Discussion Why is there a ‘moral obligation’ to keep someone alive?

[MeltingHeart]

Why do people feel the need to keep someone alive? If that person is desperately unhappy/ depressed...whatever you want to call it...like severely & long-term, not just a temporary crisis. Well if yr not religious...so therefore don't deem it to be a mortal sin or whatever & if prior to that you have shown little regard for this person welfare, no care or love - basically not been in their life at all, why the sudden so called "care" and "interference' to keep this person alive?! My only conclusion that it could be some moral obligation OR not wanting to have to shoulder any guilt when this person ctb. They would rather force you to remain alive & suffer - just for own so called 'piece of mind' to me that is the ultimate cruelty & once again indicates to me the self-serving nature of some human beings...todays vent done...I put in discussion but prob should have been in vent reading it back!

 

[WhiteDespair]

From personal experience, if someone wants to CtB, then let them.

People get 1-2 attempts with compassion.
Edit: In retrospect the above statement may not be correct.

 

[MeltingHeart]

From personal experience, if someone wants to CtB, then let them.

People get 1-2 attempts with compassion.

How'd ya mean 1-2 attempts with compassion?
Just feel like the people that took my sn want it to atleast "look like" they tried to stop me- but I think they would be ok with me wondering off somewhere to hang myself- cos atleast then they can think- oh well there was nothing we possibly could have done to stop them! Seems so so cruel

 

[deathbyginger]

I think there may be a few reasons:

1. Morality: Thinking that supporting suicide is wrong based on how you've been raised
2. Social: Not supporting because of possible social repercussions (eg. you feel that people will judge you for supporting someone's shocker)
3. Legal: Not supporting because of legal repercussions (charges vary between countries, states, etc)
4. Survival Instinct: I believe the survival instinct for ourselves is present just as much for the survival instinct of others. So perhaps people are just trying to save others

In my opinion, if someone wishes to find peace, then I will support that because they deserve peace.

 

[WhiteDespair]

I had the distinct pleasure of my mom's CtB attempts. One night, she fell out of bed after taking all her psych meds. This was about 3 tries in. I was just tired of it at that point. My compassion for it was gone.

It's one of the reasons I like this site. It helps you get it right so you don't put your family and friends through that. It's one of the reason I don't have any official CtB attempts. I'd either want to get it right or have a happy "accident." 2 happy "accidents" showed me that they're unreliable. I found this site looking for how much Fluoxetine would be lethal.

Although, if it was someone other than my mother I could have a different reaction. For her my compassion just died.

I don't really know why people feel an obligation to keep people alive. My mother's penultimate attempt was stopped out of a sense of duty and, potentially, legal reprecussions due to inactivity.

 

[MeltingHeart]

I think there may be a few reasons:

1. Morality: Thinking that supporting suicide is wrong based on how you've been raised
2. Social: Not supporting because of possible social repercussions (eg. you feel that people will judge you for supporting someone's shocker)
3. Legal: Not supporting because of legal repercussions (charges vary between countries, states, etc)
4. Survival Instinct: I believe the survival instinct for ourselves is present just as much for the survival instinct of others. So perhaps people are just trying to save others

In my opinion, if someone wishes to find peace, then I will support that because they deserve peace.

All very valid points indeed! I guess I'm just upset on a personal level- as I think they would be ok if I went on another method that wouldn't have direct link to them- I.e that i had sn delivered to their house. I should have got up earlier. Was stupid I know :(

 

[woxihuanni]

I had the distinct pleasure of my mom's CtB attempts. One night, she fell out of bed after taking all her psych meds. This was about 3 tries in. I was just tired of it at that point. My compassion for it was gone.

It's one of the reasons I like this site. It helps you get it right so you don't put your family and friends through that. It's one of the reason I don't have any official CtB attempts. I'd either want to get it right or have a happy "accident." 2 happy "accidents" showed me that they're unreliable. I found this site looking for how much Fluoxetine would be lethal.

Although, if it was someone other than my mother I could have a different reaction. For her my compassion just died.

I don't really know why people feel an obligation to keep people alive. My mother's penultimate attempt was stopped out of a sense of duty and, potentially, legal reprecussions due to inactivity.

