Discussion When does 'won't' become 'can't'?

[Forever Sleep]

Sometimes I wonder about this. Like- physical illness is maybe more clear cut. You can't expect a person who can't walk to climb a mountain. But- where are the lines drawn when it comes to mental illness or anxiety disorders? When does 'I won't do that' become 'I can't do that?'

For context, I suppose I mean things like- working, going to interviews, everything dull and adulty. How much is considered a reasonable amount of anxiety to have? I imagine most people get anxious before job interviews. I've even known what appeared to be relative 'normies' admit that they cried every morning before work. Even people who came off confident who said they would have to occassionally disappear to the toilets to cry!

Like- shit! What is actually 'normal'? When is it considered debilitating? Surely, crying every morning can't be a sign of mental wellness!

Sometimes I wonder if repeatedly refusing to do things make them become so frightening that we do end up feeling like we no longer can do them. I think I've done that to myself with social anxiety. Of course- I 'could' still do it. It's not like I'm incapable of walking into a crowded room of people but I suspect it would feel horrendous.

So- is there really a 'can't' when it comes to non physical problems? Is it the severity of the reaction that we would have that makes doctors/ us diagnose ourselves with various disorders? Is it because we repeatedly say we 'won't' do certain things that we end up truly feeling like we 'can't' anymore?

 

[Ash]

You can't expect a person who can't walk to climb a mountain.

Tell that to the paraclimbers who do just that every year on mountains all over the world, including Mount Kilimanjaro.

If you want to make a clear and valid point about can't vs won't, do you think you can reword the post so the premise doesn't begin from a place of assumptions?

 

[Forever Sleep]

Tell that to the paraclimbers who do just that every year on mountains all over the world, including Mount Kilimanjaro.

If you want to make a clear and valid point about can't vs won't, do you think you can reword the post so the premise doesn't begin from a place of assumptions?

Yeah- fair enough. So- by extension- do you think all disabilities- physical and mental can be overcome? Should they be overcome? I suppose is more to the point. I do agree that humans are capable of overcoming terrific adversity. Still- the impetus to do so has to be there.

I suppose what I meant is- there may be certain conditions that utterly prevent us from doing things. Especially if they don't have a cure. I suppose I just wonder how they assess that with mental illness and anxiety. Is it when the symptoms are debilitatingly severe and seem to be treatment resistant?

I didn't mean to cause offense though. Sorry if I have.

 

[Ash]

I think you're being too specific. Not every person with a disability can climb a mountain. Not every person without one can, either!

For both physical and mental health, it's a massive, complex combination of genetics, history, environment, support, treatment, medication (if appropriate), lifestyle, nutrition, existing physical health if mental, existing mental health if physical, financial circumstances, political situation of country/region, housing situation, aspirations and self confidence/belief... I could go on and on.

There's no way to predict individually who will persevere in the face of adversity but we know statistically who is most likely to thrive and who will crumble. And even then some of it is down to character and chance.

I got brought up on the "no such thing as can't" mantra so I always give a reason when I tell people, especially professionals, that I "can't" do something or reword it so it's "I'm not going to" e.g. "I'm not going out today as I've got a really bad headache and I don't feel safe" instead of "I can't leave the house".

I don't know if that answers your question or not? I do actually have a bad headache so I do know what you're trying to say and I know what I want to say but the right words are obscured with brain fog.

 

[Pluto]

I've debated making a similar post on the subject of mental illness and choice. I think it's quite a profound, non-rhetorical question.

For context, I'm speaking not about anxiety, but about conditions which can cause people to either 1) cycle between aggressive outbursts and deep regret, or 2) the downright sadistic world of Dark Triad abuse.

For example, I recently had to intervene when someone at my gym was being stalked by a charming Dark Triad guy who had previously ripped me off a bunch of money. She is doing OK so far but her marriage has been severely shaken, she's avoiding certain workplaces out of fear and her mind is a mess of self-blame, doubt, anger and confusion.

I've been able to help by providing a lot of background information on the stalker, plus the whole situation is like a very mild version of what I experienced growing up with Dark Triad parents. I know the antidote is to waste no time in ensuring protection, stabilisation, validation, and having a basic understanding of the antagonist's psychology.

A mutual colleague once said of him, "Some people just like to watch the world burn." Indeed, to a sadist, it is the gentle, the sensitive, the vulnerable and the pure-hearted that are the most fun to torture. In explaining all this, I joked to her that if she were to spend enough time around these people, she'd end up a socially isolated cat-worshipper like me.

