Why I'm not vegan

[9BBN]

Because I'm going to die soon anyway.

 

[bluem00n]

 

[Superdeterminist]

I was vegan for about 1 year and recently returned to nonveganism. To be honest, I'm disgusted with myself. I started to find the vegan diet very difficult, I don't know why. I wasn't suffering any noticeable adverse health effects. I'm back to paying for animals to be hurt, and it feels horrible.

I'm sure that veganism/nonveganism aren't choices. Not really. It's something very bizarre. It's like being religious or irreligious. I hope I can return to veganism, because I'm still repulsed by the killing/enslaving of animals. But I don't know if I will.

 

[9BBN]

I was vegan for about 1 year and recently returned to nonveganism. To be honest, I'm disgusted with myself. I started to find the vegan diet very difficult, I don't know why. I wasn't suffering any noticeable adverse health effects. I'm back to paying for animals to be hurt, and it feels horrible.

I'm sure that veganism/nonveganism aren't choices. Not really. It's something very bizarre. It's like being religious or irreligious. I hope I can return to veganism, because I'm still repulsed by the killing/enslaving of animals. But I don't know if I will.

For me being aware of animal suffering is the nail in the coffin for my depression. I'm disgusted with myself as well. I wish I could do a year like you did.

 

[Superdeterminist]

For me being aware of animal suffering is the nail in the coffin for my depression. I'm disgusted with myself as well. I wish I could do a year like you did.

The guilt is unfortunate. I know people who have gone many years, even decades as vegans without much apparent struggle. I'm still subbed to vegan youtubers and listen to their content but I feel like a fraud now doing that. I guess this is another one of the absurd and stupid aspects of life.

 

[Rounded Apathy]

Try to guess my philosophical & dietary inclinations before the end of the post!

While noble and ostensibly a great way to reduce one's impact on the planet and life in general, veganism unfortunately doesn't solve the problem of animal suffering. Unless you're subsisting on a hunter/gatherer diet, maybe direct small-scale agriculture, the fact of the matter is that huuuuge swaths of land are cleared and primed for farm use geared even for vegetable production. This inevitably will lead to animal casualties either directly or indirectly; if animals aren't killed outright, their homes, food sources, or ecological niche may well be greatly disturbed or destroyed to the point of causing their untimely end. Down the line, farmers will also have to ensure the crops aren't eaten before harvest; this may and does lead to things such as trapping and pesticide use which will either kill animals and or insects outright (yeah, insects...agriculture's terrible for them - is bug life worth less than animal life? if so, why? if not, well...), or can cause animal death through bio-accumulation of toxins from eating poisoned insect carcasses.

Then there's the whole matter of global food production/transit. That delicious quinoa power bowl didn't just magically show up in front of you; think of everything that went into that process. Everything. The industrial processes behind the creation of the container it was shipped in. Or the vehicle it was shipped in. Or the fuel for that vehicle. Or the tools, machinery and technology used in the agricultural process. There's a seemingly-infinite chain behind any one of these things which would've necessitated some degree of destruction of natural systems...and at the other end, the waste journey. More shipping in gas-guzzling vehicles. Garbage? Landfill, thousands of years. Recycling? Oftentimes still landfill, but if not, a resource-intensive process to complete (even if better than new production). Compost? Also often still landfill and without a suitable environment, may not actually biodegrade. Or may be contaminated, then eaten by some poor scavenger who subsequently dies.

Maybe the cruellest part of the picture is that in order to free oneself from this huge system, you basically need the land and legislation in order to produce your own food, which, as anyone aware of anything knows, is incredibly hard to come by these days. I live in a megacity of millions of people because I don't drive and couldn't afford a car or place to live in an area rural enough that would allow me to do this, and many are in the same situation. I also don't have the vitality to produce my own food to the scale needed to live off it. And even if I could, I'd have to pay property taxes which means I would have to have some kind of income in order to continue living this way, so I couldn't even focus on what I need to get done to keep myself sustained; I'd also need a "job". One way or another (in many places on earth), we need to keep running on the evil hamster wheels.

