Why does the human brain allow itself to commit suicide?

[lunious]

After millions of years of evolution... the human brain (mine at least) still believs that suicide is the best way to fix life and end its suffering.

 

[Hollowman]

Because it knows when it's time to give up.

 

[tonicer]

I tried killing myself multiple times but i can't do it. I guess my survival instinct is very strong compared to yours. I envy you.

 

[Terrible_Life]

There are some depressed people that can become as depressed as possible but they will never be able to kill themself. Then there are people who can't do it at the beginning but the more pain they endure the less fear will they have about death. By being hurt so much by life they'll be driven to suicide and they'll practice their method until they succeed.

 

[FuneralCry]

For me ceasing to exist will always be the only positive solution, only in non-existence will I be at peace from the terrible, tragic mistake of existence that only ever causes all this cruelty, harm and suffering torturing existing beings, ceasing to exist solves everything for me as after all if I don't exist I cannot suffer.

There is no suffering in the peace of non-existence where all is gone and forgotten and I will just always existing as just being suffering with no limit as to how much one can be tortured, this existence should just never had been imposed and it's just so terrible how humans cause all this harm and torture by imposing his existence. For me existence itself is the true problem, I'd just always prefer the peace of non-existence over being tortured in this existence for decades longer just to face the agony of old age, it's so horrific to me how the torture of existing can continue for so long, there's just so much evil in existing with existing beings tortured in agony every second, all I want is to erase this terrible dreadful existence.

 

[metfan647]

This is very complex and wouldn't know where to begin understanding a lot of the ideas around this. I don't think I honestly believe that suicide is the BEST way to fix my problems. I wouldn't advise someone to do it even if they had the exact same circumstances as me. I think I'm just exceptionally cruel to myself.

I also think ctb is quite a logical thought process for a lot of people. Dealing with mental health issues that are insurmountable and don't allow one to meet the demands required, be that social, societal, consumerist etc.

 

[jengablocks]

i think it might be the opposite ! it's really really hard for most ppl to go through with it even in the face of irreparable or hopeless circumstances ... like all those millions of years of evolution work against u.

i know other animals can experience trauma that severely impacts their way of life ! theres a story of an orangutan who suffered a lot and she couldn't live in the wild . her name is Pony, u can find an article abt the story im sure , but content/trigger warning for

Spoiler

abuse & SA

i remember after they started to care for her they would notice that she would get better for a little while and try to transition her to living without human help, but she eventually just .. gave up . she'd be despondent, her self-preservation would seemingly disappear, she wouldn't socialize with other orangutans .. stuff like that . it struck me becoz of how similar it sounded to human experiences, but at the same time i don't know if another animal has ever taken action to end themselves like humans do as the result of trauma like that and the inability to live with it .

i think i heard that language is a really important tool for our ability to think in the first place, like it lets u put things into words, gives shape to thoughts that would otherwise remain fleeting little electrical signals in the brain.. maybe other animals just lack that . it certainly feels like a curse or even an anomaly to be human for me . like something about this experience is just ... primally wrong . this shouldn't have been able to happen

 

[Tired_birth_1967]

it certainly feels like a curse or even an anomaly to be human for me . like something about this experience is just ... primally wrong . this shouldn't have been able to happen

I have absolutely no doubt about it. That's the worst part of continuing to live. I'm too old to create, to fantasize about the meaning of existence. It's just a pointless wait. There's nothing to rebel against. It's just an indifferent process. I can only accept it. I can also try to interrupt it, but I'm still a hostage to another stupid process.

 

[lunious]

i don't know if another animal has ever taken action to end themselves like humans do as the result of trauma like that and the inability to live with it .

Humans are the only species known to commit suicide. however, while there is no evidence of animals in the wild doing the same, some animals in captivity, such as those in zoos or those that have experienced trauma as you said , have been observed attempting suicide, sometimes in very direct and violent ways.

 

[whywere]

It has always been said that the line between genius and insanity is extremely small.

With that said, I feel that when a human is pushed, no help, laughed at, told to "buck up", that since we are a social animal by nature, then either like our intelligence or something else breaks down the SI factor.

EVERYONE needs help, a friendly smile and voice and when we are in a vacuum and then have "life" pile more on, the brain wants an escape factor.

That is why it is so important that we are family here, loving and looking out for each other.

