What is the best pro life argument you have ever heard?

[MAIO]

I feel like destroying pro life arguments.

 

[BurningLights]

Not sure if this counts, but my dad told me he would never forgive me. When you read in-between the lines it's fucked. I won't be forgiven for trying everything I could? and eventually doing the one thing that will allow me to longer feel like I do?
I'm not berating him, he's a good man, and of course he doesn't know the arguments for pro choice. (Whole family has been affected by my brothers suicide)
I don't want forgiveness, I want understanding.

 

[Vegrau]

Depend on the subject of the argument or discussion.

 

[MexicanTravels]

I love the French philosopher Camus's writings on the absurd, but I always found his stance on suicide (which is pro-life) troubling; however, I could never really provide a counter-argument. Perhaps you can? Below is an excerpt from 3.1 Suicide as a Response to Absurdity from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on him.

"There is only one really serious philosophical problem," Camus says, "and that is suicide. Deciding whether or not life is worth living is to answer the fundamental question in philosophy. All other questions follow from that" (MS, 3). One might object that suicide is neither a "problem" nor a "question," but an act. A proper, philosophical question might rather be: "Under what conditions is suicide warranted?" And a philosophical answer might explore the question, "What does it mean to ask whether life is worth living?" as William James did in The Will to Believe. For the Camus of The Myth of Sisyphus, however, "Should I kill myself?" is the essential philosophical question. For him, it seems clear that the primary result of philosophy is action, not comprehension. His concern about "the most urgent of questions" is less a theoretical one than it is the life-and-death problem of whether and how to live.

Camus sees this question of suicide as a natural response to an underlying premise, namely that life is absurd in a variety of ways. As we have seen, both the presence and absence of life (i.e., death) give rise to the condition: it is absurd to continually seek meaning in life when there is none, and it is absurd to hope for some form of continued existence after death given that the latter results in our extinction. But Camus also thinks it absurd to try to know, understand, or explain the world, for he sees the attempt to gain rational knowledge as futile. Here Camus pits himself against science and philosophy, dismissing the claims of all forms of rational analysis: "That universal reason, practical or ethical, that determinism, those categories that explain everything are enough to make a decent man laugh" (MS, 21).

These kinds of absurdity are driving Camus's question about suicide, but his way of proceeding evokes another kind of absurdity, one less well-defined, namely, the "absurd sensibility" (MS, 2, tr. changed). This sensibility, vaguely described, seems to be "an intellectual malady" (MS, 2) rather than a philosophy. He regards thinking about it as "provisional" and insists that the mood of absurdity, so "widespread in our age" does not arise from, but lies prior to, philosophy. Camus's diagnosis of the essential human problem rests on a series of "truisms" (MS, 18) and "obvious themes" (MS, 16). But he doesn't argue for life's absurdity or attempt to explain it—he is not interested in either project, nor would such projects engage his strength as a thinker. "I am interested … not so much in absurd discoveries as in their consequences" (MS, 16). Accepting absurdity as the mood of the times, he asks above all whether and how to live in the face of it. "Does the absurd dictate death" (MS, 9)? But he does not argue this question either, and rather chooses to demonstrate the attitude towards life that would deter suicide. In other words, the main concern of the book is to sketch ways of living our lives so as to make them worth living despite their being meaningless.

According to Camus, people commit suicide "because they judge life is not worth living" (MS, 4). But if this temptation precedes what is usually considered philosophical reasoning, how to answer it? In order to get to the bottom of things while avoiding arguing for the truth of his statements, he depicts, enumerates, and illustrates. As he says in The Rebel, "the absurd is an experience that must be lived through, a point of departure, the equivalent, in existence, of Descartes's methodical doubt" (R, 4). The Myth of Sisyphus seeks to describe "the elusive feeling of absurdity" in our lives, rapidly pointing out themes that "run through all literatures and all philosophies" (MS, 12). Appealing to common experience, he tries to render the flavor of the absurd with images, metaphors, and anecdotes that capture the experiential level he regards as lying prior to philosophy.

