Discussion Why are so many people pro suffering?

[ijustwishtodie]

I don't understand it at all. Many people glorify suffering and talk about how beautiful it is. For example, they talk about how "suffering builds character" and they enjoy the idea of people going through hardship. Many of them talk about how life would be boring without challenges and suffering but I personally never had that mindset. I personally think that life would be fun without suffering and challenges but that's just me. Last of all, they want people to live for as long as possible regardless of whether they're suffering through it or not because "that's just life"

Why do so many people glorify suffering?

 

[Malaria]

I think it's biology. We're wired to want to survive and many people want to overcome obstacles as a result of that. That's just my guess, though.

 

[manic-dream]

Life will always have suffering so it is better to glorify it than succumb to it fully for some. More positive thinking can change some people's view on certain things making it easier to work through. But imo glorifying something that shouldn't be like pure suffering leads to shit down the line because they never dealt with the fact that even though it is life it is still hard and shitty to suffer with something especially like cancer.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I think it's biology. We're wired to want to survive and many people want to overcome obstacles as a result of that. That's just my guess, though.

I guess I understand the biology part of wanting to survive but I feel like people want to do more than just survive when it comes to glorifying suffering. As in, they still glorify hardships even when their survival is not directly on the line and this is something that I genuinely don't understand. I've even seen people say that eternal heaven in the afterlife is boring and not worth pursuing because any heaven without challenges is boring

 

[Malaria]

I guess I understand the biology part of wanting to survive but I feel like people want to do more than just survive when it comes to glorifying suffering. As in, they still glorify hardships even when their survival is not directly on the line and this is something that I genuinely don't understand. I've even seen people say that eternal heaven in the afterlife is boring and not worth pursuing because any heaven without challenges is boring

I can sorta see where those people are coming from, and I often fantasize about being out in the wild having to hunt all my food and living a brutal life. I'm not sure why that sounds appealing to me, but that's how I feel.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I can sorta see where those people are coming from, and I often fantasize about being out in the wild having to hunt all my food and living a brutal life. I'm not sure why that sounds appealing to me, but that's how I feel.

But why..? That sounds so awful to me. Why would you want to do that?

 

[Malaria]

But why..? That sounds so awful to me. Why would you want to do that?

I don't know how to explain it, I just like that idea.

 

[FuneralCry]

I don't understand as well as in my case I'm anti suffering, I view all suffering as unnecessary, undesirable, meaningless and best avoided. I wish to cease existing as I don't want to suffer in any way, I don't want to feel or experience anything at all, I simply wish to be eternally at peace.

It disgusts me how this world is so pro-suffering with humans continuing to so harmfully impose existence with no acceptance towards suicide as a valid option to prevent suffering, I don't see any value in suffering so unnecessarily in this existence when there are no disadvantages to permanently not existing.

 

[Malaria]

But why..? That sounds so awful to me. Why would you want to do that?

Actually, now that I've taken a bit to think about it, I believe it does go back to biology. I'm not sure how to articulate it, but I think a lot of animals, which humans are, are wired to want hardships to overcome.

I'm reminded of the Mouse Utopia Experiment. I'm not sure if you're aware of it, here's a link that explains the experiment and the phenomenon that comes from it.

Behavioral sink - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think when an animal feels like they aren't doing what they're wired to do, which is to survive and overcome obstacles, they feel like they don't have any drive to keep doing what normally comes to them biologically. It can result in things like boredom. That's just my theory though, and the best explanation I can come up with. I understand where people who are against any and all suffering are coming from though, and I can see why this sort of thing puzzles them. I've lived a city life my whole life, and frankly it makes me feel bored and alienated. I feel like I have nothing to strive for or live for. I've never lived a naturalist lifestyle, but the alienation I've felt from being a city person my whole life I guess has led me to romanticize the lifestyle.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

An average life consists of ups and downs that are equal weight for the vast majority. Challenges are not necessarily equal to suffering they can make life interesting. Real suffering begins when the average ups and downs are dominated by downs that are not equalized or topped by following ups.

People who have minimum an avg life can't understand what suffering really means, suffering that leads to suicidal ideation.