How did your mother destroy compassion? I assume it was not only because she failed multiple times.

 

[Corraled]

Why do people feel the need to keep someone alive? If that person is desperately unhappy/ depressed...whatever you want to call it...like severely & long-term, not just a temporary crisis. Well if yr not religious...so therefore don't deem it to be a mortal sin or whatever & if prior to that you have shown little regard for this person welfare, no care or love - basically not been in their life at all, why the sudden so called "care" and "interference' to keep this person alive?! My only conclusion that it could be some moral obligation OR not wanting to have to shoulder any guilt when this person ctb. They would rather force you to remain alive & suffer - just for own so called 'piece of mind' to me that is the ultimate cruelty & once again indicates to me the self-serving nature of some human beings...todays vent done...I put in discussion but prob should have been in vent reading it back!

Its not true that people feel the need to keep others alive. They are more than happy to let you die from preventable causes, but they specifically are opposed to suicide. Convoluted random logic always follows regarding active means, passive means or the semantic difference between euthanasia and assisted suicide.

 

[MeltingHeart]

I had the distinct pleasure of my mom's CtB attempts. One night, she fell out of bed after taking all her psych meds. This was about 3 tries in. I was just tired of it at that point. My compassion for it was gone.

It's one of the reasons I like this site. It helps you get it right so you don't put your family and friends through that. It's one of the reason I don't have any official CtB attempts. I'd either want to get it right or have a happy "accident." 2 happy "accidents" showed me that they're unreliable. I found this site looking for how much Fluoxetine would be lethal.

Although, if it was someone other than my mother I could have a different reaction. For her my compassion just died.

I don't really know why people feel an obligation to keep people alive. My mother's penultimate attempt was stopped out of a sense of duty and, potentially, legal reprecussions due to inactivity.

Due to inactivity? As in no one actively stepped in to stop it?

Its not true that people feel the need to keep others alive. They are more than happy to let you die from preventable causes, but they specifically are opposed to suicide. Convoluted random logic always follows regarding active means, passive means or the semantic difference between euthanasia and assisted suicide.

What could preventable causes be? Excuse my ignorance if I am missing a point...

 

[WhiteDespair]

How did your mother destroy compassion? I assume it was not only because she failed multiple times.

Single mother. Abusive, drunk and neglectful. I was the one to walk in on it or be called about it. I remember my lovely aunt insinuating that I was the cause of my mother slicing her wrist. I remember the fear I felt when I walked into the house and seeing an open bottle of wine and blood on the counter. I remember her driving into a wall and falling out of the attic. These last 3 may have not been actual CtB attempts and I do not know that these were legit. I remember hearing her fall out of bed after taking all the psych meds, having to change her clothes and make her presentable for the paramedics and police. I remember coming home from work and hearing a strange noise coming from her room. Her breathing was off and she was unresponsive from all the alcohol she drank. Then, she got it right. Dammit, it is a 4-7 range. More than I thought.

In retrospect, I'm jaded by those experiences and shouldn't attribute that to other people. It looks like I found another area she screwed me over.

Thank you for helping me come to that.

Due to inactivity? As in no one actively stepped in to stop it?

What could preventable causes be? Excuse my ignorance if I am missing a point...

Yes, inactivity as I knew she was CtB and I knowingly did nothing to intervene.

 

[deathbyginger]

All very valid points indeed! I guess I'm just upset on a personal level- as I think they would be ok if I went on another method that wouldn't have direct link to them- I.e that i had sn delivered to their house. I should have got up earlier. Was stupid I know :(

I understand your grief, MeltingHeart. I'm sorry that the people in your life don't seem to understand your pain. But remember that we are a community of people going through similar circumstances as you.
You deserve full support on any decision you make. If that be CTB or recovery, you are not alone.
It is totally understandable to be frustrated with the fact that you were so close. You're probably wondering, shouldn't they want you to have a peaceful death? Why yes of course they would if you are leaving, they just don't it in the moment

 

[MeltingHeart]

Single mother. Abusive, drunk and neglectful. I was the one to walk in on it or be called about it. I remember my lovely aunt insinuating that I was the cause of my mother slicing her wrist. I remember the fear I felt when I walked into the house and seeing an open bottle of wine and blood on the counter. I remember her driving into a wall and falling out of the attic. These last 3 may have not been actual CtB attempts and I do not know that these were legit. I remember hearing her fall out of bed after taking all the psych meds, having to change her clothes and make her presentable for the paramedics and police. I remember coming home from work and hearing a strange noise coming from her room. Her breathing was off and she was unresponsive from all the alcohol she drank. Then, she got it right. Dammit, it is a 4-7 range. More than I thought.

