Venting What even is Depression

[dazed.daydreamer]

Is depression even an illness? Is it something that should be treated with medication? Is it an individual failing, some consequence of modern life, some combination of the two? Is it a sign of spiritual suffering or weakness?

Despite being depressed for over a decade now, about to earn a degree in psychology, and potentially pursuing a career in mental healthcare, I have no idea what depression is. I'm skeptical of both medical and spiritual explanations. A lot of therapy strikes me as either pseudoscientific woo-hoo, overly robotic (like CBT), or just empty (the common "ecclectic" style seen today, and frequently complained about on here). Which I realize it's weird to say it's either overly-clinical or not clinical enough, because what does that leave? Is there really any hope? Is it only up to the individual to get to the source of their problems, if there even is a fixable source, and just figure it out?

I really wish I wasn't so skeptical of religion, because it would be such a compelling way to fix this, and I think it works like that for a lot of people. Having an objective sense of morality and purpose, a community, and an all-powerful, loving creator to rely on sounds like the perfect anti-depressant. But I can't just force myself to believe in a God or an organized religion that I just don't believe in. I'm not necessarily an atheist, I actually believe there probably is *something* that created the universe, but I just can't bring myself to believe that this God gives a shit about us, that the maker and sustainer of this world is good, or to believe the specifics of what different organized religions push.

Sorry if this is disorganized or not very coherent, my head is all over the place right now.
Should I try to pursue "spiritual awakening?" There seems to be no objective basis to it, and it seems to just make you vulnerable to the influence of religious or cult leaders who can easily lead you astray, whether they have good intentions or not. How could I justify believing in something not based on science or reason?

I don't think the notion of there being more to life is unfounded, so many people are drawn to religion and spirituality. It's probably some sort of need that most people have to be stable in life, to have some sort of objective explanation for all this and a purpose and stability and community and identity, which I also crave. But I can't bring myself to believe in a certain belief system without concrete evidence. I was raised Christian, and from many experiences growing up in the church, I am now very skeptical of organized religion and especially religious leaders. But going through life without this sort of objective belief system seems so dark. How do you overcome nihilism without it? Can you?

Is there value in trying to be a "good" person? To trying to improve yourself, living up to societal standards or some other established set of morals? Is this a possible end goal for everyone? Can I get there at some point, despite being so low-functioning and depressed now, my brain being so fried for so long? From how cruel life is to so many with seemingly no happy ending, with the world not perpetually heading in a better direction, there doesn't seem to be a reason to assume there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Why should things inherently work out for me when they never do for so many good people? Is there an inherent value to being alive, to persisting? It *feels* like we're meant to have a purpose, that we're wired towards objectivity, maybe towards religiosity, and yet there's no clear way to fill that void. If the God or Gods are real and loving, why not make it obvious? Why make humans struggle to find a hidden divinity?

I used to find comfort in the idea of there being nothing after death, because I was so scared of going to Hell for so long. I also just wanted to die so badly that the notion of living forever in heaven seemed exhausting; even if said afterlife was perfect, I'd rather just go to sleep forever. I don't know how I feel now. I think mostly the same, just a bit less convinced that there is an afterlife, and a bit more numb to it all.

Sorry again for rambling. My brain has been scrambled with the depression and just wondering if there's any meaning to this, craving religion and hating and fearing it at the same time. It seems there's no objectively clear answer at this point, and it's actually driving me crazy. I wish I just could've stayed genuinely religious and not questioned it. Even if it made me a bit gullible or vulnerable, and made me feel guilty about certain ""sinful"" desires I had, maybe I wouldn't be losing it.

 

[dragonofenvy]

Should I try to pursue "spiritual awakening?" There seems to be no objective basis to it, and it seems to just make you vulnerable to the influence of religious or cult leaders who can easily lead you astray, whether they have good intentions or not. How could I justify believing in something not based on science or reason?

Weird that you say this because my doctor today suggested this to me in an unofficial capacity because he has had experience with depression and PTSD from trauma and I was gonna talk to him at some point. He said that it helped him a lot and that he would've killed himself without it. There are a lot of people that this has helped as much as people try to logic their way out of it. Bear in mind, I'm not sure where you live, but religious cults are a very very very small amount of religious people. Like, 0.1% of the world population.