Spoiler: My personal stance

I had the inclination to go vegan over six years ago and got serious early 2017. I was very strict, for years, until I started realising and thinking about the things I talked about above. Also had an illuminating experience in a couple of years later Nicaragua where this German traveller thought it the better option to eat a plastic-packed bag of almonds grown in and shipped from drought-stricken California over the eggs that chickens rooting around the hostel were laying. That one broke my brain, or fixed it; the truth is, harm elimination is impossible. Life and death are two sides of the same coin, and each begets the other. What I realised was the only reasonable goal was harm reduction - tricky because there is something empowering, and also easy, about simply deciding one broad category of food items is something you will not consume. It also fosters a sense of identity, both personal and communal, which is of course attractive as a human with an ego who wants to connect to other humans who we deem "like us". But, like everything, reality is far more nuanced and it's more fucking work than we'd like it to be. To that end, I find it hard going with any "label" or "title" but basically I never eat animal flesh, and occasionally do eat animal by-products when they're either produced in a way I feel isn't harmful in the grand scheme (independent farmer's chicken's eggs, etc.), my health would seriously benefit from it (we are omnivores sadly...but what about plant life?), or the product in question would otherwise go to waste.

 

[CTB Dream]

Very sorry thie know how, this cruelty species force kill animal forces sysy live no nembutal human keep reproduct keep kill animal. This really terrible awful, provlem injury damage try vegan hard very damage brain little intact place feel more damage now stuck sick life absurd, this vegan make more damage can cause more damage injury speed dementia etc. sorry animal this cruelcruel species force me injury damag live no method keep kill bill animal all day

 

[9BBN]

What I realised was the only reasonable goal was harm reduction

Have you heard of effective altruism? I think you would find a lot of common ground.

Very sorry thie know how, this cruelty species force kill animal forces sysy live no nembutal human keep reproduct keep kill animal. This really terrible awful, provlem injury damage try vegan hard very damage brain little intact place feel more damage now stuck sick life absurd, this vegan make more damage can cause more damage injury speed dementia etc. sorry animal this cruelcruel species force me injury damag live no method keep kill bill animal all day

I'm very sorry for your pain.

Fwiw, alternative meat is getting better and becoming more popular. I think some day most people won't eat meat anymore.

 

[Rounded Apathy]

Have you heard of effective altruism? I think you would find a lot of common ground.

Only extremely peripherally, in relation to that crypto guy who I think did something illegal. I don't really know the details (of the crime or EA). I'll look into it, thanks.

Honestly I have become extremely wary and weary of most "-ism"s in general, for I've found that a big part of a lot of problems that stem from them is because in them, people think they've found The Answer. An example: Jesus was a revolutionary who opposed the corruption that'd become pretty apparent in Judaism, and it was that very rejection of what had become permissible and status quo that held such importance. But then suddenly you have Christianity; people think it's the answer, but then some dislike and reject something about it, there's a schism and a new branch, ad infinitum.

To me, it's the very process of examination, critique, refinement and improvement that, if anything, is "the answer". Not to say that any established thing is useless, given I've amassed most of my knowledge and opinion from concrete, stable entities like this. But my favourites are things like the philosophies of the Dao or branches of Buddhism that emphasize "the way" or "path"; it's indicative that things are a continuous effort. There isn't even necessarily a destination. We may stop sometimes, for whatever reason, but eventually we have to keep going.

 

[rationaltake]

Try to guess my philosophical & dietary inclinations before the end of the post!