So, no matter what anyone else says or does, one can come here and find support and love.

Walter

 

[jengablocks]

Humans are the only species known to commit suicide. however, while there is no evidence of animals in the wild doing the same, some animals in captivity, such as those in zoos or those that have experienced trauma as you said , have been observed attempting suicide, sometimes in very direct and violent ways.

ohh thank u for telling me , i didnt know that .. it is a bit comforting to know it reaches further than humans but also a bit cruel . ppl always talk about how unlikely the development of life was like it's something miraculous, but it seems inherently cruel to me. for a force of energy to be able to comprehend that it will fade away eventually, and then have to somehow persevere and see itself to its own end. sort of like the idea that "imperfection is what makes us human," but i think ppl intend to be comforting when they say that. isn't that just .. horribly sad ? i dont get it

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

this is all just my opinions.

1.5 million people attempt suicide per year in the U.S alone. At least 700,000 per year worldwide commit suicide. So the brain does allow it

imo the brain is a learning machine.

Neuoroscientist Eagleman says every experience reprograms the brain a little

what does a 1 day old human know ? imo most of what the human knows , believes etc is due to learning from other people , media , experiences etc.

how many thoughts does a brain have per day? some say 70,000. others like Korba says the human brain can think 4000 words per minute. so a human can learn a lot of things in one day.
-----------------------
also i asked this to ai. and suprisingly ai agreed with what i said :

Me : "a 1 day old human knows hardly anything at all eagleman , merlin donald others say livewired culture etc. a new born doesn't know it will die or what is Death. so imo a new born is not born with a fear of death because they don't know what death is. however maybe born with a fear or flight response and later Death is tied to that fear response"

Ai response :

You're absolutely on the right track—and you've nailed the core premise of
David Eagleman's work in his book
Livewired
.
Your assessment aligns with current neuroscientific and psychological consensus:

• Innate "Reflex" Fears: Newborns are not born with a cognitive "fear of death" because they lack the abstract concepts of self and time required to understand it. Instead, they arrive with only two universal, survival-based fears: the fear of falling and the fear of loud noises. These are reflexive responses—like the Moro reflex—designed to keep them physically safe.
• The "Livewired" Brain: Eagleman argues that human brains arrive "unfinished". Unlike animals that are born with complex "hardwired" survival behaviors, we are livewired—meaning we absorb the culture, language, and specific threats of our environment to complete our development.
• Death as a Learned Concept: As you suspected, the "fear of death" is an abstract, learned fear. It is eventually "tied" to our primal fight-or-flight response once a child develops the cognitive ability to recognize that life can end. Merlin Donald similarly suggests that our higher-level consciousness and culture (what he calls "mimesis" and "external memory") are what allow us to even conceptualize something as complex as mortality.
  National Institutes of Health (NIH) | (.gov) +8

In short, a baby doesn't fear the "end of being"; they fear the sudden drop or the loud bang that threatens their immediate physical integrity.
Psychology Today +1

 

[Ashu]

It kind of doesn't, actually.

 

[singingcrow]

It kind of doesn't, actually.

wdym?

 

[tasmaka]

Im far from educated but..
From my experience i believe its an escape response, like fight or flight, the biological response to get out at all needs.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

It is very much according to evolution that the old, ill and useless members of a community dissapear in order not to be a burdon to society. This is important for the survival of the tribe, and it is also good for the individuals concerned. Who wants to experience the mental and bodily degeneration of old age or caused by a terminal illness? Who wants to be a burdon to others?
Indigenous people practiced senicide, what normally meant, the the old ones accepted their death or even killed themselves.
I am not sure, but I think some animals behave in the same way.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I've also wondered about this. It really doesn't fit with the 'natural' instinct to survive at all costs. There again- if you look at the most basic living organism drive- live long enough to reproduce- we are also able to bypass that one too- some of us are antinatilist.

If you look at it purely in terms of evolution though. Say a proportion of a species develops depression and ideation. The only way that doesn't get passed on is if those people don't reproduce. But- people susceptible to depression and ideation do reproduce. So- if it appeared as a mistake in some of our early ancestors- it wasn't bred out.

We've also pretty much ignored/ bypassed natural selection. We try to ensure the weakest of our species survive- instead of being killed off young. Maybe we've almost 'cultured' certain illnesses because we felt like eugenics sounded too discimatory. Not that I support eugenics but, it explains why maybe more problematic genes are passed on.