The problem with people who are depressed is that they're usually very smart (which in itself causes them to be depressed, among other things) and thus spirituality doesn't work as well. To pursue it you'd have to accept that some things are illogical or without explanation. I'm not spiritual or religious nor have I ever been so I can't say anecdotally if it's helpful or not, but tomorrow I'm supposed to talk to my doctor about it so we'll see how that goes and I'll report back on it.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Depression is a kind of "deep rest". A lot of different things, events, stress can make us depressed and lead to depression. From a biological POV, it's a protection mechanism of our brain to protect us when we're overwhelmed and literally "can't take it anymore". This once was a good mechanism when we were still cavemen but in the modern world, this behavior is counterproductive bc if we "shut down ourselves" to get the rest we desperately need we run into even more problems and stress. That's basically how a therapist once explained that to me and it sounds logical.

My own experience is similar. After a big failure in life I became depressed, "burnt out" and suicidal - mainly bc of stress. Well, I ended up here totally depressed, desperate and at the same time I really shut down everything - I stopped fighting completely. I was kinda numb for several months but after some time it was like a curtain slowly was lifted and "light" came back. Ofc that didn't happen in just a few days. The main factor that is responsible for my recovery is that the whole situation calmed down and I have no stress anymore. After nearly 2 years I'm hardly suicidal, don't feel depressed anymore - that's the health aspect. My actual problem that caused the depressive episodes isn't solved at all but that is whole other story.

There are many factors that can cause depression and it's a very complex topic but what I believe is that the earlier depression is treated the better the chances to heal. But - that is the crucial point - depression often develops due to external and often uncontrollable events some of which may persist for years or even decades. The longer it takes the harder it is to treat the depression and often there's a point of no return and the depression is chronic.

When I comes to meds they may or may not help - in most cases, they are probably only "drugs to cope" when they make our brain think that everything is bright but still stress factors that led to depression are still there and affecting our lives.

I hope my thoughts make a bit of sense. The whole topic is much more complex and it's not that easy, unfortunately.

 

[flkywch]

i don't think depression is that complicated really at heart. i've introspected for years to simple it down to 2 things. it's either an innate chemical imbalance, or persistent thought pattern causing negative emotions whether that's induced by a single event or regular pattern of events.

one cause you fix with drugs. one you fix with therapy and lifestyle changes to change your thought pattern

 

[Jack_Nimble]

Is depressive n an illness? Is it an evolved response? I say both. Just as type 2 diabetes is an illness if not taken care of. Yet insulin resistance is an evolved response to excessive caloric intake in order to store calories as fat for later use when food supply is short. Or as when squirrels hibernate.

I've read in articles about how a rabbit or squirrel may go limp in a predators mouth as a "depression" respect nse to avoid further pain. I think isolating during depression is actually healthy as it isolates you from those who hurt you. Or the battered wife. With depression she loses motivation to fight back which only results in even more abuse.

I read recently in Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents that depression or anxiety is often your bodies way of telling you that you aren't being true to your true self, but instead of the self others conditioned you to be.

When I finally moved out of my mom's house I didn't talk to my parents for a year long depressive episode. I am better for it.

Christianity is surely a false religion that I know causes depression. For example by hoping for miracles or help from an all good an moral being who does not exist. It's definitely immoral to punish someone for not believing in you while also refusing to show your face and have a simple undeniable conversation.

While the Bible is littered with immoral acts from this so-called god one of the worst is 1st Samuel 15:3. It is simply not possible to be all good and moral loving forgiving yet also command Israel to kill an entire nation of women, children, and babies simply because their parents have the wrong religion. At the least the isrealites could've raised up the babies as their own. But of course it's not okay to kill anyone for having the wrong religion.

The Bible is certainly made up by man for power. It was often a power struggle between the prophet and king.

Depression's Evolutionary Roots

Two scientists suggest that depression is not a malfunction, but a mental adaptation that brings certain cognitive advantages

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Eudaimonic]

Evolutionary theory and the treatment of depression: It is all about the squids and the sea bass

According to the analytical rumination hypothesis, depression is an evolved adaptation (like pain or anxiety) that served in our ancestral past to kee…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[dragonofenvy]

Weird that you say this because my doctor today suggested this to me in an unofficial capacity because he has had experience with depression and PTSD from trauma and I was gonna talk to him at some point. He said that it helped him a lot and that he would've killed himself without it.