While noble and ostensibly a great way to reduce one's impact on the planet and life in general, veganism unfortunately doesn't solve the problem of animal suffering. Unless you're subsisting on a hunter/gatherer diet, maybe direct small-scale agriculture, the fact of the matter is that huuuuge swaths of land are cleared and primed for farm use geared even for vegetable production. This inevitably will lead to animal casualties either directly or indirectly; if animals aren't killed outright, their homes, food sources, or ecological niche may well be greatly disturbed or destroyed to the point of causing their untimely end. Down the line, farmers will also have to ensure the crops aren't eaten before harvest; this may and does lead to things such as trapping and pesticide use which will either kill animals and or insects outright (yeah, insects...agriculture's terrible for them - is bug life worth less than animal life? if so, why? if not, well...), or can cause animal death through bio-accumulation of toxins from eating poisoned insect carcasses.

Then there's the whole matter of global food production/transit. That delicious quinoa power bowl didn't just magically show up in front of you; think of everything that went into that process. Everything. The industrial processes behind the creation of the container it was shipped in. Or the vehicle it was shipped in. Or the fuel for that vehicle. Or the tools, machinery and technology used in the agricultural process. There's a seemingly-infinite chain behind any one of these things which would've necessitated some degree of destruction of natural systems...and at the other end, the waste journey. More shipping in gas-guzzling vehicles. Garbage? Landfill, thousands of years. Recycling? Oftentimes still landfill, but if not, a resource-intensive process to complete (even if better than new production). Compost? Also often still landfill and without a suitable environment, may not actually biodegrade. Or may be contaminated, then eaten by some poor scavenger who subsequently dies.

Maybe the cruellest part of the picture is that in order to free oneself from this huge system, you basically need the land and legislation in order to produce your own food, which, as anyone aware of anything knows, is incredibly hard to come by these days. I live in a megacity of millions of people because I don't drive and couldn't afford a car or place to live in an area rural enough that would allow me to do this, and many are in the same situation. I also don't have the vitality to produce my own food to the scale needed to live off it. And even if I could, I'd have to pay property taxes which means I would have to have some kind of income in order to continue living this way, so I couldn't even focus on what I need to get done to keep myself sustained; I'd also need a "job". One way or another (in many places on earth), we need to keep running on the evil hamster wheels.

Spoiler: My personal stance

I had the inclination to go vegan over six years ago and got serious early 2017. I was very strict, for years, until I started realising and thinking about the things I talked about above. Also had an illuminating experience in a couple of years later Nicaragua where this German traveller thought it the better option to eat a plastic-packed bag of almonds grown in and shipped from drought-stricken California over the eggs that chickens rooting around the hostel were laying. That one broke my brain, or fixed it; the truth is, harm elimination is impossible. Life and death are two sides of the same coin, and each begets the other. What I realised was the only reasonable goal was harm reduction - tricky because there is something empowering, and also easy, about simply deciding one broad category of food items is something you will not consume. It also fosters a sense of identity, both personal and communal, which is of course attractive as a human with an ego who wants to connect to other humans who we deem "like us". But, like everything, reality is far more nuanced and it's more fucking work than we'd like it to be. To that end, I find it hard going with any "label" or "title" but basically I never eat animal flesh, and occasionally do eat animal by-products when they're either produced in a way I feel isn't harmful in the grand scheme (independent farmer's chicken's eggs, etc.), my health would seriously benefit from it (we are omnivores sadly...but what about plant life?), or the product in question would otherwise go to waste.

Very balanced view. It's not simple. Hence Jainism.

I tend to think that the over-processed over-priced plant-based products currently filling the supermarkets are merely exploiting the trendy middle-classes who have more money than sense. Though maybe my prejudices are showing!

 

[Angst Filled Fuck Up]

Yeah why bother. I love animals and would never hunt or hurt one or whatever, but if that chicken's on the supermarket shelf, it's best I eat it so it didn't die for nothing. It's not like they're going to process less meat because I decided to stop eating it.

 

[rationaltake]

Yeah why bother. I love animals and would never hunt or hurt one or whatever, but if that chicken's on the supermarket shelf, it's best I eat it so it didn't die for nothing. It's not like they're going to process less meat because I decided to stop eating it.

You have a point. Buddhists will not kill any living being to eat it but do gracefully accept and eat any meat they are offered.

