Discussion Where does one actually find medical professionals and doctors who are actually in support of the right to die?

[TAW122]

In some of my threads (here is one for instance) as well as others' threads about the right to die and medical aid in dying, there were some people who mentioned that in the UK, their government doesn't actively intervene against people who want to die (post 1), and also that it doesn't care about those in poverty dying (post 2). I wished it was true though because I have heard conflicting reports on people who lived in the UK. Some say that the UK is really draconian and meddlesome in it's attempts to prevent CTB for it's citizens, while others claim it is not quite like that.

Keep in mind that I'm based in the US and as far as I know, there are only a few states that have death with dignity laws, which of course, are only available for those who are "terminally ill", meaning patients with 6 months or less to live, and not non-terminal patients. It also designed in such a way that it will be hard to access, especially having to meet the conditions that are very narrow and also being a resident of the particular state. Though recently some states have dropped the residency require to access it (namely Vermont and Oregon), but all other criteria still applies, such as being terminally ill (with 6 months or less to live, be of sound mind, physicians signing off, waiting period, etc.). This means that for those who are permanently ill and suffering from chronic physical conditions, they would not qualify for such services. All in all, these death with dignity laws are not only limited in the few states it's legal in, and even in the states that are legal, they just don't do enough to alleviate suffering. That isn't to say that people who are terminally ill deserve it any more/less; they all (whether they are terminal or not) deserve a peaceful, dignified exit.

I would like to think that if I ever ended up a with a non-terminal, but really life changing illness or disability that I would be able to find a doctor or medical professional that would respect my wishes and be able to carry them out if I am physically or otherwise unable to do so. One of these conditions can include but are not limited to: complete spinal cord injuries (not paraplegia, but quadriplegia/tetraplegia), ALS, dementia, and/or other non-terminal but severely debilitating illnesses. While advance directives are a thing, they may/not always be honored and are likely only for situations where one cannot community one's wishes. It was even mentioned that they could be overwritten or simply just ignored. Even with VSED, which is voluntarily stopping eating and drinking, it seems like medical professionals and the government (the courts and judges) can even force sustenance onto an individual that they deem mentally defective or lacking mental capacity to make sound decisions. Which is why mental diagnosis and labels are unfalsifiable and I've written threads explaining and dissecting them, but I digress.

Anyhow, so I wrote this thread in hopes that maybe someone might know more about "realistically" how one would either have their wishes respected or if the worst really comes, being non-terminally ill, severe debility and disability, then being unable to physically CTB and somehow having to rely on passive euthanasia, which of course, may be intervened against. I also found that there has been contrary responses with some people claiming that doctors, medical professionals, and the government won't actively intervene nor force people to live and "some" medical professionals will 'secretly' alleviate the patient's suffering (e.g. giving them more than LD50 of a painkiller or some other comfort care to passively aid in dying). Does anyone have anything to add or elaborate? I would think that if I found that there is always a way out, even if it is passive euthanasia and not forced continuation or endurance of what I deem to be an intolerable life, then that would help with day to day living and I may be less likely to take my own CTB to my own hands (via a non-peaceful, brutal way out).

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

I'd think this would be very location-dependent. I'm lucky to be in Canada so if I contracted some non-terminally ill severe disease, I'd be able to apply for MAID. There was a news article recently about a 27-year-old who got it in one of the most conservative provinces of the country so that gives me hope that even if I was young, I'd still be able to find doctors to sign off on it.

That's interesting what you said about advance directives, I was not aware of that, though again, probably location-dependent. I submitted my advance directives a few months ago, it gave me a lot of comfort because I knew that even if I ended up a vegetable after a botched CTB attempt, they'd have to let me die.

I'm not sure I have any "realistic" suggestions though...

 

[theboy]

you mean helping you to die or agreeing to voluntary death?

 

[TAW122]

I'd think this would be very location-dependent. I'm lucky to be in Canada so if I contracted some non-terminally ill severe disease, I'd be able to apply for MAID. There was a news article recently about a 27-year-old who got it in one of the most conservative provinces of the country so that gives me hope that even if I was young, I'd still be able to find doctors to sign off on it.

That's interesting what you said about advance directives, I was not aware of that, though again, probably location-dependent. I submitted my advance directives a few months ago, it gave me a lot of comfort because I knew that even if I ended up a vegetable after a botched CTB attempt, they'd have to let me die.

I'm not sure I have any "realistic" suggestions though...

Yeah I think even for now, even if MAID isn't available for patients' whose sole underlying condition is mental illness, they do qualify for people who are not terminally ill, but permanently and irremediably severely and chronically ill (mainly physical conditions). That alone would be huge in alleviating more of the mid to long term suffering, knowing that there is a way out if I ever find myself severely physically disabled or gravely injured, but not quite terminal or imminently at death's door.

you mean helping you to die or agreeing to voluntary death?

I suppose the latter at the very least, though helping me die if I ever become severely physically incapacitated but still mentally alert and still have clarity of thought (meaning that I know objective reality and can articulate my wishes) would be ideal, but at the minimum I would wish for one to agree to voluntary death, even if passive euthanasia. This means that the doctor would not be performing live saving/heroic actions and allow nature to take it's course (e.g. Christina Symanski (see article here), Tim Bowers (article linked), and Tony Nicholson (article linked here), to name a few). I think if I could legally and feasibly find doctors and medical professionals that allow such things to happen, it would be a step in the right direction and alleviate existential dread, knowing that if I ever end up in an intolerable and shitty situation, that someone will at least help me die (ideally), but if not, will not interfere with my wishes to die, even if it means starving to death or refusing life-sustaining measures. I know they exist out there, but I'd just like to find more information on that.