He begins doing so with an implicit reference to Sartre's novel, Nausea, which echoes the protagonist Antoine Roquentin's discovery of absurdity. Camus had earlier written that this novel's theories of absurdity and its images are not in balance. The descriptive and the philosophical aspects of the novel "don't add up to a work of art: the passage from one to the other is too rapid, too unmotivated, to evoke in the reader the deep conviction that makes art of the novel" (Camus 1968, 200). But in this 1938 review Camus praises Sartre's descriptions of absurdity, the sense of anguish and nausea that arises as the ordinary structures imposed on existence collapse in Antoine Roquentin's life. As Camus now presents his own version of the experience, "the stage sets collapse. Rising, streetcar, four hours in the office or the factory, meal, streetcar, four hours of work, meal, sleep, and Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday and Sunday according to the same rhythm …" (MS, 12–3). As this continues, one slowly becomes fully conscious and senses the absurd.

 

[Vegrau]

I love the French philosopher Camus's writings on the absurd, but I always found his stance on suicide (which is pro-life) troubling; however, I could never really provide a counter-argument. Perhaps you can? Below is an excerpt from 3.1 Suicide as a Response to Absurdity from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on him.

"There is only one really serious philosophical problem," Camus says, "and that is suicide. Deciding whether or not life is worth living is to answer the fundamental question in philosophy. All other questions follow from that" (MS, 3). One might object that suicide is neither a "problem" nor a "question," but an act. A proper, philosophical question might rather be: "Under what conditions is suicide warranted?" And a philosophical answer might explore the question, "What does it mean to ask whether life is worth living?" as William James did in The Will to Believe. For the Camus of The Myth of Sisyphus, however, "Should I kill myself?" is the essential philosophical question. For him, it seems clear that the primary result of philosophy is action, not comprehension. His concern about "the most urgent of questions" is less a theoretical one than it is the life-and-death problem of whether and how to live.

Camus sees this question of suicide as a natural response to an underlying premise, namely that life is absurd in a variety of ways. As we have seen, both the presence and absence of life (i.e., death) give rise to the condition: it is absurd to continually seek meaning in life when there is none, and it is absurd to hope for some form of continued existence after death given that the latter results in our extinction. But Camus also thinks it absurd to try to know, understand, or explain the world, for he sees the attempt to gain rational knowledge as futile. Here Camus pits himself against science and philosophy, dismissing the claims of all forms of rational analysis: "That universal reason, practical or ethical, that determinism, those categories that explain everything are enough to make a decent man laugh" (MS, 21).

These kinds of absurdity are driving Camus's question about suicide, but his way of proceeding evokes another kind of absurdity, one less well-defined, namely, the "absurd sensibility" (MS, 2, tr. changed). This sensibility, vaguely described, seems to be "an intellectual malady" (MS, 2) rather than a philosophy. He regards thinking about it as "provisional" and insists that the mood of absurdity, so "widespread in our age" does not arise from, but lies prior to, philosophy. Camus's diagnosis of the essential human problem rests on a series of "truisms" (MS, 18) and "obvious themes" (MS, 16). But he doesn't argue for life's absurdity or attempt to explain it—he is not interested in either project, nor would such projects engage his strength as a thinker. "I am interested … not so much in absurd discoveries as in their consequences" (MS, 16). Accepting absurdity as the mood of the times, he asks above all whether and how to live in the face of it. "Does the absurd dictate death" (MS, 9)? But he does not argue this question either, and rather chooses to demonstrate the attitude towards life that would deter suicide. In other words, the main concern of the book is to sketch ways of living our lives so as to make them worth living despite their being meaningless.

According to Camus, people commit suicide "because they judge life is not worth living" (MS, 4). But if this temptation precedes what is usually considered philosophical reasoning, how to answer it? In order to get to the bottom of things while avoiding arguing for the truth of his statements, he depicts, enumerates, and illustrates. As he says in The Rebel, "the absurd is an experience that must be lived through, a point of departure, the equivalent, in existence, of Descartes's methodical doubt" (R, 4). The Myth of Sisyphus seeks to describe "the elusive feeling of absurdity" in our lives, rapidly pointing out themes that "run through all literatures and all philosophies" (MS, 12). Appealing to common experience, he tries to render the flavor of the absurd with images, metaphors, and anecdotes that capture the experiential level he regards as lying prior to philosophy.