Anyway, to the point. Explaining the predator, we have two options:
1) The condition is caused by childhood trauma and is not a choice. He can't help himself and can't control his impulses to prey on vulnerable people.
2) He knows what he's doing and chooses to harm others just because he enjoys the feeling of dominance.

The problem is that neither of these explanations is fully convincing, and the truth must be some mixture of both. The psychological condition is very real and is not a choice, yet there is a finite amount of control in people's behaviour.

Some people in his position might even be inclined to get help. Even this same guy did once admit to me that he was feeling a bit guilty that he's currently targeting 3 different women at once. So the stereotype of zero remorse isn't fully accurate.

Anyway, to summarise, mental illness and psychological conditioning are very real and provide a default behavioural framework, yet for all intents and purposes, choice is a real thing also, and probably a very constructive thing to focus on.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think you're being too specific. Not every person with a disability can climb a mountain. Not every person without one can, either!

For both physical and mental health, it's a massive, complex combination of genetics, history, environment, support, treatment, medication (if appropriate), lifestyle, nutrition, existing physical health if mental, existing mental health if physical, financial circumstances, political situation of country/region, housing situation, aspirations and self confidence/belief... I could go on and on.

There's no way to predict individually who will persevere in the face of adversity but we know statistically who is most likely to thrive and who will crumble. And even then some of it is down to character and chance.

I got brought up on the "no such thing as can't" mantra so I always give a reason when I tell people, especially professionals, that I "can't" do something or reword it so it's "I'm not going to" e.g. "I'm not going out today as I've got a really bad headache and I don't feel safe" instead of "I can't leave the house".

I don't know if that answers your question or not? I do actually have a bad headache so I do know what you're trying to say and I know what I want to say but the right words are obscured with brain fog.

Yes, I agree with your points. Maybe the most 'useful' attribute in living is the want and staying power to overcome the various amount of shit that comes our way! And, that varies between us. Both the amount of shit and, the want to overcome it.

I suppose I was thinking more of what is expected of us rather than what we challenge ourselves to do. Maybe because things like mental illness and anxiety disorders aren't visible- we're all expected to 'perform' in life- if that makes sense? Because we probably look 'normal'. Whereas- you wouldn't insist that a disabled person climb a mountain. I guess that's what I was trying to say- just not very well! Plus, I guess I'm curious on how they decide whether we are fit enough or not to have to function in society or whether we qualify for benefits.

Plus, I suppose I'm curious on the best way to treat such things. Should we be pushed to do things we find uncomfortable? Say being in social situations for people who are socially anxious? In the hopes that exposure will cure it? So that 'won't' doesn't become almost 'can't- in a way. I don't know- again.

But yes, I used to hear that too- 'There's no such word as can't'. Like- sure there is- it's the contracted version of 'can not.' . I don't know whether I like the sentiment or not really. A lot of the time now, I'd just really rather not try! But yes- that's a good idea- to phrase it differently so there isn't a 'can't'.

I've debated making a similar post on the subject of mental illness and choice. I think it's quite a profound, non-rhetorical question.

For context, I'm speaking not about anxiety, but about conditions which can cause people to either 1) cycle between aggressive outbursts and deep regret, or 2) the downright sadistic world of Dark Triad abuse.

For example, I recently had to intervene when someone at my gym was being stalked by a charming Dark Triad guy who had previously ripped me off a bunch of money. She is doing OK so far but her marriage has been severely shaken, she's avoiding certain workplaces out of fear and her mind is a mess of self-blame, doubt, anger and confusion.

I've been able to help by providing a lot of background information on the stalker, plus the whole situation is like a very mild version of what I experienced growing up with Dark Triad parents. I know the antidote is to waste no time in ensuring protection, stabilisation, validation, and having a basic understanding of the antagonist's psychology.

A mutual colleague once said of him, "Some people just like to watch the world burn." Indeed, to a sadist, it is the gentle, the sensitive, the vulnerable and the pure-hearted that are the most fun to torture. In explaining all this, I joked to her that if she were to spend enough time around these people, she'd end up a socially isolated cat-worshipper like me.

Anyway, to the point. Explaining the predator, we have two options:
1) The condition is caused by childhood trauma and is not a choice. He can't help himself and can't control his impulses to prey on vulnerable people.
2) He knows what he's doing and chooses to harm others just because he enjoys the feeling of dominance.

The problem is that neither of these explanations is fully convincing, and the truth must be some mixture of both. The psychological condition is very real and is not a choice, yet there is a finite amount of control in people's behaviour.

