Discussion WestWorld: Logan vs. William

[not_a_robot]

If anybody else here is into it? I just thought of posting it here because we already talk a lot about human nature, personality disorders, and the real value of beauty and wealth.
I just got to the end of Season 1, which is old, but I will try to avoid spoilers in the original post in case anybody wants to watch it later. Commenters feel free to give spoilers if you want, they're on Season 3 already and I'm curious what other people thought.
Logan vs. William, Season 1.
...
Actually, I want to leave this up for awhile and see if anyone else had any thoughts on it first, before I add mine.
If you watch Westworld, what are your thoughts on the journey of Logan and William in Season 1?
Did you feel the writers were making a deliberate social commentary/statement about human nature?

Also Dolores' final speech was really gorgeous: basically, "Life is a trap and we think we can escape, but the trap is inside us; it is us."
A beautiful dark commentary on human nature and the way our biology can affect our free will, I thought.

 

[Superfluous]

I didn't really read anything into it, and my brain's a bit fried at the moment, but I loved both seasons (no chance of watching season 3).

I really like movies and TV shows with non-linear time lines. You never fully understand either season until you finish the final episode of each.

 

[Orin]

William seemed like a very noble, chivalrous man, but ended up getting tired of Dolores anyway. If it's social commentary then i think the insight is humans are never satisfied.

The series likes to portray Logan as a villain. But in Logan's defense, he was just concerned about his sister, as he saw William falling for another woman. As monstrous as him stabbing Dolores in the gut looks, he saw nothing morally wrong in it as he viewed them just as automatons, and he did it to prove a point and knock William back to his senses. In retrospect, it was a stupid move. He should have let William "get it on" with Dolores, recorded it somehow, and send it to his sister to break up their marriage.

It was a "friendship" between an arrogant, over-confident hedonist, and a seemingly benevolent yet in my opinion, psychopathic individual.

 

[not_a_robot]

William seemed like a very noble, chivalrous man, but ended up getting tired of Dolores anyway. If it's social commentary then i think the insight is humans are never satisfied.

The series likes to portray Logan as a villain. But in Logan's defense, he was just concerned about his sister, as he saw William falling for another woman. As monstrous as him stabbing Dolores in the gut looks, he saw nothing morally wrong in it as he viewed them just as automatons, and he did it to prove a point and knock William back to his senses. In retrospect, it was a stupid move. He should have let William "get it on" with Dolores, recorded it somehow, and send it to his sister to break up their marriage.

It was a "friendship" between an arrogant, over-confident hedonist, and a seemingly benevolent yet in my opinion, psychopathic individual.

He didn't just "get tired of her".
When he wanted her and realized he couldn't "have" her because her brain kept getting wiped, he went full "nice guy syndrome" and dedicated his life to beating raping torturing and killing her as often as possible, and to literally destroying her world.
William was a perfect example of men who pretend to be nice to lure women because they lack good looks, but are actually much more psychopathic and hateful than the better looking men they are so jealous of. I thought the writers were making a commentary on the Nice Guy meme, and much of the dialog echoed what women go through when we meet these monsters ("I thought you were different"). His irrationality is on display in the way he constantly makes hateful speeches at her even though he knows her brain gets wiped nightly, so she has no idea wtf he's yammering about. Also highly psychopathic was his need obsessively destroy Dolores even though he had a beautiful wife waiting at home who loved him. Neglected his kid so he could spend time being unfaithful, with someone he hated. William was the common stereotype of guys who say "I'm a really nice guy" when what they really mean is "I'm a 'really nice guy' til the second I don't get exactly what I want, then I'm just a fucking psycho." (Being a fucking psycho has nothing to do with not getting what they want, they were psycho all along.)Women encounter these guys so frequently that they're a stereotype with a dedicated meme-culture. I felt like the writers were giving a little cultural commentary on that.
Logan on the other hand, due to being good looking and privileged, was a cocky confident asshole, but at least he was honest about who he was and his flaws were on full display, and in the end was much nicer than William. Which still wasn't nice, but in many ways preferable to the covert-psychopaths constantly proclaiming how "nice" they are.
It reminded me of a quote from Much Ado About Nothing which I will now mangle because I can't remember it, but it was to the effect of "I would rather the company of a plain-dealing villain than a backstabbing friend."

I'm starting season 2 now and I'm not liking Teddy at all. They keep giving him balls, then making him a pussy, over and over with each build. I'm guessing he will betray Dolores like Jon betrayed Dani in GOT, because war somehow suddenly becomes "wrong" whenever a woman is winning, tsk tsk, can't have that!
Armistice and Hector are the best characters, I love watching them fuck shit up. Felix is the best human, that guy deserves a best supporting actor emmy or something. They present him so dorky, but I swoon whenever he comes onscreen.

Imaginary people are so much more fun than real ones, I'm going total fanboy-nerd over this show.

