you suicide, they'll probably shy away from it.
 
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BPD_LE

BPD_LE

The Queen of Meme
Aug 11, 2019
1,576
I've bumped this just because the crisis team last week did not believe me when I referenced cases like this. They were shocked simply by the thought, I said it's true, look it up!
 
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