There must be some kind of "suffering" or the need to do sth otherwise we'd be still cavemen and would not have developed all the machines and stuff. That's a philosophical question whether it would have been better if stayed cavemen or not.

 

[escape_from_hell]

Strong social network also the social brownie points they think they are getting for being tough and hard. Narcissistic fantasy that they are getting respect for being a badass. Glorification of survivorship stories like people losing limbs and going on to be star athletes, surviving death camps to become motivational speakers, beating cancer to raise a huge ass family of future cancer victims.

Mostly just the narcissism. Everyone loves to think they are the good soul/freefloating will-spirit-creature that overcame hardships from their inherent goodness to overcome all odds. Main character syndrome. Those people on the streets screaming at the air in the cold with no love or warmth in their life are there because they were bad, lazy, did drugs. You have a good job and family because you are goody good. But when they end up homeless too, it's because they got fucked over by external factors: mean boss, tragic fire, family member betrayal.

And if they get back on their feet, they get one hell of an ego rush boost from that. You hear old people talking bout how young people need to work 6 jobs, see their best friends disemboweled in a pointless war, and be hazed in all manners to earn their keep. Also helps them justify that suffering to themselves.

 

[sserafim]

An average life consists of ups and downs that are equal weight for the vast majority. Challenges are not necessarily equal to suffering they can make life interesting. Real suffering begins when the average ups and downs are dominated by downs that are not equalized or topped by following ups.

People who have minimum an avg life can't understand what suffering really means, suffering that leads to suicidal ideation.

There must be some kind of "suffering" or the need to do sth otherwise we'd be still cavemen and would not have developed all the machines and stuff. That's a philosophical question whether it would have been better if stayed cavemen or not.

Is suffering the driving force for evolution and progress?

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Is suffering the driving force for evolution and progress?

For us humans that could very well be valid. For example in the past 10000 years there was probably more "development" than ever before after humans settled and started with agriculture = better ways to support the clans/communities with food long term. The suffering of not finding food leads to the idea of trying to cultivate it = evolution and less suffering.

However suffering bc of not finding food can lead to suicidal thoughts when suffering becomes unbearable.

 

[sserafim]

For us humans that could very well be valid. For example in the past 10000 years there was probably more "development" than ever before after humans settled and started with agriculture = better ways to support the clans/communities with food long term. The suffering of not finding food leads to the idea of trying to cultivate it = evolution and less suffering.

However suffering bc of not finding food can lead to suicidal thoughts when suffering becomes unbearable.

Agriculture is the root of all evil

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Agriculture is the root of all evil

LOL well it was certainly one of the things that we invented that lead to where we are now ....

 

[ijustwishtodie]

Strong social network also the social brownie points they think they are getting for being tough and hard. Narcissistic fantasy that they are getting respect for being a badass. Glorification of survivorship stories like people losing limbs and going on to be star athletes, surviving death camps to become motivational speakers, beating cancer to raise a huge ass family of future cancer victims.

Mostly just the narcissism. Everyone loves to think they are the good soul/freefloating will-spirit-creature that overcame hardships from their inherent goodness to overcome all odds. Main character syndrome. Those people on the streets screaming at the air in the cold with no love or warmth in their life are there because they were bad, lazy, did drugs. You have a good job and family because you are goody good. But when they end up homeless too, it's because they got fucked over by external factors: mean boss, tragic fire, family member betrayal.

And if they get back on their feet, they get one hell of an ego rush boost from that. You hear old people talking bout how young people need to work 6 jobs, see their best friends disemboweled in a pointless war, and be hazed in all manners to earn their keep. Also helps them justify that suffering to themselves.

People like that are so annoying. I remember back in school when I had random assemblies from a headteacher where they talked about the importance of striving to try hard and they showed many random famous examples of random celebrities failing and succeeding and I just found it so annoying. It's blatant propaganda and it's a bad one at that yet people get motivated by this shit? Then again, I bet these same people are the ones who think that emulating random crap that a celebrity does in their day to day life would cause them to also be rich just like said celebrity. The main character syndrome that people have is absolutely crazy

 

[sserafim]

LOL well it was certainly one of the things that we invented that lead to where we are now ....