Well, I had the conversation. In a nutshell he said that you can't be fulfilled in life unless you're helping others and that's why so many people feel an emptiness and that I should give myself over to Jesus Christ. As much as the bible and other religious texts have good messaging, plenty of people are satisfied in life without religion. Overall though the conversation I had with him felt a bit weird. I don't feel all that compelled to go to fix my life by going to Jesus or Buddha or whatever. Maybe spiritual awakening isn't the answer. Still, his comment about helping others might have some merit in it for you. Depends on whether you think people should / deserve to be helped if society has treated you poorly.

in most cases, they are probably only "drugs to cope" when they make our brain think that everything is bright but still stress factors that led to depression are still there and affecting our lives.

Yeah, I knew someone who had a life time prescription of sertraline. But you know, if they're still happy at the end of the day, I think it's fine.

 

[Jack_Nimble]

OP you may be interested in this. A psychiatrist who shares your views of education not genuinely explaining what they're selling us.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I really want to know this too. I've heard what @Praestat_Mori said here before. That 'depression' is a 'deep rest' response to stress. So in effect- it isn't an illness. It's the body's way of protecting itself. In that framework- it could be viewed as an evolved method of survival. So- a creature being exposed to danger may go and isolate and rest in a cave. But then, that doesn't explain why too much of that becomes a problem. Surely, if it's a device to protect us, we'd also reach a point where our brains/ bodies would be like- great, now we're rested, lets get back out there!

I sometimes feel like we become 'stuck' in a phase. So- someone who is happy about something one day but then, sad the next isn't necessarily depressed- unless they get stuck in the sad phase. Sometimes I wonder if there was something we didn't do on those few first initial days/ weeks of feeling depressed that meant we didn't snap back out of it. Almost like being depressed becomes a learned behaviour we then need to challenge to change.

It wouldn't then surprise me if those neural pathways then become so 'trodden' that our brains kind of change to 'naturally' or at least, effortlessly think in that pattern. That makes sense to me anyhow. I don't know if there is any science to back it up.

Like others have said also- we get stuck in negative feedback loops. We have no energy to do things that would make us feel better- like keep up good hygienne and clean living environments, exercise, socialise, pursue careers and interests. And, as we do less and less of those things, we feel worse. Plus, we have even less energy because we likely aren't getting good nutrition or maintaining our fitness or health. So, it's like, everything compounds.

I suppose there are depressions that strike with no reason though. A very positive friend of mine experienced a terrible shift in mood when the doctors changed her medication. So- that also makes me wonder whether chemicals, hormones or whatever are involved. Maybe they can be triggered by various things though. Including catastrophic events happening in life.

I really wish they'd work it out though! I find the diagnosis of mental illness to be so woolly, it borders on being dangerous. How many other 'illnesses' do they prescribe strong drugs for without truly knowing what's going on? I'd hope- not many although, I'm not even so sure of that with all the cuts in healthcare.

 

[Hollowman]

there is no such thing as a monolithic state called depression - Beyond Meds: Alternatives to Psychiatry

depression is always a mixture of many things...there is no such thing as a monolithic state called depression...the fact that people imagine that is the case, is a problem. (includes list of posts to rethink depression) … [click on title for the rest of the post]

beyondmeds.com

 

[CemeterySleeper]

The best way to view it is as a syndrome, a collection of symptoms that might have different underlying causes rather than a distinct disease. Bipolar for example is almost totally chemical, there may have been some environmental trigger at some point but once it is there it is chemical and it's depression is a lack of the neurotransmitters that surge in the manic state but then need to recover resulting in a low depression. Sometimes that doesn't happen everywhere all at once so mania and depression can coexist at the same time. The type of depression someone might feel after getting divorced would be a social cause of depression or being stuck working poor and burning out would be an environmental caused depression and while antidepressants might help they can only do so much because they are not addressing the root cause like they are in bipolar. So as far as why someone could be depressed it could be anything from dopamine or serotonin or norepinephrine being unbalanced (meaning the different drugs could have large gaps in helpfulness), or being in living or social conditions that would depress anyone (but might be more impactful to some people with chemical imbalances). Intelligence tends to be associated with depression because of a greater capacity to recognize and assess the social and environmental issues but not necessary a better ability to solve them.

The spiritual aspect I am less sure of, I think spirituality has helped me get through some very bad patches but I am still here on this forum. There are people I know of various different views of spirituality including none and they are all over the place in terms of their general contentedness, and I am probably the most depressed one. Probably doesn't help that my spirituality doesn't bring me that much comfort, moreso just a reminder to take it easy because none of this really matters lol.