Some people in his position might even be inclined to get help. Even this same guy did once admit to me that he was feeling a bit guilty that he's currently targeting 3 different women at once. So the stereotype of zero remorse isn't fully accurate.

Anyway, to summarise, mental illness and psychological conditioning are very real and provide a default behavioural framework, yet for all intents and purposes, choice is a real thing also, and probably a very constructive thing to focus on.

That's so interesting. I wasn't exactly thinking of it in terms of choosing our own antisocial behaviour but I guess that's exactly what it is also.

Your friend is so lucky to have you. It's kind of scary to think what could have happened if you hadn't intervened.

I'm also impressed that you can look at it in the terms that this guy also doesn't have complete control over how he acts. I also feel sure I had experiences with a narcissist in childhood and I find it hard to justify their behaviour or to see it from their side. It's tricky when you're on the receiving end of what feels like unprovoked abuse to feel all that much compassion for them.

Interesting though- that he does seem to have awareness of how he behaves and that it isn't good. So yeah- I guess then it's a matter of whether someone won't or can't stop themselves. I think they can though. If we have an awareness that something is wrong but we do it anyway- that's choice. That's- 'I won't or will do this for my own benefit.' Maybe that ability to get over that compulsion/ addiction or whatever is more lacking in some of us though. I suppose it's determination.

 

[Ash]

Plus, I suppose I'm curious on the best way to treat such things. Should we be pushed to do things we find uncomfortable? Say being in social situations for people who are socially anxious? In the hopes that exposure will cure it? So that 'won't' doesn't become almost 'can't- in a way. I don't know- again.

I'll have a think about the rest of your post but funnily enough I've just been pondering this in a different context.

1. My dog is terrified of loud noises especially fireworks and anything that resembles them including gun shots and exhausts that back fire. I'm using exposure therapy with recorded sounds on my phone to gradually get her used to the noises and help her become used to them without tipping her over the edge.
2. When she goes to the vet when she's not well, she sometimes needs her temperature monitored. No amount of conditioning seems to get her used to having a thermometer shoved up her backside. Don't particularly blame her. Wouldn't be thrilled myself. Relieved that women don't have prostates along with everything other invasive test on our checklists.
3. I conditioned myself to be okay with non-venomous snakes IRL and to be able to watch documentaries / films featuring venomous ones after years of being terrified.

So, can't and won't are, in my limited experience, interchangeable and are by no means fixed. Obviously there are different consequences depending on context. Here in the UK, we've got a General Election coming up. In the constituency where I live, Party X hold the seat and there's a strong chance they'll hold it. I can't bear Party X or their candidate so won't be voting for them, preferring Party A instead. However, there is another, minority party in Britain that I despise and fear even more. I'll call them Party Z. If Party Z field a candidate in my constituency and if polling suggests that they've got a good to strong chance of winning, I will have to hold my nose and vote for Party X, who I hate, as a better choice than Party Z, who I think are utterly despicable. In this situation, can't and won't fly out of the window.

(Sorry if this no longer makes sense in the flow of the discussion. I got distracted by something absolutely ages ago.)

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'll have a think about the rest of your post but funnily enough I've just been pondering this in a different context.

1. My dog is terrified of loud noises especially fireworks and anything that resembles them including gun shots and exhausts that back fire. I'm using exposure therapy with recorded sounds on my phone to gradually get her used to the noises and help her become used to them without tipping her over the edge.
2. When she goes to the vet when she's not well, she sometimes needs her temperature monitored. No amount of conditioning seems to get her used to having a thermometer shoved up her backside. Don't particularly blame her. Wouldn't be thrilled myself. Relieved that women don't have prostates along with everything other invasive test on our checklists.
3. I conditioned myself to be okay with non-venomous snakes IRL and to be able to watch documentaries / films featuring venomous ones after years of being terrified.

So, can't and won't are, in my limited experience, interchangeable and are by no means fixed. Obviously there are different consequences depending on context. Here in the UK, we've got a General Election coming up. In the constituency where I live, Party X hold the seat and there's a strong chance they'll hold it. I can't bear Party X or their candidate so won't be voting for them, preferring Party A instead. However, there is another, minority party in Britain that I despise and fear even more. I'll call them Party Z. If Party Z field a candidate in my constituency and if polling suggests that they've got a good to strong chance of winning, I will have to hold my nose and vote for Party X, who I hate, as a better choice than Party Z, who I think are utterly despicable. In this situation, can't and won't fly out of the window.