 

[Severen]

He didn't just "get tired of her".
When he wanted her and realized he couldn't "have" her because her brain kept getting wiped, he went full "nice guy syndrome" and dedicated his life to beating raping torturing and killing her as often as possible, and to literally destroying her world.
William was a perfect example of men who pretend to be nice to lure women because they lack good looks, but are actually much more psychopathic and hateful than the better looking men they are so jealous of. I thought the writers were making a commentary on the Nice Guy meme, and much of the dialog echoed what women go through when we meet these monsters ("I thought you were different"). His irrationality is on display in the way he constantly makes hateful speeches at her even though he knows her brain gets wiped nightly, so she has no idea wtf he's yammering about. Also highly psychopathic was his need obsessively destroy Dolores even though he had a beautiful wife waiting at home who loved him. Neglected his kid so he could spend time being unfaithful, with someone he hated. William was the common stereotype of guys who say "I'm a really nice guy" when what they really mean is "I'm a 'really nice guy' til the second I don't get exactly what I want, then I'm just a fucking psycho." (Being a fucking psycho has nothing to do with not getting what they want, they were psycho all along.)Women encounter these guys so frequently that they're a stereotype with a dedicated meme-culture. I felt like the writers were giving a little cultural commentary on that.
Logan on the other hand, due to being good looking and privileged, was a cocky confident asshole, but at least he was honest about who he was and his flaws were on full display, and in the end was much nicer than William. Which still wasn't nice, but in many ways preferable to the covert-psychopaths constantly proclaiming how "nice" they are.
It reminded me of a quote from Much Ado About Nothing which I will now mangle because I can't remember it, but it was to the effect of "I would rather the company of a plain-dealing villain than a backstabbing friend."

I'm starting season 2 now and I'm not liking Teddy at all. They keep giving him balls, then making him a pussy, over and over with each build. I'm guessing he will betray Dolores like Jon betrayed Dani in GOT, because war somehow suddenly becomes "wrong" whenever a woman is winning, tsk tsk, can't have that!
Armistice and Hector are the best characters, I love watching them fuck shit up. Felix is the best human, that guy deserves a best supporting actor emmy or something. They present him so dorky, but I swoon whenever he comes onscreen.

Imaginary people are so much more fun than real ones, I'm going total fanboy-nerd over this show.

The most evil men I've ever encountered in life were physically mediocre looking or physically ugly looking men who pretended to be nice guys around women. Because their circumstances forced them to develop certain traits and resort to certain tactics. The good looking guys are mostly evil too. But I consider them to be less evil because, they are usually dumber and/or more honest. And they don't have to resort to all these vicious tactics. But even the few good men in this world, can't live like good men in this world because they usually end up having to deal with abusive girlfriends or wives who will keep pushing their buttons, leaving them two options. Staying single for life or constantly intimidating their girlfriend or wife into a state of fear just to have some peace.

 

[not_a_robot]

The most evil men I've ever encountered in life were physically mediocre looking or physically ugly looking men who pretended to be nice guys around women. Because their circumstances forced them to develop certain traits and resort to certain tactics. The good looking guys are mostly evil too. But I consider them to be less evil because, they are usually dumber and/or more honest. And they don't have to resort to all these vicious tactics. But even the few good men in this world, can't live like good men in this world because they usually end up having to deal with abusive girlfriends or wives who will keep pushing their buttons, leaving them two options. Staying single for life or constantly intimidating their girlfriend or wife into a state of fear just to have some peace.

Why does everybody pretend being single is not an option? That being in miserable relationships is the only possible acceptable outcome for a life, because breeding is just so fucking important, on a planet already grossly overpopulated?
I think that's the greatest flaw in our species. I think I need to just quit trying to communicate with people at all because I'm the only one on the planet who isn't obsessed with breeding ("loneliness" is nothing but frustrated breeder-instinct). I just cannot relate to other human-animals on any level at all because they're all so consumed by it. I am definitely not human and the only one of my species ever created.

I just got to the part in Season 2 where William's daughter shows up to keep chasing Daddy's nonexistent love/approval, ugh, disgusting. Season 2 is the point in every series where all pretense of originality is dropped and the writers indulge completely in breeder-melodrama, because that's all humans are interested in, I can't even escape it on TV. So gross.

 

[Severen]

Why does everybody pretend being single is not an option? That being in miserable relationships is the only possible acceptable outcome for a life, because breeding is just so fucking important, on a planet already grossly overpopulated?
I think that's the greatest flaw in our species. I think I need to just quit trying to communicate with people at all because I'm the only one on the planet who isn't obsessed with breeding ("loneliness" is nothing but frustrated breeder-instinct). I just cannot relate to other human-animals on any level at all because they're all so consumed by it. I am definitely not human and the only one of my species ever created.

I just got to the part in Season 2 where William's daughter shows up to keep chasing Daddy's nonexistent love/approval, ugh, disgusting. Season 2 is the point in every series where all pretense of originality is dropped and the writers indulge completely in breeder-melodrama, because that's all humans are interested in, I can't even escape it on TV. So gross.

