Discussion Would a grandmother forcing her grandchild to kiss her (on the cheek) (as a habit) be considered sexual abuse,nowadays?

[Darkhaven]

Considering nowadays social standards, would kissing a small kid (2-11 years old) against his/her will, sometimes even constricting the child, in order to be able to kiss him/her when she/he clearly isn't willing to, be considered sexual assault.
In my country's legislation it isn't...yet...
But people have been talking about it, saying that doing things like that to a small kid, especially when done by a family member, would like teach the kid not to resist when being handled or touched by strangers, thus increasing the likelyhood of being sexually abused in the future.
What's your opinions on the matter?

 

[Shamana]

No i honestly dont think so.

 

[Rose]

It's not sexual abuse, but it's probably not a good thing. Imo it's much better to teach kids that physical contact is a choice for everyone involved as a general thing.
Even if it's just a personal comfort thing, I'd rather kids not learn to completely ignore what their feelings about any specific thing are. If we're going to teach them to respect other people's boundaries (as we should), we should respect their own.

 

[HelpPlease]

No

 

[not_a_robot]

Considering nowadays social standards, would kissing a small kid (2-11 years old) against his/her will, sometimes even constricting the child, in order to be able to kiss him/her when she/he clearly isn't willing to, be considered sexual assault.
In my country's legislation it isn't...yet...
But people have been talking about it, saying that doing things like that to a small kid, especially when done by a family member, would like teach the kid not to resist when being handled or touched by strangers, thus increasing the likelyhood of being sexually abused in the future.
What's your opinions on the matter?

If you love someone, you don't use force to make them do things that make them uncomfortable.

Forced physical affection is disgusting no matter who is doing it or why, yes it is assault.
Egomaniacs and relatives always act like it's ok because they "mean well", but that's bullshit. The c.victim doesn't give a shit if you "mean well".
Doing it to kids is just bullying someone small and weak.

I'm autistic, I only like being touched in certain circumstances.
My family was disgustingly affectionate (with many child molesters in the bunch).
Any time I resisted their constant disgusting grabbing and touching, they would beat me and scream
"We are just loving on you! Let us love on you! YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO LET PEOPLE LOVE ON YOU!"

Twenty years later they acted upset that I became a prostitute.
Probably they were just mad that I was finally able to define my own terms for how to allow people to touch me.

Forced affection is not affection at all, it is disgusting assault.
Like rape, IT IS JUST ABOUT POWER, not affection.
If you love someone, you don't force your affection on them. Disgusting.

This is one of the many instances of sociopathic behavior being normalized in neurotypical society.
So, so SICK.

 

[WOODESITY]

Child being manipulated to do these things and parents and others who are saying/asking to kiss or whatever it is it's damaging and it affects child since child learns that it's acceptable and parents and other encouraging and asking and if child doesn't do that child knows there will be consequences

and consequences will be that child will be suffering if not doing specific things and even they don't do they're still suffering, and it's easier for child to do such things To reduce suffering, now they're being manipulated and it's still suffering..

How can one say that doing such things isn't evil and immoral since it only causes suffering to child

Now child is suffering/being manipulated/tortured etc.. to fulfill desires of those who asked

 

[DreamCatcher]

I think there is some level of nurturing and positive hormone generation that can help family bonding, especially with younger children. There was a study that showed that rats who had more positive physical contact with parents were calmer and had less stress as adults.

Lick Your Rats

Genetic Science Learning Center

learn.genetics.utah.edu

It literally changes their DNA in the early stages of life, and beyond that it probably helps both sides too with positive bonding chemicals. Having positive and supportive physical contact with loving caring family is a REALLY good thing for long term health and happiness, and I fear such a law banning such contact would cause much more harm than good.

The difference is literally a child that would be stressed and on edge for their entire life because their parent wasn't able to nurture them and the genetics assume a hostile world. Or a world that allowed such "care" and thus told the genetics that it's okay to be calmer and not be as alert or ready to fight or flight.

That being said I think once a child is old enough to say no, parents and other family should respect their choice.

 

[not_a_robot]

I think there is some level of nurturing and positive hormone generation that can help family bonding, especially with younger children. There was a study that showed that rats who had more positive physical contact with parents were calmer and had less stress as adults.

Lick Your Rats

Genetic Science Learning Center

learn.genetics.utah.edu

It literally changes their DNA in the early stages of life, and beyond that it probably helps both sides too with positive bonding chemicals.

I suppose once a child is old enough to say no, parents should choose to accept their choice. Having positive and supportive physical contact with loving caring family is a REALLY good thing for long term health and happiness, and I fear such a law banning such contact would cause much more harm than good.

Forced contact has none of the positive effects you describe.
It is traumatic. It creates a Trauma Bond, setting the child up to let themself be abused later.

 

[marcusuk63]

A lot of people using the word manipulation yet no one ever complains about taking a child to church to force their deluded views and beliefs of i mystical being in the sky that will send them to burn in hell for eternity if they don't behave .... but what do i know religious belief have never physically or mentally hurt anyone

 

[DreamCatcher]

Forced contact has none of the positive effects you describe.
It is traumatic. It creates a Trauma Bond, setting the child up to let themself be abused later.

Forced contact is awful, and it should be a crime.

I'm just not sure how you'd enforce it, most kids don't even remember their childhood. I suppose once they're old enough to remember, and old enough to contact someone to help them they should have the legal right and ability to protect themselves from harmful family.