(Sorry if this no longer makes sense in the flow of the discussion. I got distracted by something absolutely ages ago.)

Thanks- yes- that's the word I was looking for- conditioning. Arr, your poor dog. I do feel sorry for them on fireworks night. But yeah- I don't imagine any conditioning would get her to enjoy a thermometer being shoved up her arse! I struggled giving my God parents cat eye drops because he hated it. I wish we could explain to them it's for their own good.

I'm in the UK too. Yeah- I know it's kind of weird with the voting. Like you use your vote against a party rather than for one particularly. I hardly ever vote but I probably should. I just don't really trust any of them!

 

[Ash]

Thanks- yes- that's the word I was looking for- conditioning. Arr, your poor dog. I do feel sorry for them on fireworks night. But yeah- I don't imagine any conditioning would get her to enjoy a thermometer being shoved up her arse! I struggled giving my God parents cat eye drops because he hated it. I wish we could explain to them it's for their own good.

I'm in the UK too. Yeah- I know it's kind of weird with the voting. Like you use your vote against a party rather than for one particularly. I hardly ever vote but I probably should. I just don't really trust any of them!

I had a feeling you were in the UK but wasn't 100% sure and know I always get it wrong if I presume

 

[Forever Sleep]

I had a feeling you were in the UK but wasn't 100% sure and know I always get it wrong if I presume

It's good that you stop to question yourself. Quite often, I just assume I've remembered rightly and end up in all sorts of messes. Going to the wrong train station for example. Lol.

 

[Ash]

It's good that you stop to question yourself. Quite often, I just assume I've remembered rightly and end up in all sorts of messes. Going to the wrong train station for example. Lol.

If I can, I get everything written down by the third party - bookings, appointments, etc. If it's me who wrote it down, there's far too much room for error.

 

[ColorlessTrees]

I think it depends on the person. Maybe certain people can be pushed through or 'cured' in terms of select illness. Will can be created or destroyed, but I think that's only true to a certain extent. On an individual level, there are people who are naturally strong willed or weak willed, there are outliers, and then there is the average which I'd describe as a sliding scale, from the middle or tipped with bias to one side (as with anything). It's a common tactic to use the outliers as proof anyone can overcome anything, and it's entirely possible that could be true in a lot more cases than we see, but humans are so individual I just don't think that's realistic for everyone.

What is normal and what is debilitating? Crying every morning before work doesn't seem normal or nice, but if they can still do it day after day, surely they don't perceive it as debilitating. They are capable of 'coping' with that side effect even if it is a burden. Whereas when I experience this, and I cannot keep up with my work despite my best effort to push through.
That's why I consider myself among the weak willed, since I'm very prone to giving up despite wanting heavily to succeed; I do try in my own way.
Upbringing, background, environment, and genetics all play a role in someones degree of strength/will, and that is probably more important than any particular illness or barrier, if it is one that can be 'tangibly' overcome, or more likely managed.

Clearly I'm not very articulate today, but this is an interesting question. Hopefully this makes some degree of sense.

 

[Apathy79]

I think the line will usually be somewhat grey. It goes for physical things too.

I would say "I can't do a pull up" feels like a correct statement for me right now. But if you put me in a life threatening situation where I've fallen and am clinging on and can only survive by doing exactly that, will it change? Maybe? It's also not necessarily a permanent state. I could take steps towards it with weight loss, assisted pull ups and other back exercises, and get there.

I sort of view crippling anxiety in a crowded room the same way. Under the right circumstances, is it possible you could deal with it? And if can't still feels right, is it a permanent state, or could you take steps that would mitigate it through gradual exposure?

My guess is most of the time we say can't, we secretly mean won't, even if we've convinced ourselves otherwise, likely because we feel it's substantially harder for us than most people.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

I think that's a good question to reflect on, especially when it comes to wanting to CTB. Mental and psychic disabilities and impairmentsa re of course not as overt or apparent as some physical disabilities and impairments (emphasis on "some" but because many physical conditions are just as invisible!) so people naturally tend to underestimate just how tough it is for those people who suffer from them to deal with them and to underestimate the magnitude of the obstacles they pose towards achieving things that people without those problems tend to take for granted.

I really tried to do the normative things but my perennial psychosocial problems got in the way. People don't understand that so they give me scrap about not trying when they have no idea the hell I put myself through in my attempt to get a piece of what most others seem to have such natural easy access to.

Since you mention the dull, adulty things it should be mentioned since so many people fail to understand that that aspect of life really is a two-way street. For example, just wanting to work to isn't enough. You have to actually get chosen for the job and your differences have to be tolerated/accepted.