He begins doing so with an implicit reference to Sartre's novel, Nausea, which echoes the protagonist Antoine Roquentin's discovery of absurdity. Camus had earlier written that this novel's theories of absurdity and its images are not in balance. The descriptive and the philosophical aspects of the novel "don't add up to a work of art: the passage from one to the other is too rapid, too unmotivated, to evoke in the reader the deep conviction that makes art of the novel" (Camus 1968, 200). But in this 1938 review Camus praises Sartre's descriptions of absurdity, the sense of anguish and nausea that arises as the ordinary structures imposed on existence collapse in Antoine Roquentin's life. As Camus now presents his own version of the experience, "the stage sets collapse. Rising, streetcar, four hours in the office or the factory, meal, streetcar, four hours of work, meal, sleep, and Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday and Sunday according to the same rhythm …" (MS, 12–3). As this continues, one slowly becomes fully conscious and senses the absurd.

Trying to live is as absurd as trying to die. Meaning is self given. Reason is self made. Any attempt at trying to justify our choices and decisions we already committed bias. Because human will do anything to justify them. Bend any truth to fit into it. Spin any lies (delusion) coat it. Just so we think we are right and that gave them solace. That their life arent completely worthless. Its just someone who cannot accept the true nature of existence. Someone who have too many things to lose.

 

[MAIO]

Not sure if this counts, but my dad told me he would never forgive me. When you read in-between the lines it's fucked. I won't be forgiven for trying everything I could? and eventually doing the one thing that will allow me to longer feel like I do?
I'm not berating him, he's a good man, and of course he doesn't know the arguments for pro choice. (Whole family has been affected by my brothers suicide)
I don't want forgiveness, I want understanding.

Your dad played Frankenstein brought you a sentiment being into existence without your consent, you dislike like life so much you want to kill yourself and he has the audacity to tell you he won't forgive you for killing yourself?!

Have you tried talking to him/ telling him exactly how you feel?

 

[IfHeDiesHeDies]

" suicide is selfish, you merely transfer your pain to your loved ones." This one always gets me and makes me guilty.

 

[Vegrau]

" suicide is selfish, you merely transfer your pain to your loved ones." This one always gets me and makes me guilty.

They transfer it on me first and I have no problem giving it back. I dont owe anyone my existence certainly not them.

 

[stargazer]

"Your method will fail"

"You'll end up brain damaged/a vegetable"

"Think of your mother"

And any other general statement of misinformation "x method causes agonising pain over several hours" when in fact x method for example could be N.

And who could forget "God made you this way" (I'm an atheist). But it sure works a charm over many. Urgh *rolls eyes*

That's my contribution

 

[IfHeDiesHeDies]

They transfer it on me first and I have no problem giving it back. I dont owe anyone my existence certainly not them.

I guess we are in different age brackets. I am 48 and can't bring myself to blame my parents ( they are long gone in any case), but only to blame myself for the pain it would bring to my loved ones, my son in particular.

 

[Threads]

Dead revolutionaries don't overturn capitalism.

 

[Vegrau]

I guess we are in different age brackets. I am 48 and can't bring myself to blame my parents ( they are long gone in any case), but only to blame myself for the pain it would bring to my loved ones, my son in particular.

Yes no point to blame the death. But its still true. Nobody ask for this life. I just hate their expressions. The look of sadness on their faces. They can never relate or understand. They think only for themselves. I despise it. If they cannot face the consequences of their actions why give birth to me. If theyre that stupid then they deserve it all. Fking idiots.

But if I have a son.. I will live on for his sake. If its a child between me and him. Then I will live on..

 

[Finallyhere]

This whole article is a good read on being able to fight depression. But it doesn't take into account individuals with legit shitty lives.

https://medium.com/the-mission/mast...-the-life-you-were-meant-to-live-a9b4e357ddd9

"The world will miss out on what you have to contribute"

"Think of your family and loved ones

Those two are the only reasons I haven't done it yet.

 

[Made4TV]

The only one that's ever intrigued me is something my psychiatrist said. And mind you, this is a guy who says he would totally understand if I killed myself and he wouldn't be mad at me. He'd just be sad and miss me. So he wasn't trying to manipulate me. But he said sometimes he thinks about all the time that this universe has existed....and out of all that time, the time that our planet has been habitable is just a small part of that. And within that, this age we live in (with humans ruling the earth, if you will) is such a small percentage of time when you look at the life of our planet. It's like just a little blip. And we get to experience this brief time in space with all the technology and things being discovered all the time. We're living in a time in between potential asteroid catastrophes, in between a time when there weren't humans on this earth and another time when again there might not be humans (maybe wiped out by something) and that it's just kind of cool to think about what we get to witness, especially with the way our understanding of the earth and science is expanding by leaps and bounds all the time. Our understanding of the earth and space is so much different than it was just 20 years ago even.