What's really sad is a kid calling CPS on their parents, grandparents, or priest for unwanted touching would probably be laughed at and ignored, even if it was a crime. I think the world is starting to pay more attention now, but a lot of harm has already been done to so many people.

I think the best option in the future is to setup a hotline not just for kids, but for people of any age, "call this number and you'll never have to see your family again if you don't want to". Give the caller a safe place to sleep and food until they find somewhere else, or get help finding somewhere else. It might also protect old folks from elder abuse, and really every generation needs a safety option like that, young, old, or inbetween. That might even be a huge help for suicidal people that just need a safe place to stay for a while.

The world really needs something like that.

 

[marcusuk63]

Ask your baby's permission before changing diaper, says sexual consent expert Deanna Carson

Deanne Carson argued that parents should establish a culture of consent with their children by asking permission before changing a diaper.

www.newsweek.com

...
i agree you should not force it , if a grandparent wants a hug and the grandchild doesn't leave it at that but don't you think the world is fucked enough without making another mountain out of a molehill , i'm pretty sure it's not an epidemic and will spawn serial killers . kids nowadays are little bastards with no respect and can get away with anything because they are untouchable because of stupid people like her in the video

 

[crimea_river]

I wouldn't personally see it as sexual abuse, unless there were any other signs.

However, as a child, I picked the person that I was ok with (physical contact wise) and really was very uncomfortable if another adult initiated any. I would pull away etc and iirc that was generally accepted.

My view is that you should never enforce any kind of public 'bond' with a child, bond's are developed nauturally. This doesn't always happen and a child shouldn't be shamed in any way if they don't wish to participate.

 

[inconsequential]

It teaches the child that their boundaries do not matter & that they do not have bodily autonomy, setting them up for horrible situations later in life.

 

[not_a_robot]

The headline of this thread is very different from the OP description.
It's the constricting/grabbing described that triggered me.
But even the kiss-the-cheek ritual is gross if it's forced. My family did that too, and even though I complied they would bark at me for doing it "wrong".

"STOP ACTING LIKE YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IT! DO IT RIGHT! KISS ME!"

 

[inconsequential]

The headline of this thread is very different from the OP description.
It's the constricting/grabbing described that triggered me.
But even the kiss-the-cheek ritual is gross if it's forced. My family did that too, and even though I complied they would bark at me for doing it "wrong".

"STOP ACTING LIKE YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IT! DO IT RIGHT! KISS ME!"

Did your family make you kiss the dead bodies of family members at their respective funerals? Or is that just me?

 

[not_a_robot]

Did your family make you kiss the dead bodies of family members at their respective funerals? Or is that just me?

Holy shit.

 

[inconsequential]

Holy shit.

I still remember how a dead body feels.
They would force me, every time. I remember I didn't want to kiss my grandpa's body, I told them so & that it was just a body & he wasn't here, and they made me do it while crying.

 

[not_a_robot]

David Sedaris said it best in the SantaLand diaries.
"I watched a woman slap her daughter. 'rachel, you stop crying and go sit on that man's lap!'"

 

[Help_Me]

We have (or at least had) such thing in our culture, but nobody actually forced someone and it was just something like good manners and showing respect to granny. And to be honest, this was not often, as far as I remember we just showed our love without any physical contact. So yea, I don't consider this as an abuse, but only if nobody forced to do that. My grandmother and my grandfather were amazing and absolutely kind-hearted people, too bad they both passed away when I was very young. I still miss them...

 

[Divine Trinity]

Considering nowadays social standards, would kissing a small kid (2-11 years old) against his/her will, sometimes even constricting the child, in order to be able to kiss him/her when she/he clearly isn't willing to, be considered sexual assault.
In my country's legislation it isn't...yet...
But people have been talking about it, saying that doing things like that to a small kid, especially when done by a family member, would like teach the kid not to resist when being handled or touched by strangers, thus increasing the likelyhood of being sexually abused in the future.
What's your opinions on the matter?

This whole "consent" crap spreading around is at best silly. Wait until you need consent to make eye contact because it makes some people anxious, or gender segregated elevators...

Physical or sexual abuse, exploitation, and/or predation is universally condenmed to some degree, but we like to argue over details of what is or isn't in what category, it's a waste of time. While SJWs and (a rather specific group of) feminist sit on a virtue pedestal dictating what is or isn't "acceptable behavior" - how they feel people should act, we all completely miss the REAL question: how people WILL act.

Until we live in a anarchist utopia where everyone is able to behave autonomously (unlikely), we have to compromise on when it's acceptable to use hierarchal power to coerce others, and what kind of force should be tolerated. This aspect of human progress has degraded immensely over time, to the point of virtual non-existence.

Let's go back to the question: Is it acceptable for a grandmother (or a close elderly female relative) to coerce children into what society deems an intimate act of affection? Do we deem this acceptable for any other authority figure to do? Why does a grandmother deserve the power to compel others to act against their will? How will she respond to resistance (the method of coercion).

And of course reactionaries will say something along the lines of "is it Ok for grandfathers or uncles to force nieces or grandaughters to kiss them?" -This is reactionary because identity alone isn't a justification for an action. It's also a strawman, nevermind it adding nothing to the discussion.

The current system produces and to an extent requires predatory behavior for us to survive, we only look at the extreme results of capitalism and imperialism while ignoring the more subtle forms coercion. From my PoV, if you think grandma can force a kiss, you should also believe it's Ok for a foreign government to rig elections or dethrone/assassinate elected officials. It's the same principle.