I guess suffering is an incentive. It drives and motivates people to do things (to alleviate their suffering?)

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I guess suffering is an incentive. It drives and motivates people to do things (to alleviate their suffering?)

Yes I see it this way. But when suffering becomes too much and we don't see a way out anymore then possibly we may "shut down" bc it's too overwhelming and we can't handle it anymore. That's how I see it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think maybe because they prohibit themselves from considering suicide. Seeing as suffering is almost inevitable, and if they are actually going through it, they then only have two choices- because they won't consider suicide. Be a powerless victim or be a survivor.

I think people like to flatter themselves how strong they are and how their adversity has made them all the stronger. It's basically putting a positive spin on a bad situation. I suppose so that it doesn't pull them all the way down. I just think it's a coping mechanism basically. A way of taking control over a shitty situation.

Plus, things like religion and anything competetive- sports, research projects, learning- they all seem to glorify struggle. I guess it's supposed to be inspirational for the rest of us when someone with terrible adversity overcomes it to achieve their goals. Put it this way- is it more of an achievement to be dropped off at the top of Everest by helicopter or, to climb it?

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Because the cruel reality is that your suffering can always be a way to reduce someone else's suffering. The reverse can also be true if you allow it. As an example: Feeling suicidal? Well here comes random virtue signaler 101 to tell you life is going to get better someday. That person just used your suffering to feel better about whatever they're going through. On the flip side, you can equally trigger someone else to suffer humiliation and embarrassment for not knowing how to properly help you and then feel good about that, if you want.

 

[sserafim]

Because they're pro-life and life is suffering

 

[penguinl0v3s]

People want to justify their hardships instead of believing its for no reason.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

I think maybe because they prohibit themselves from considering suicide. Seeing as suffering is almost inevitable, and if they are actually going through it, they then only have two choices- because they won't consider suicide. Be a powerless victim or be a survivor.

I think people like to flatter themselves how strong they are and how their adversity has made them all the stronger. It's basically putting a positive spin on a bad situation. I suppose so that it doesn't pull them all the way down. I just think it's a coping mechanism basically. A way of taking control over a shitty situation.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The reality that their suffering was senseless is too difficult to accept, so they have to change the narrative and impose meaning where there was none. When they say things like "I wouldn't be who I was today without going through that," they're committing a post hoc logical fallacy.

By definition, you can only be who you are now by having lived through the sequence of events that led up to the current moment. Notice how no one ever says "Man, I wish I had gone through a traumatizing event so that I could have suffered, overcome, and then grown." We recognize before it happens that that's not a reasonable trade-off, but suddenly once it does happen, the equation changes and now it was something to be grateful for. Yet I think deep down they must still be aware that that's nothing but a cope, because they would never want it to happen to someone else.

 

[Malaria]

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The reality that their suffering was senseless is too difficult to accept, so they have to change the narrative and impose meaning where there was none. When they say things like "I wouldn't be who I was today without going through that," they're committing a post hoc logical fallacy.

By definition, you can only be who you are now by having lived through the sequence of events that led up to the current moment. Notice how no one ever says "Man, I wish I had gone through a traumatizing event so that I could have suffered, overcome, and then grown." We recognize before it happens that that's not a reasonable trade-off, but suddenly once it does happen, the equation changes and now it was something to be grateful for. Yet I think deep down they must still be aware that that's nothing but a cope, because they would never want it to happen to someone else.

This is an interesting way of putting it.

I've been often tempted to view my traumas as things that have made me stronger, but the reality is, they're things no one should have to go through. It's just that, because we can't change the past, it's like we have no choice but to accept what happened and tell ourselves whatever narratives we can in order to feel better about what happened. Though I suppose one could make the argument of "So what's the alternative, wallowing in despair over something you can't change?"

I don't know what the right answer is, but this is at least interesting food for thought and it allows me to question things. Do I really feel like I'm a better person because I've overcome my traumas (which, mind you, I haven't), or am I just telling myself that because I don't want to face how broken my traumas have made me feel as a person?