But yes, this question is perhaps most important to ponder regarding yourself. What is the line between my willingness and my ability and where do I fall?

 

[vitbar]

Sometimes I wonder if repeatedly refusing to do things make them become so frightening that we do end up feeling like we no longer can do them. I think I've done that to myself with social anxiety. Of course- I 'could' still do it. It's not like I'm incapable of walking into a crowded room of people but I suspect it would feel horrendous.

It totally does. By giving in to the anxiety and avoiding the trigger you are, in a sense, reinforcing that anxiety. Part of this is that the avoidance reduces the anxiety and so rewards and habituates that avoidance. Also you end up rarely challenging that anxiety, rarely having the chance to get evidence to the contrary. When do you try and do the thing you are anxious about it'll be harder and more likely to end poorly too.

I've wrecked myself with years of avoidance. I'm having to start small and honestly wonder if I will ever heal from it to any significant degree. At the same time I'm aware it could be far worse.

-

I get another related confusion. Do I not want to do a thing, or do I feel too anxious to do a thing? I'll get a social invite and be unable to tell whether I want to do it or not. It feels like I don't, but is that just the anxiety?

 

[DefinitelyReady]

Sometimes I wonder about this. Like- physical illness is maybe more clear cut. You can't expect a person who can't walk to climb a mountain. But- where are the lines drawn when it comes to mental illness or anxiety disorders? When does 'I won't do that' become 'I can't do that?'

For context, I suppose I mean things like- working, going to interviews, everything dull and adulty. How much is considered a reasonable amount of anxiety to have? I imagine most people get anxious before job interviews. I've even known what appeared to be relative 'normies' admit that they cried every morning before work. Even people who came off confident who said they would have to occassionally disappear to the toilets to cry!

Like- shit! What is actually 'normal'? When is it considered debilitating? Surely, crying every morning can't be a sign of mental wellness!

Sometimes I wonder if repeatedly refusing to do things make them become so frightening that we do end up feeling like we no longer can do them. I think I've done that to myself with social anxiety. Of course- I 'could' still do it. It's not like I'm incapable of walking into a crowded room of people but I suspect it would feel horrendous.

So- is there really a 'can't' when it comes to non physical problems? Is it the severity of the reaction that we would have that makes doctors/ us diagnose ourselves with various disorders? Is it because we repeatedly say we 'won't' do certain things that we end up truly feeling like we 'can't' anymore?

Good question. I too have wondered this...
Short answer: I don't think people would kill themselves if they "could" though. That's when they can't.
I often tell "therapists". You can take that bottle of water and drink it normally. Without thinking, without effort. For me, it's as if I weight 600lb and have to use my body to get up and reach for that water bottle so is it worth it? Then add the ocd decision-making. The exertion is 10x at least more for me than it is for others. I might as weight 600lb like that show "My 600lb Life." How difficult it is for them to do daily tasks. What it feels like going outside with people. Some do it still (barely) and some can't really do anything at all. Is that a life? Just miserably meandering through life with nothing, no one, for nothing? Not to mention the past issues or co-morbid issues like my ocd or adhd for other others.
I've told my family before, "If I could, don't you think I would have?" It's torture being like. The shame, guilt, embarrassment, worthlessness, hopelessness, sadness, loneliness etc. Feeling all of them all day, or hopping from one to the other trying to survive the day, just to know another miserable awaits you after you sleep. It makes Hell look like just a sauna.

I think that's a good question to reflect on, especially when it comes to wanting to CTB. Mental and psychic disabilities and impairmentsa re of course not as overt or apparent as some physical disabilities and impairments (emphasis on "some" but because many physical conditions are just as invisible!) so people naturally tend to underestimate just how tough it is for those people who suffer from them to deal with them and to underestimate the magnitude of the obstacles they pose towards achieving things that people without those problems tend to take for granted.

I really tried to do the normative things but my perennial psychosocial problems got in the way. People don't understand that so they give me scrap about not trying when they have no idea the hell I put myself through in my attempt to get a piece of what most others seem to have such natural easy access to.

Since you mention the dull, adulty things it should be mentioned since so many people fail to understand that that aspect of life really is a two-way street. For example, just wanting to work to isn't enough. You have to actually get chosen for the job and your differences have to be tolerated/accepted.

But yes, this question is perhaps most important to ponder regarding yourself. What is the line between my willingness and my ability and where do I fall?

And go day after day after day...