I also think we have different parts of the brain, acting in different ways. Our instinct to survive is still very much present- in the more primal parts of the brain. In fact- we have to overcome that bit in order to suicide. But also to supress natural drives too. Living in a civilised society- and recognising we all deserve bodily autonomy- it isn't accepted to just have sex with whoever we want- unless we have their consent. We also likely wouldn't eat an entire cake in public. We may have the drive to do those things but, we are (hopefully) able to control our actions.

I imagine animals are also capable to some degree of doing this. A thirsy antelope will still be anxious about drinking from a lake. Maybe it's instinct that tells it it's vulnerable to predators there but, I imagine a thought process is involved of risk vs. reward. So- I imagine all living creatures have both instincts and thought process informing their behaviour.

I suppose I do feel like humans have developed more enhanced powers of reasoning though. When you think of what we've invented. It goes way beyond using found things in the environment as tools. It makes sense that we have developed higher powers of reasoning. It's how we've become the dominant species here.

It does seem kind of strange that our our brains have effectively turned against us though- in some cases. It would seem that some of the conditions humans suffer with don't help us at all. Yet- these aren't really things we've caught- like a cold. More like the ways our brains are genetically or, how they respond to trauma.

I read once that 'depressed' should be seen as 'deep rest' so- the body/ brains response to a stressful situation is to put itself into neutral almost- to rest. To hide away from people- in order to recover. But then- it would seem it then doesn't aid us to isolate ourselves too long.

Maybe suicide could be viewed through the lens of it being about survival of the fittest. In that the weaker of us take ourselves out. Although- that doesn't really work if they have already reproduced.

Personally though, I think we are a fair way removed from the natural world. We've done all sorts of things to repress our natural instincts. I feel like we're equally cultural and thinking beings as we are natural animals now. As that- we are somewhat capable of determining what takes charge in a situation. At the point of suicide- I imagine it's a whole battle going on between the cerebral cortex and primal brain as in:

Cerebral Cortex Brain: We're finally about to commit suicide. After years of suffering, we're putting an end to this. Just climb over the bridge railings and jump.

Primal Brain: Oh hell no! No you f*cking don't. You're terrified of heights remember? You can't kill us. You're about to experience severe pain and fear- do anything you can to avoid this.

Cerebral Cortex Brain: We have to overcome this- to avoid longer term pain. We'll have to feel that fear and still commit.

It is very much according to evolution that the old, ill and useless members of a community dissapear in order not to be a burdon to society. This is important for the survival of the tribe, and it is also good for the individuals concerned. Who wants to experience the mental and bodily degeneration of old age or caused by a terminal illness? Who wants to be a burdon to others?
Indigenous people practiced senicide, what normally meant, the the old ones accepted their death or even killed themselves.
I am not sure, but I think some animals behave in the same way.

That might explain the action of suicide but, not so much the death drive. I've got the sense when age polls are run here that the majority of people here are pretty young. How does it benefit us or society to want to die? Quite often from the age of childhood? I think many members started having suicidal thoughts before they were even teenagers.

I'm not sure that everyone here doesn't contribute to society also. Maybe they are suicidal because they feel like they can't contribute but then- many of us who can and do contribute are still suicidal because we want out! I'm not sure the suicidal drive is always so altruistic- so as not to burden others. I think it's often because we find life is a burden.

I'm not sure animals do find their life a burden quite so much. They don't appear to anyway. Even those suffering the most extreme hardships. They seem to just get on with it a lot of the time. Of course, there are examples of them just giving up but, it seems like more try to survive- no matter what. Especially when they are young.

Humans are the only species known to commit suicide. however, while there is no evidence of animals in the wild doing the same, some animals in captivity, such as those in zoos or those that have experienced trauma as you said , have been observed attempting suicide, sometimes in very direct and violent ways.

I've wondered about this. I've heard of a few examples. One animal that is known to suffer badly in captivity is the tarsier. It's naturally very shy so- the theory is that the stress of the noise, light etc. of being on display is too much for the poor creature. I think it's been known to smack it's head onto the enclosure or branches and died as a result. Another example are dolphins who have been reported to consciously close their blowholes and suffocate. I believe one also smaked it's head against the concrete pool.

