Discussion Why do pro lifers consider death to be the worst thing ever?

[ijustwishtodie]

I don't get it. I personally think that death is the best thing ever but, even if many people were to not agree with that, surely they should still be able to at least understand that death is better than suffering horrifically to no end? Yet that isn't what we see in society as many people seem to prefer suffering horrifically to no end instead of taking the peaceful way out. Sure, I will admit that the phrase "there are some fates worse than death" exists but I've only really seen people use that phrase for fictional scenarios instead of real life scenarios.

I understand the idea of death being scary to many people (even though I don't think it's something to be scared about) but how on earth can people always choose life over death!? It's just so absurd and shocking to me. Some of these people who want life over death are suffering horrifically themselves due to cancer or old age or some random chronic condition. It's actually just so baffling to me

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

My Death / non-existence is the best thing to me by a trillion times

Only in non-existence forever can u be guaranteed never to suffer long lasting constant unbearable pain.

Any sentient animal including a human can suffer unbearably any day . That can't happen in non-existence. So Non-existence is better than being alive

1 nano-second After Death is non-existence forever .

Non-existence means all my problems solved instantly and forever . Never any pain , suffering, problems , work, nor bad memories ever, never any of the many horrible things in life and this evil world

Life is bad for many reasons on top of reasons

U have to suffer and work hard every day for no objective reason just to exist under threat of extreme torture

No one can convince me there's an objective reason why I or any sentient animal should have to live or want to live another second in this prison hell

 

[Forever Sleep]

I suppose they must have things in life they still cherish more- relationships maybe. Their families. I don't know. I don't understand it either!

 

[ham and potatoes]

surely they should still be able to at least understand that death is better than suffering horrifically to no end?

And I bet most of them would have no problem putting their old, suffering dog down.
But you mention something like assisted suicide, and somehow they have a different few on it.
Hypocritical to say the least

 

[moonoverthesea]

Because they never suffered as we do themselves, and they'd rather not think about the possibility - de facto pretending it does not exist. Then, they project their view on everyone else, and can't put themselves in the shoes of who is suffering so much that they want to die, because realizing such a level of pain exists is scary and it's easier to pretend it does not and death is the worst thing ever.

 

[Unspoken7612]

Most people very firmly do not think death is the worst thing imaginable. Mind, I can only really speak for the UK:

Public opinion - Dignity in Dying

Every parliamentary constituency in Great Britain backs assisted dying

www.dignityindying.org.uk

Things might be different in other countries.

But there are some people who are terrified of dying. Death is the end. Amongst other things, it is the extinction of hope. People in terrible situations hope that they will get better. We have a deep-set fear of dying that it takes quite a lot to overcome, and once you do overcome it, well...

It isn't too hard to see why some people value their lives above all else. And honestly - that's their prerogative. Let them.

 

[Hvergelmir]

And I bet most of them would have no problem putting their old, suffering dog down.

My dogs have kept me alive so far. They've been of enough importance for me that I'm prepared to take a lot of suffering before abandoning them.
Putting my old suffering dog down is the single most painful thing I've done as an adult. I'm sure she would have gone through a lot more suffering before giving up life, had I allowed it.

Suicide is only an option if your suffering outweighs your love, care, and general sense of importance. For most people that means that they are prepared to take a lot of suffering.

 

[Giraffe]

I don't get it. I personally think that death is the best thing ever but, even if many people were to not agree with that, surely they should still be able to at least understand that death is better than suffering horrifically to no end? Yet that isn't what we see in society as many people seem to prefer suffering horrifically to no end instead of taking the peaceful way out. Sure, I will admit that the phrase "there are some fates worse than death" exists but I've only really seen people use that phrase for fictional scenarios instead of real life scenarios.

I understand the idea of death being scary to many people (even though I don't think it's something to be scared about) but how on earth can people always choose life over death!? It's just so absurd and shocking to me. Some of these people who want life over death are suffering horrifically themselves due to cancer or old age or some random chronic condition. It's actually just so baffling to me

I think most people are actually more reasonable than this. Some people on this site think that most people are unchangeably anti-suicide, but I don't think that is true. If a person sat someone down, explained the situation, explained their personal struggles and why this person feels the need to do this, I feel like most people will arrive at the same logical conclusion. Keep in mind, I've never done this, so maybe I am wrong and people really are like that.