In retrospect, I'm jaded by those experiences and shouldn't attribute that to other people. It looks like I found another area she screwed me over.

Thank you for helping me come to that.


Yes, inactivity as I knew she was CtB and I knowingly did nothing to intervene.

ahh ok I get u on that point, but that fair enough- its like people say- at the end of the day, no one can really stop someone from doing it if they really want to...im just annoyed as I got told that- it was my decision if i wanted to do what i wanted to do, know one could stop me- but they did stop me- by taking my parcel away- and they knew I wasnt going to do it where they were- I said I was going to go somewhere for a bit- and it was no risk to anyone else- and yet they did 'stop' me even though they had previously said it was my decision at the end of the day- no I am not allowed to even mention it at all-im banned from talking about it- but i know, i just know...that they wouldnt have a problem with it if I just snuck off somewhere to hang myself-sometimes when they have gone out for a bit and I am still here they seen surprised and even a bit annoyed..like they call my name & when I answer..they will be like...'oh.. your here' (sorry to rant... im just still so upset about my sn being taken)

I understand your grief, MeltingHeart. I'm sorry that the people in your life don't seem to understand your pain. But remember that we are a community of people going through similar circumstances as you.
You deserve full support on any decision you make. If that be CTB or recovery, you are not alone.
It is totally understandable to be frustrated with the fact that you were so close. You're probably wondering, shouldn't they want you to have a peaceful death? Why yes of course they would if you are leaving, they just don't it in the moment

thanks...dont think they could care less about me having a peaceful death...never cared about me in life...can't see why they would care about me in death...no, instead I am left with the option of a scary (for me) more gruesome death instead...yay :(

 

[WhiteDespair]

ahh ok I get u on that point, but that fair enough- its like people say- at the end of the day, no one can really stop someone from doing it if they really want to...im just annoyed as I got told that- it was my decision if i wanted to do what i wanted to do, know one could stop me- but they did stop me- by taking my parcel away- and they knew I wasnt going to do it where they were- I said I was going to go somewhere for a bit- and it was no risk to anyone else- and yet they did 'stop' me even though they had previously said it was my decision at the end of the day- no I am not allowed to even mention it at all-im banned from talking about it- but i know, i just know...that they wouldnt have a problem with it if I just snuck off somewhere to hang myself-sometimes when they have gone out for a bit and I am still here they seen surprised and even a bit annoyed..like they call my name & when I answer..they will be like...'oh.. your here' (sorry to rant... im just still so upset about my sn being taken)

thanks...dont think they could care less about me having a peaceful death...never cared about me in life...can't see why they would care about me in death...no, instead I am left with the option of a scary (for me) more gruesome death instead...yay :(

If true, that behavior is despicable.

 

[woxihuanni]

Single mother. Abusive, drunk and neglectful. I was the one to walk in on it or be called about it. I remember my lovely aunt insinuating that I was the cause of my mother slicing her wrist. I remember the fear I felt when I walked into the house and seeing an open bottle of wine and blood on the counter. I remember her driving into a wall and falling out of the attic. These last 3 may have not been actual CtB attempts and I do not know that these were legit. I remember hearing her fall out of bed after taking all the psych meds, having to change her clothes and make her presentable for the paramedics and police. I remember coming home from work and hearing a strange noise coming from her room. Her breathing was off and she was unresponsive from all the alcohol she drank. Then, she got it right. Dammit, it is a 4-7 range. More than I thought.

In retrospect, I'm jaded by those experiences and shouldn't attribute that to other people. It looks like I found another area she screwed me over.

Thank you for helping me come to that.


Yes, inactivity as I knew she was CtB and I knowingly did nothing to intervene.