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Though I suppose one could make the argument of "So what's the alternative, wallowing in despair over something you can't change?"

I don't think the alternative would be wallowing, but rather "radical acceptance." As in, "It sucks that that happened to me, and I acknowledge that it broke me in xyz ways, but there's nothing I can do about it now. All that's left for me to do is rebuild to the extent I can."

 

[Malaria]

I don't think the alternative would be wallowing, but rather "radical acceptance." As in, "It sucks that that happened to me, and I acknowledge that it broke me in xyz ways, but there's nothing I can do about it now. All that's left for me to do is rebuild to the extent I can."

That's a good mentality to have. I think I'll try to apply that in my own life.

 

[not-2-b-the-answer]

Why are so many people pro suffering?

Because they aren't.... Or not as long. They need to try decades of suffering with no release. Perhaps that would change some minds.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. The reality that their suffering was senseless is too difficult to accept, so they have to change the narrative and impose meaning where there was none. When they say things like "I wouldn't be who I was today without going through that," they're committing a post hoc logical fallacy.

By definition, you can only be who you are now by having lived through the sequence of events that led up to the current moment. Notice how no one ever says "Man, I wish I had gone through a traumatizing event so that I could have suffered, overcome, and then grown." We recognize before it happens that that's not a reasonable trade-off, but suddenly once it does happen, the equation changes and now it was something to be grateful for. Yet I think deep down they must still be aware that that's nothing but a cope, because they would never want it to happen to someone else.

Definitely. I think it's a way for them to cope with the suffering they have already gone through. Like you say- most wouldn't want their bad fortune to play out on someone else because it was so 'character forming' for them. They surely wouldn't want bad fortune to befall people so they would be disadvantaged in life. That's sadistic.

Although, I suppose some people will say stuff like- 'You've had it too easy'. I think that usually comes up because the person is now all of a sudden facing something they're not prepared for. Like, you need to struggle and suffer a certain amount in life in order to build up a tolerance! It does seem kind of sadistic but then- if you know life is going to continually test someone, I suppose the reality is- they will actually need to get used to it.

Interestingly, I did work with a lovely lady once who said, growing up, she actually did want a difficult life. I think she thought it would be more of a pious, religious lesson to suffer! Humility or something.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Definitely. I think it's a way for them to cope with the suffering they have already gone through. Like you say- most wouldn't want their bad fortune to play out on someone else because it was so 'character forming' for them. They surely wouldn't want bad fortune to befall people so they would be disadvantaged in life. That's sadistic.

Although, I suppose some people will say stuff like- 'You've had it too easy'. I think that usually comes up because the person is now all of a sudden facing something they're not prepared for. Like, you need to struggle and suffer a certain amount in life in order to build up a tolerance! It does seem kind of sadistic but then- if you know life is going to continually test someone, I suppose the reality is- they will actually need to get used to it.

Interestingly, I did work with a lovely lady once who said, growing up, she actually did want a difficult life. I think she thought it would be more of a pious, religious lesson to suffer! Humility or something.

I would actually agree that some struggle can be beneficial in life, but the thing is, it has to be the kind that juuuuuust barely outstrips your capacity, allowing you to rebuild so that in the future you're better able to handle situations like that. Kind of like what happens when you build muscle. I think the problem comes in when your struggles far outstrip our capacity, at which point you no longer have the ability to build yourself back up again stronger because too much of the essential materials were lost. I'm kind of mixing metaphors here so I hope that makes some kind of sense.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I would actually agree that some struggle can be beneficial in life, but the thing is, it has to be the kind that juuuuuust barely outstrips your capacity, allowing you to rebuild so that in the future you're better able to handle situations like that. Kind of like what happens when you build muscle. I think the problem comes in when your struggles far outstrip our capacity, at which point you no longer have the ability to build yourself back up again stronger because too much of the essential materials were lost. I'm kind of mixing metaphors here so I hope that makes some kind of sense.

Definitely- I agree. Either gradual increments in difficulty or at least being in a supportive environment. Sadly, life doesn't usually pan out like that. Quite often, all the overwhelming shit happens at once and you find yourself alone trying to cope with it.