 

[supremelimbo]

A lot of what people have said here is true but I also feel like it boils down to selfishness. Sometimes people want to act like they care so they can feel better about themselves and that they "at least did something." Also, people generally don't want people they like to die, but they fail to consider our suffering. It's kinda strange since people are mostly OK with euthanizing their pets to prevent needless suffering

 

[BoredNTired]

I watched a lecture that explained things through body container theories. the most common is the positive container theory which believes that life is inherently positive and truly significant suffering must be present to overcome that for it to be right to end. Pro lifers tend to believe the fantastic container perspective, a step even beyond the positive container theory, where just living is such an inherent good that no amount of suffering can make the end of it justified. Personally I believe the neutral container theory, where no life has any intrinsic value positive or negative and only the experience that fills it defines it, enough negative through its total span (past, present, and estimated future) and it can end and enough positive meaning they should go on. There's also the negative container theory, which is essentially the reverse of the positive, and says life in inherently a bad thing that usually we would be better off without. It's a lot better explained here, and I think it's worth a watch as it's a surprising non-judgmental and neutral look at the concept of the morality and logic of people who CTB

 

[PlannedforPeru]

I think it depends on the "pro-lifer" that's in question, is the imagined person explicitly and devoutly pro-life or closer to the belief of the average individual. If it's the latter, I personally believe painting them to be pro-life would be a bit of a strawman (for lack of a better term, I mean no offense). I make this distinction because I've often seen discussion on these forums mischaracterizing those who sit in the middle of the bell-curve. I'd strongly believe if you sat a large number of people down picked at random, the overwhelming majority would concede that death would be a preferable alternative to a guaranteed agonizing life.

The differing factor from the sentiments that are repeated on here is that their line for what could be considered a valid circumstance for committing suicide is way shorter. The circumstances of which are made on an evaluation of things primarily material: physical health, wealth, relationships, and so on and so fourth. Mental anguish is a less quantifiable, more abstract attribute which makes it feel less real, harder to quantify. The conditions for them would have to be something like a suicidal, flayed, terminally ill, crucified person to pass the "what is acceptable" line whereas for us it could be enough feeling suicidal over getting a wrong McDonalds order (quoted from some other post).

SaSu is a diverse place, with people from all different circumstances unified by our ideology of anti-anti-suicide. So, we recognize that the reasons for desiring death or non-existence appears to be seemingly infinite, regardless of material conditions; but that conclusion is further muddled by the element of individuality as what may work for one may not for another given unique preferences, tolerances, and more. So, you're either put upon the path of finding whatever that is if it exists (i.e. recovery) or quitting the game altogether.

If I had to make an assumption-based profile on the mean:

- Their present subjective meaning or fulfillment outweighs any suffering or estimated future potential suffering. As subjectively experienced, they now know that life satisfaction can exist (caveat: to them), and their hope extends that same capability to others.
- The influence of cultural stigma surrounding suicide and largely death in general generates fear (noxious stimuli), fear of unknown can supplement this.

There's so so many reasons that play into this and my reply is a huge fuckin mess, trying to condense all of them into a reply would be a herculean task. If I could try my best to simplify this, we as humans are all trying our best to avoid noxious stimuli.



As for the person explicitly and devoutly pro-life mentioned in the first sentence, religion I guess?

 

[Unspoken7612]

I think most people are actually more reasonable than this. Some people on this site think that most people are unchangeably anti-suicide, but I don't think that is true. If a person sat someone down, explained the situation, explained their personal struggles and why this person feels the need to do this, I feel like most people will arrive at the same logical conclusion. Keep in mind, I've never done this, so maybe I am wrong and people really are like that.

I think for those of us who have incurable physical illnesses that leave them struggling with near-constant pain, or the smaller group who are terminally ill, then yes, this approach would work with most people.