Now that said, he also freely admits he was born as a white male in a (mostly) free country and has had a lot of advantages and good luck. He recognizes that my life has not been like that at all. But he still asked me to think about it. Asked me what I thought. It was actually pretty cool to think of all that. Still doesn't help me pay the bills or pay for therapy that I desperately need....but....meh. I dunno.

 

[ddutch]

Life ia great, why trow it away

Lol

Life is precious

Life is full of opportunities

Something like that

 

[BurningLights]

Your dad played Frankenstein brought you a sentiment being into existence without your consent, you dislike like life so much you want to kill yourself and he has the audacity to tell you he won't forgive you for killing yourself?!

Have you tried talking to him/ telling him exactly how you feel?

I wish I could, my family have never been the talking type, not long ago...wait over a year a go now I turned up at their place in tears telling them they need to call someone, they were kinda useless, never checked up on me really. Its just one of those things I guess.
I'm sure they'll never really understand, so all I am do is put in my note good arguments about CTB. there's very good points made by people here, I will be very select in what I write.

 

[Mr2005]

I feel like destroying pro life arguments.

Define pro life. I just say what I think so if I don't think that person should die I'll tell them. If not encouraging suicide because someone lost their toothbrush makes me pro life so be it I don't care. The bigger concern should be someone who'd encourage that

 

[Jon86]

'Think about your family.'

Nothing else, comes close to this basic response. I still love my family, always have.

 

[Arak]

Not exactly the worst: you get only one chance at life. Your existence is an infinitely small moment in time compared to the eternity (?) of the universe.
Do with it what you want/need for yourself/others.

But in the end, you gotta do what you gotta do ...

 

[MsM3talGamer]

"Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem"

Spoiler alert: Suicide is a permanent solution to my permanent problem.

 

[TAW122]

"Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem"

Spoiler alert: Suicide is a permanent solution to my permanent problem.

I've heard this one before and my response to their permanent solution is:

"A temporary problem isn't temporary if it persists time and time again until the end of time."

 

[BlackDragonof1989]

When people have an NDE and the entities/guides/whoever tell them it's not their time yet, I don't know if that's pro life though *confused* And then what about the suicides that are successful, are those meant to be? Is there a lesson in that?

 

[[NoName]]

I've been making a list. It's still in development and I would really appreciate anyone giving feedback

There are three tiers, societal, interpersonal, and personal reasons that people are pro-life. Societal will impact everyone, interpersonal will impact those around the person who committed suicide, and personal just impacts the one person.

Societal Reasons people are against suicide:

1. Who is going to do your job? Society needs people to do their part in order to keep it functioning. Take for example the high rate of doctors committing suicide. Part of the reason people don't talk about it is shame, but another part is who else is going to do what doctors do? They're so specialized and so few, people won't want to lessen any of the work they do. They don't want them to die, but don't want to really change their living conditions either.
2. Winning and Losing. Life is often divided into winners and losers, depending on how you view the world. You need to stay alive so that the bad guy (your abuser, bigots, health insurers, etc.) don't "win". Having the bad guy win emboldens them to do worse things, and hurt society further. So you need to keep going to prevent adding an imaginary point to their score.
3. The Message. The act of killing yourself is a strong message on how you view life. This tells others that a life like yours isn't worth living. This can be seen as insulting, discouraging, or may cause others to fear people making the same choice you did. Suicide is contagious. The idea of suicide being normal in any capacity can also be frightening.

Interpersonal Reasons people are against suicide:

1. A Wretched Loss. The loss of someone you know, someone who is close or even just an acquaintance, can be devastating. Along with grief, people have to then deal with the material impacts of someone dying. For example, the loss of a guardian puts the child/person being taken care of into material distress. Who will provide and take care of them?
2. Trauma. Grief is not the only thing people go through. Sometimes people get anxiety or PTSD from someone they know committing suicide.
3. A cancerous destruction. The people who knew you are forever changed, usually for the worse. Family and friend structures may be damaged or collapse under the strain of their grief and trauma.

Personal Reasons people are against suicide:

1. Religious: Some people's religion forbids suicide, so they feel compelled to be against it. Even if the suicide doesn't impact them, like hearing about it in the news, they'll feel it as an affront against their god and therefor "hurt" them as well.
2. Self-reflection: Your suicide could cause them to question why they are living. By being made aware of people choosing to die by their own hands, they realize they are making the choice to live.