My heart goes out to you, you seem to have parented your parent. I have that unpleasant experience, too, though the way I had to do it was different. Sending you a big hug

 

[MeltingHeart]

My heart goes out to you, you seem to have parented your parent. I have that unpleasant experience, too, though the way I had to do it was different. Sending you a big hug

I hear you both! I was a parent to a parent- did you watch Ab Fab? friends used to say my mother was like the Eddie character, cos she took drugs and drank loads and went clubbing all night etc..some people thought it was kind of just 'funny' and I used to try and act like that too (to cover up my true sadness and embarassment)-joke about it to my few friends and play the serious, grumpy Saffy role-from the show, even though the reality was so so far removed from a silly tv comedy, there was nothing funny or fun about the situation, nothing at all.

 

[deathbyginger]

ahh ok I get u on that point, but that fair enough- its like people say- at the end of the day, no one can really stop someone from doing it if they really want to...im just annoyed as I got told that- it was my decision if i wanted to do what i wanted to do, know one could stop me- but they did stop me- by taking my parcel away- and they knew I wasnt going to do it where they were- I said I was going to go somewhere for a bit- and it was no risk to anyone else- and yet they did 'stop' me even though they had previously said it was my decision at the end of the day- no I am not allowed to even mention it at all-im banned from talking about it- but i know, i just know...that they wouldnt have a problem with it if I just snuck off somewhere to hang myself-sometimes when they have gone out for a bit and I am still here they seen surprised and even a bit annoyed..like they call my name & when I answer..they will be like...'oh.. your here' (sorry to rant... im just still so upset about my sn being taken)

thanks...dont think they could care less about me having a peaceful death...never cared about me in life...can't see why they would care about me in death...no, instead I am left with the option of a scary (for me) more gruesome death instead...yay :(

I believe there is good possibility of you resourcing the materials needed for a peaceful CTB. Don't give up OP, there's hope for you to find peace in this cruel world

 

[WhiteDespair]

My heart goes out to you, you seem to have parented your parent. I have that unpleasant experience, too, though the way I had to do it was different. Sending you a big hug

Hug returned. Hope the experience wasn't as bad.

 

[Untitled]

I think it originally came from Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and then it just stuck with us.

In those religions, it is a grave sin to prevent life in any way. Even using a condom or masturbating or being gay is considered a sin, because this nullifies the potential for the man to impregnate a woman. Abortion is a sin too.

In ancient times there were other religions that allowed and even caused the death of other members of that religion. In ancient Carthage, for example, human sacrifices are believed to have occurred. I've heard similar things about the Aztecs.

I really think our religion is responsible for promoting the moral concept of the sanctity of life as a concept of absolute importance. There is no other reason I can think of that so many people would prefer keeping others alive against their will. Most people have no problems with putting their suffering dog to sleep, after all.

 

[WhiteDespair]

I hear you both! I was a parent to a parent- did you watch Ab Fab? friends used to say my mother was like the Eddie character, cos she took drugs and drank loads and went clubbing all night etc..some people thought it was kind of just 'funny' and I used to try and act like that too (to cover up my true sadness and embarassment)-joke about it to my few friends and play the serious, grumpy Saffy role-from the show, even though the reality was so so far removed from a silly tv comedy, there was nothing funny or fun about the situation, nothing at all.

I never saw the show. I have a better understanding. My condolences. That sounds awful.

 

[woxihuanni]

Hug returned. Hope the experience wasn't as bad.

Thank you My mother made me her confidante, shrink and emotional punchbag from a little kid. Also her literal punchbag until 6 or 7. The beatings were nothing compared to her neurotic rantings, fighting me as if I was her romantic partner, placing life decisions on my 10 year old shoulders, silent treatments, threatening to kill herself, threatening to take me out of school and lock me up in chains in a loony bin.

I can't really wrap my head around the idea of being a child. Who the fuck gets to be a child, I mean, the luxury..

 

[Brick In The Wall]

I think there may be a few reasons:

1. Morality: Thinking that supporting suicide is wrong based on how you've been raised
2. Social: Not supporting because of possible social repercussions (eg. you feel that people will judge you for supporting someone's shocker)
3. Legal: Not supporting because of legal repercussions (charges vary between countries, states, etc)
4. Survival Instinct: I believe the survival instinct for ourselves is present just as much for the survival instinct of others. So perhaps people are just trying to save others

In my opinion, if someone wishes to find peace, then I will support that because they deserve peace.