I do not think it would work with "I have been depressed for a long time and cannot realistically see my life improving". People have a built-in optimism bias and would mostly say such a person should keep going regardless.

 

[divinemistress36]

People assume mental illness is always treatable no matter what or one day it will magically get better. Ive been on a million different meds, tms, ketamine, ECT which have just given me more brain damage and still get told one day I will magically find a treatment out of the middle of nowhere that will suddenly make me see the beauty in life

 

[bleeding_heart_show]

Pro-lifers are (in my opinion) people that cannot begin to imagine what nonexistence means, so they ascribe traits of existence to it.

For example, someone may be afraid of death because they will not be able to do the things that bring them happiness. They are not able to realize that once they die none of that will matter to them at all because they will be incapable of experiencing the sensation of deprivation in the first place.

This is poorly written, but I am going to post it as it is now since I have spent 20 minutes trying to articulate this and am becoming annoyed with myself.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

My Death / non-existence is the best thing to me by a trillion times

Only in non-existence forever can u be guaranteed never to suffer long lasting constant unbearable pain.

Any sentient animal including a human can suffer unbearably any day . That can't happen in non-existence. So Non-existence is better than being alive

1 nano-second After Death is non-existence forever .

Non-existence means all my problems solved instantly and forever . Never any pain , suffering, problems , work, nor bad memories ever, never any of the many horrible things in life and this evil world

Life is bad for many reasons on top of reasons

U have to suffer and work hard every day for no objective reason just to exist under threat of extreme torture

No one can convince me there's an objective reason why I or any sentient animal should have to live or want to live another second in this prison hell

I agree. Non existence is far, far superior than existence.

I suppose they must have things in life they still cherish more- relationships maybe. Their families. I don't know. I don't understand it either!

I understand that people cherish relationships and love and all of the other stuff that they cherish but I'm shocked that these things even have an impact when it comes to those who suffer brutally like having cancer for example.

Because they never suffered as we do themselves, and they'd rather not think about the possibility - de facto pretending it does not exist. Then, they project their view on everyone else, and can't put themselves in the shoes of who is suffering so much that they want to die, because realizing such a level of pain exists is scary and it's easier to pretend it does not and death is the worst thing ever.

What about the people who have suffered as much as we have and still would rather choose existence than death?

I think most people are actually more reasonable than this. Some people on this site think that most people are unchangeably anti-suicide, but I don't think that is true. If a person sat someone down, explained the situation, explained their personal struggles and why this person feels the need to do this, I feel like most people will arrive at the same logical conclusion. Keep in mind, I've never done this, so maybe I am wrong and people really are like that.

I wish you were right, I really do but unfortunately you're wrong. In most cases, no matter how logical you explain your reasons for being suicidal, they will always go against you due to how pro life they are. These people just can't accept the idea of suicide no matter what. In this world, explaining your reasons for being suicidal will just get you locked up and treated even worse than a prisoner.

A lot of what people have said here is true but I also feel like it boils down to selfishness. Sometimes people want to act like they care so they can feel better about themselves and that they "at least did something." Also, people generally don't want people they like to die, but they fail to consider our suffering. It's kinda strange since people are mostly OK with euthanizing their pets to prevent needless suffering

That explains why people are anti suicide but doesn't necessarily explain why they consider death to be the worst case scenario despite suffering horrifically. I've seen countless stories of people with immense suffering who are basically bed bound and are a slave to the medical industry who still want to live. Why do those people want to live? That's what confuses me.

Pro-lifers are (in my opinion) people that cannot begin to imagine what nonexistence means, so they ascribe traits of existence to it.

For example, someone may be afraid of death because they will not be able to do the things that bring them happiness. They are not able to realize that once they die none of that will matter to them at all because they will be incapable of experiencing the sensation of deprivation in the first place.

This is poorly written, but I am going to post it as it is now since I have spent 20 minutes trying to articulate this and am becoming annoyed with myself.

I personally can't understand as to how people aren't able to understand permanent non existence as it always has been easy for me to understand but, even if they can't understand it, surely it's preferable than suffering immensely and perpetually?