 

[actual_fox]

I need B vitamins and cholesterol and I cannot afford to eat pounds of veggies, meat on the other hand is rich in those especially organ meat like liver or heart.
I eat whatever to make myself feel good, because I cannot live in the grey area between suicidality and "life"

Also I cannot produce enough of my cholesterol and cholesterol is key to good mental health. I am sorry for the animals and I have seen many videos from inside of factory. Life is brutal, I hate the world and If It was not for family I would probably not be here.

 

[GreyCTB]

I would not recommend being a vegan to anyone anymore. I was one for the past year and I had 5 cavities (never had cavities before), low energy feeling sleepy by 8pm already and complete loss of libido. You can look online and see that there are many ex vegans who were off even worse than I was

In fact, my friend was a raw vegan for 6 months of this year and he became extremely anorexic and almost died on the diet (his own words)

A women I know was vegan and stopped having periods before the age of 30

I know that factory farming is a problem and veganism is morally better but even if you have B12 etc. you will become malnourished after a year or two. And at that point you just have to accept that you need to eat meat and drink milk to survive.

 

[rationaltake]

I would not recommend being a vegan to anyone anymore. I was one for the past year and I had 5 cavities (never had cavities before), low energy feeling sleepy by 8pm already and complete loss of libido. You can look online and see that there are many ex vegans who were off even worse than I was

In fact, my friend was a raw vegan for 6 months of this year and he became extremely anorexic and almost died on the diet (his own words)

A women I know was vegan and stopped having periods before the age of 30

I know that factory farming is a problem and veganism is morally better but even if you have B12 etc. you will become malnourished after a year or two. And at that point you just have to accept that you need to eat meat and drink milk to survive.

I find I'm perfectly fine being a lactovegetarian but when I was vegan I was ravenously hungry nearly all the time.

 

[Rounded Apathy]

Very balanced view. It's not simple. Hence Jainism.

I tend to think that the over-processed over-priced plant-based products currently filling the supermarkets are merely exploiting the trendy middle-classes who have more money than sense. Though maybe my prejudices are showing!
...
You have a point. Buddhists will not kill any living being to eat it but do gracefully accept and eat any meat they are offered.

Jainism has some legit ideas, though I admittedly am also a fan of why Sikhs carry their sword around . I also always had my misgivings about that aspect of the Buddhist diet...

Nah greenwashing is absolutely a thing. Most people in that demographic are still mindless consumers but it's even worse because now they have this inflated ego about their shopping choices saving the fuckin' world and other such bs. Obviously not everyone is like that but it can be pretty vile.

Yeah why bother. I love animals and would never hunt or hurt one or whatever, but if that chicken's on the supermarket shelf, it's best I eat it so it didn't die for nothing. It's not like they're going to process less meat because I decided to stop eating it.

I mean...yes and no. In a supply and demand system, it's a self fulfilling prophecy if everyone thinks this way. If even half the people in societies where commercially prepared animal products are sold this way reduced their consumption by half, it'd be a massive hit to both the industries that produce as well as resell them. Shops wouldn't want to buy it if it wasn't selling, so the factory farms would process less. Consumers wield a ton of power.

I would not recommend being a vegan to anyone anymore. I was one for the past year and I had 5 cavities (never had cavities before), low energy feeling sleepy by 8pm already and complete loss of libido. You can look online and see that there are many ex vegans who were off even worse than I was

In fact, my friend was a raw vegan for 6 months of this year and he became extremely anorexic and almost died on the diet (his own words)

A women I know was vegan and stopped having periods before the age of 30

I know that factory farming is a problem and veganism is morally better but even if you have B12 etc. you will become malnourished after a year or two. And at that point you just have to accept that you need to eat meat and drink milk to survive.

First, these are fallacies; just because they happened to one or a small number of persons doesn't mean it'll happen to every given person. You can't know whether it was specifically not eating animal products that cause the changes, or any other combination of factors (increase/decrease of other foods or nutrients, life circumstances, etc.)