I suppose the trickier question to answer is whether the head banging of the tarsier is a stress response. Similar to how parrots pluck out their own feathers, caged bears rock back and forth. Or- whether the animal realised that it's actions would actually kill it. Did it intend to commit suicide?

I suppose I would be more inclined to believe a dolphin might intentionally do it- because they are more renown for being self aware and highly intelligent. It's so hard to judge though.

It's also struck me that the most known of animal suicides are amongst those in captivity. (The whole lemming thing is an urban myth.) But then- I see humans as animals within captivity too. It's no real wonder we feel as we do when we live such unnatural lives inside concrete boxes.

 

[Tired_birth_1967]

After millions of years of evolution... the human brain (mine at least) still believs that suicide is the best way to fix life and end its suffering.

Life itself shows that the logical way to end suffering is to die. If you observe an elderly person dying of natural causes, you'll notice they try to stay alive, even without reason or motivation. If their brain is still functional, they know there's nothing left to do in life except fulfill physiological needs. Even so, they fight to stay alive.

Is there logic in that? No.

This behavior is an indifferent mechanism that arose with life itself in any species. And without this developed mechanism, life itself wouldn't have been possible (it would have been particularly great). This process occurred slowly, very slowly, over time.

In your case: Your brain tells you that the best way to end suffering is to die.

Is there logic in that? Yes.

What truly causes discussion are the motivations:

terrible psychological traumas (abuse, etc.),
illnesses that make life miserable,
not having enough money,
problems with physical appearance,
relationships that didn't work out,
failures for not having achieved what others have,
brain dysfunction,
feeling of not fitting into society,
existential emptiness because life is, in fact, just a biological process,
etc.

These causes may occur together or separately, and this will make a difference when it comes to interrupting the process of living.

 

[Intoxicated]

Contrary to what some people suggest, we don't have a program to survive at all cost (survival instinct is a fiction), but instead we have a program to seek for more comfort - that is, going from less comfortable states to more comfortable states. In particular, we're stimulated to eat, because satiety is a more comfortable state than hunger, and we're stimulated to procreate, since having sex is a more comfortable state than not having sex. In most cases, seeking for comfort helps us survive, but this is not always so. Transition from unpleasant existence to non-existence via suicide is also going from a less comfortable state to a more comfortable state, which can make suicide appealing and acceptable to us. Committing suicide perfectly fits in the biological program of seeking for comfort, but it's nonsensical from the point of the theory about "surviving at all cost".

A suicidal attempt may fail because of a real immediate degradation in the level of comfort (such as intense pain perceived during the CTB process) or conscious or subconscious worries about potential risks of going from an initially uncomfortable state to even more uncomfortable state, which make following the CTB plan less appealing.

 

[Tired_birth_1967]

Contrary to what some people suggest, we don't have a program to survive at all cost (survival instinct is a fiction), but instead we have a program to seek for more comfort - that is, going from less comfortable states to more comfortable states. In particular, we're stimulated to eat, because satiety is a more comfortable state than hunger, and we're stimulated to procreate, since having sex is a more comfortable state than not having sex. In most cases, seeking for comfort helps us survive, but this is not always so. Transition from unpleasant existence to non-existence via suicide is also going from a less comfortable state to a more comfortable state, which can make suicide appealing and acceptable to us. Committing suicide perfectly fits in the biological program of seeking for comfort, but it's nonsensical from the point of the theory about "surviving at all cost".

A suicidal attempt may fail because of a real immediate degradation in the level of comfort (such as intense pain perceived during the CTB process) or conscious or subconscious worries about potential risks of going from an initially uncomfortable state to even more uncomfortable state, which make following the CTB plan less appealing.

It's an interesting theory, but I can't see how the SI could be fiction. It's everywhere, it's easily observable. And probably without this mechanism we wouldn't even be here. But anyway, it doesn't matter much. Fiction or not, we're still here and we wouldn't want to be.

 

[Intoxicated]

It's an interesting theory, but I can't see how the SI could be fiction. It's everywhere, it's easily observable.

It's not observable. You can observe some particular behavior, but you can't observe its connection to SI - such a connection can only be guessed.

And probably without this mechanism we wouldn't even be here.

We do have mechanisms that help us survive, but SI is a perverted way of describing those mechanisms. It's like saying that automobiles move because they have "instinct of movement". How many useful decisions can we make based on such a wonderful explanation?