I feel like this is a big part of it. I also feel like it's a control issue, the government has to maintain order to keep the system in place and everyone working like drones. You can't pay taxes if you're dead.

 

[MeltingHeart]

I think it originally came from Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and then it just stuck with us.

In those religions, it is a grave sin to prevent life in any way. Even using a condom or masturbating or being gay is considered a sin, because this nullifies the potential for the man to impregnate a woman. Abortion is a sin too.

In ancient times there were other religions that allowed and even caused the death of other members of that religion. In ancient Carthage, for example, human sacrifices are believed to have occurred. I've heard similar things about the Aztecs.

I really think our religion is responsible for promoting the moral concept of the sanctity of life as a concept of absolute importance. There is no other reason I can think of that so many people would prefer keeping others alive against their will. Most people have no problems with putting their suffering dog to sleep, after all.

but even none religious people think the same- but yeah, its prob just those moral views that have filtered down from religion anyway and then seep into the common consciousness. So true about the pet analogy-ive seen some good banners from pro-choice rallys, like- 'my cat can get Nembutal why cant I?' and I wanna go like Fido' ha!

I feel like this is a big part of it. I also feel like it's a control issue, the government has to maintain order to keep the system in place and everyone working like drones. You can't pay taxes if you're dead.

yeah thats true..plus if you have depression your also more likely to be self-medicating with alcohol (taxed), tobacco (taxed), etc...

 

[WhiteDespair]

Thank you My mother made me her confidante, shrink and emotional punchbag from a little kid. Also her literal punchbag until 6 or 7. The beatings were nothing compared to her neurotic rantings, fighting me as if I was her romantic partner, placing life decisions on my 10 year old shoulders, silent treatments, threatening to kill herself, threatening to take me out of school and lock me up in chains in a loony bin.

I can't really wrap my head around the idea of being a child. Who the fuck gets to be a child, I mean, the luxury..

That sounds familiar enough and pisses me off. Everything you said, I can relate to and see a comparison. One if my earliest memories is self-harm after she started crying because I refused to study. 2 others are nightmares. The last is asking where my dad was.

A term for this is: spousification - where the mother attributes spousal roles, feelings, etc. to the child.

I am legitimately angry.

I've added another mark to the list of people who need to "accidentally" fall down the stairs.

 

[woxihuanni]

That sounds familiar enough and pisses me off. Everything you said, I can relate to and see a comparison. One if my earliest memories is self-harm after she started crying because I refused to study. 2 others are nightmares. The last is asking where my dad was.

A term for this is: spousification - where the mother attributes spousal roles, feelings, etc. to the child.

I am legitimately angry.

I've added another mark to the list of people who need to "accidentally" fall down the stairs.

I don't know why, but your anger made me happy. Protected sort of feeling? So I laughed at the accidental fall idea.

 

[Sweet emotion]

Well there should definitely be a place in every state that can euthanize people who have chronic health problems. Ones that are so painful that they're inhumane. Like mine. Complex regional pain syndrome. Or MS. Or MD. Or dementia and Alzheimer's. And if a person is depressed for a certain period of time without any help they should do it too. But people think that death is the worst thing in the world. That's not the case. The worst thing in the world is what we lose while we're alive.

 

[Heart of Ice]

I think it's mainly the belief that if you know a suicidal person and chose to do nothing, you are partially to blame if the person dies, which is at least partially true.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

Ultimately because it is contrary to the natural order to want (or more accurately feel the need) to die. All nature cares about is that we produce offspring and then keep those offspring alive until they are old enough to produce more offspring. There is no compassion there.

 

[Darkhaven]

It has to do with our condition as living beings.
As living beings we tend to perceive life as the most valuable "thing" we "own".
We also know, or at least the people who don't believe in an afterlife or reincarnation, that once we are dead, there is no coming back.
So most humans feel compelled to jump in and try to save others from death, because in they way they see it, they are doing the most honorable deed that can be done, and also because it makes them feel like heroes. There is almost always a bit of ego and selfish reasons behind everything a human being does.