 

[theboy]

I suppose the latter at the very least, though helping me die if I ever become severely physically incapacitated but still mentally alert and still have clarity of thought (meaning that I know objective reality and can articulate my wishes) would be ideal, but at the minimum I would wish for one to agree to voluntary death, even if passive euthanasia. This means that the doctor would not be performing live saving/heroic actions and allow nature to take it's course (e.g. Christina Symanski (see article here), Tim Bowers (article linked), and Tony Nicholson (article linked here), to name a few). I think if I could legally and feasibly find doctors and medical professionals that allow such things to happen, it would be a step in the right direction and alleviate existential dread, knowing that if I ever end up in an intolerable and shitty situation, that someone will at least help me die (ideally), but if not, will not interfere with my wishes to die, even if it means starving to death or refusing life-sustaining measures. I know they exist out there, but I'd just like to find more information on that.

it is almost impossible to find a doctor to help you with that even if you bribe him. i guess they follow their medical code of ethics and clearly, the huamanian morality of preserving another person's life.

 

[UKscotty]

Doctors won't openly do that, it would be murder.

 

[TAW122]

it is almost impossible to find a doctor to help you with that even if you bribe him. i guess they follow their medical code of ethics and clearly, the huamanian morality of preserving another person's life.

So how do the people who end up with severe physical ailments that gravely impact their lives (non-terminal) manage to get the doctor to help them die, even if it isn't active assistance, but merely just allowing nature to take it's course, like no heroic efforts, no unnecessary life-saving measures to prolong life, etc.? At the very minimum, I just want to find a doctor that will respect my wishes (even if they don't want to actively hasten my death, but by not medically intervening when I don't wish to (e.g. force feeding, forced ventilation, forced life-saving measures, etc.). Merely not actively opposing and intervening against death and allowing nature to run it's course would be the bare minimum that I would accept because that means (albeit a very desperate and harrowing way to die, at least I would be more/less guaranteed to eventually die and not with unnecessary suffering or pain) I would have some way out, partly on my own terms.

Again, I know advance directives are a way to make my wishes known, but it appears that it only takes effect whenever one is unable to articulate their wishes (in a coma, incapacitated and unable to communicate). So this leaves the ultimate question: Would there be a doctor that at the minimum would respect my wishes, even if they don't want to actively assist in death, but merely not intervening to prolong my life against my will should I find myself in a irremediable, grave condition that I deem intolerable (especially severe physical debility)?

On that note, I do wish that there comes at least a time where severe physical conditions and debility will qualify for death with dignity (mainly in the US states in which assisted suicide is legal) and not solely for the terminally ill with less than six months to live.

Doctors won't openly do that, it would be murder.

Yeah that makes sense. However, I know there are doctors out there that do hasten death, even if they don't take an active role or directly cause it. Do you know of any that would at least respect my wishes to not have heroic measures and/or life-saving measures done against my will? I think that instead of trying to win the positive right to be euthanized by my wish, I merely just have to ensure that no medical professional would interfere with my negative liberty rights if that makes sense.

 

[UKscotty]

So how do the people who end up with severe physical ailments that gravely impact their lives (non-terminal) manage to get the doctor to help them die, even if it isn't active assistance, but merely just allowing nature to take it's course, like no heroic efforts, no unnecessary life-saving measures to prolong life, etc.? At the very minimum, I just want to find a doctor that will respect my wishes (even if they don't want to actively hasten my death, but by not medically intervening when I don't wish to (e.g. force feeding, forced ventilation, forced life-saving measures, etc.). Merely not actively opposing and intervening against death and allowing nature to run it's course would be the bare minimum that I would accept because that means (albeit a very desperate and harrowing way to die, at least I would be more/less guaranteed to eventually die and not with unnecessary suffering or pain) I would have some way out, partly on my own terms.

Again, I know advance directives are a way to make my wishes known, but it appears that it only takes effect whenever one is unable to articulate their wishes (in a coma, incapacitated and unable to communicate). So this leaves the ultimate question: Would there be a doctor that at the minimum would respect my wishes, even if they don't want to actively assist in death, but merely not intervening to prolong my life against my will should I find myself in a irremediable, grave condition that I deem intolerable (especially severe physical debility)?

On that note, I do wish that there comes at least a time where severe physical conditions and debility will qualify for death with dignity (mainly in the US states in which assisted suicide is legal) and not solely for the terminally ill with less than six months to live.


Yeah that makes sense. However, I know there are doctors out there that do hasten death, even if they don't take an active role or directly cause it. Do you know of any that would at least respect my wishes to not have heroic measures and/or life-saving measures done against my will? I think that instead of trying to win the positive right to be euthanized by my wish, I merely just have to ensure that no medical professional would interfere with my negative liberty rights if that makes sense.

I think its an open secret that most doctors will over prescribed morphine or similar if a patient is end of life. It's just obviously not formalised anywhere

 

[TAW122]

I think its an open secret that most doctors will over prescribed morphine or similar if a patient is end of life. It's just obviously not formalised anywhere

I see and it applies to terminally ill (usually less than 6 months of life). I do wonder though, what if someone who was severely physically crippled, but not near end of life, like tetraplegia (quadriplegia) and/or other severely debilitating, but non-terminal conditions? While a doctor may not over prescribe morphine or similar drug that hastens death, would doctors at least allow them to die by VSED or other means (passive euthanasia)? I just know that I wouldn't want to live if I ended up severely physically debilitated or in such a bad condition that makes my life intolerable. The news stories and articles I linked were where those patients (not near end of life nor terminally ill) were allowed to be taken off life support or at least allowed to VSED and die without prolonging suffering for many years to come.