Vegans compete in the Ironman, are successful bodybuilders, etc. No one who was malnourished can possibly do these things. But raw veganism is a terrible idea in any case. Humans have evolved to eat cooked food and you could never cover necessary nutritional bases eating only raw plants.

As I said in my earlier post, humans are omnivores and we do give up benefits when adopting these diets. If it isn't done the right way it can cause serious issues - there's more than just B12 involved. I also think there certainly are people more and less suited to staying on the diet for whatever physiological reason. But we could all get along fine eating much less animal things.

 

[onewho]

In this physical realm of space & time, life-as-we-know-it feeds on life throughout the foodchain, excepting the plants but that does not make me rank them higher or lower than any other life form when it comes to "deserving to be eaten". Science also cannot possibly claim to truly be able to measure potential consciousness "levels" or "layers" of living beings. There's been plenty of research into plants also (as a collective / tribe) being in apparent communication or "sensation" (incl. damage aka "pain"). Living beings are living beings. So I've done tremendously better (than on a mixed diet) on only fresh fatty ruminant meat (not over-cooked) and butter ad-libitum (for kcals since vast fat reserves are stripped away from meats and thrown out by butchers nowadays) ever since I learned (and then, experientially confirmed for over 9 years now, ie. way longer than any of our bodies' various cell-type and bone regeneration cycle durations) that eating only that (to full satiety whenever having a good appetite) suffices for full nutrition and optimizes whatever maximal physiological wellbeing, mental & mood stability one's body / mind, constitution, other lifestyle habits or drug regimens, and age can possibly furnish.

It is also the only mono food that will each meal be just equally delicious & satisfying without ever getting bored/tired of it. Although be prepared that for long-term sustainability shocking-by-modern-society's-perceptions amounts are called for, between 1-3 lbs such meat per day depending on one's size and activity levels (after some months, repaired/adapted satiety/appetite signalling will signal the amounts quite naturally).

Doesn't prevent all the numerous ills that life or mind can throw at one (hence I too am on here now, lol, but now instead of 9 years ago as I would have been)! But all of those only ever known from agriculture onwards (prior hunting cultures forced on to western food habits during colonializations and its industrialization had plenty to say to the earlier anthropologists and "explorers" back then about all those new unknown afflictions appearing from the forced adoption of plant & farm food in its countless guises and shapes and recipes).

No cavities ever should be reason enough for anyone. Sure, if you like the polish or to wash away coffee stains, brush 'em — or else, leave it be, all cool. I still have cavities from 9 years ago but they never act up either or hurt or infect or grow, and there aren't new ones.

Certainly this regimen would be slightly more in balance with nature and less "cruel" to animals if we just had stayed hunters in the spirit of the prairie native-American tribes (only taking as few bisons as truly needed, and then using all of the animal including skins and hairs and hoofs for all sorts of non-eating uses), or maybe practiced pre-industrial small-scale "organic" animal husbandry, instead of going industrialized, but that's collective choice from centuries ago, not my or your personal guilt.

Certainly plenty of hunting and butchering cultures / techniques across the world I think go straight for the neck arteries — just like many (perhaps most?) of carnivorous predator animal species do. As most here dearly know, stopping that particular blood flow induces rapid loss of consciousness in the brain where animal/human pain suffering seems to "actually occur" (well, as far as anyone can tell).

More about this I posted on this site here. Will be done with the topic by now I guess, am not on a diet-revolution mission hehe. But, while I'm not the prothletising kind and usually keep this my private matter (unlike many in the veg crowd hehe), on here with so many mental and physiological ailments reported by so many, and for many, compounding, I figure whoever might be helped by finding and trying these suggestions might just stumble upon it by serendipity and indeed benefit (certainly not suffer more), and that'd be pretty alright by me. Not making new threads on that though (future beneficiaries if any can do that =), since I can never give any true guarantees or promises about anything to anyone (even myself), just relay years-long personal experience of the subjectively "more than worth it" calibre.