A lot of people can't stand being single. I don't really know why... Probably because they don't know how to entertain themselves so they need someone to entertain them? I know some people are really weak and give in to peer pressure. Like if you are over a certain age and single, people think you need to be in a relationship and treat you like a freak if you resist. I don't give a shit about breeding or being lonely as well. I could be drifting through space, alone, far from Earth and it wouldn't bother me. I would make a good astronaut if humanity ever develops a decent way to travel through space. I often have deep intellectual discussions with myself.

 

[GinaIsReady]

The most evil men I've ever encountered in life were physically mediocre looking or physically ugly looking men who pretended to be nice guys around women. Because their circumstances forced them to develop certain traits and resort to certain tactics. The good looking guys are mostly evil too. But I consider them to be less evil because, they are usually dumber and/or more honest. And they don't have to resort to all these vicious tactics. But even the few good men in this world, can't live like good men in this world because they usually end up having to deal with abusive girlfriends or wives who will keep pushing their buttons, leaving them two options. Staying single for life or constantly intimidating their girlfriend or wife into a state of fear just to have some peace.

Severen, I promise you it's not always like this. Some people are good and when two good people click it can feel like heaven on earth. Having shared goals and a shared life can be wonderful. That said, holy shit, I've been fucked over by guys.

 

[not_a_robot]

Severen, I promise you it's not always like this. Some people are good and when two good people click it can feel like heaven on earth. Having shared goals and a shared life can be wonderful. That said, holy shit, I've been fucked over by guys.

The relationships that are heaven on earth just feel that way for the partner who hasn't figured out the other partner is cheating, in my experience.
My married affair partners always had such happy wives and kids at home, gushing about their perfect lives on facebook.

A lot of people can't stand being single. I don't really know why... Probably because they don't know how to entertain themselves so they need someone to entertain them? I know some people are really weak and give in to peer pressure. Like if you are over a certain age and single, people think you need to be in a relationship and treat you like a freak if you resist. I don't give a shit about breeding or being lonely as well. I could be drifting through space, alone, far from Earth and it wouldn't bother me. I would make a good astronaut if humanity ever develops a decent way to travel through space. I often have deep intellectual discussions with myself.

I want a job in one of those Antarctic outposts where they're totally isolated. But those are all for scientists, too late for me.

 

[RM5998]

I actually prefer Season 2, I think it has a lot to say about how storytellers write archetypal characters. The usage of various storytelling mechanics is ambitious, even if it doesn't always work. And I like the fact that it drops realism to talk about the way we write stories and discuss the kind of stories we write. After all, 'Kiksuya' plays well only if you see how they used Joseph Campbell's monomyth in a larger context.

I wonder what you guys would make of Legion.

 

[not_a_robot]

I actually prefer Season 2, I think it has a lot to say about how storytellers write archetypal characters. The usage of various storytelling mechanics is ambitious, even if it doesn't always work. And I like the fact that it drops realism to talk about the way we write stories and discuss the kind of stories we write. After all, 'Kiksuya' plays well only if you see how they used Joseph Campbell's monomyth in a larger context.

I wonder what you guys would make of Legion.

I'm still on ep 4 Season 2. Its not bad, have to finish before I can say which is best. I am a huge fan of Campbell but I hate how writers rely on him so much. So lazy. No originality, everything is always just regurgitated Campbell, over and over. Never any surprises. His goal was to explore storytelling as it existed in the past, not to constrain the future of storytelling to just few repetitive formulae.

Legion is on my list, I've only been avoiding it because isn't it part of Marvel Universe or something? I've never been a fan, but Legion does look good.

 

[RM5998]

I'm still on ep 4 Season 2. Its not bad, have to finish before I can say which is best. I am a huge fan of Campbell but I hate how writers rely on him so much. So lazy. No originality, everything is always just regurgitated Campbell, over and over. Never any surprises. His goal was to explore storytelling as it existed in the past, not to constrain the future of storytelling to just few repetitive formulae.

I totally agree, following the Campbell monomyth was the first step to ruining mainstream storytelling. Then Save The Cat came, and now you could automate screenplay writing with a couple of interns. I honestly believe that even a basic natural language processing algorithm on a computer would generate more entertaining results.
I personally think that the usage of archetypes in Westworld is there to convey a point, although that's pretty much entirely based on my personal interpretation of the last few episodes. And it seems that you're getting to the part where the season will either grab or lose you.
Over time, I've kinda accepted that as media becomes more and more expensive to produce, we aren't going to get much of a variation from the monomyth, unless it's in indie films that will now be made by and distributed on Netflix. All we can hope for from mainstream media is an interesting form of the familiar structure.

Legion is on my list, I've only been avoiding it because isn't it part of Marvel Universe or something? I've never been a fan, but Legion does look good.

It's a Marvel character, but from the X-Men universe, so it was a Fox property. However, Marvel Television did co-produce it, and it's essentially the passion project of Noah Hawley, the showrunner. The final season's coming out now, and from the trailers, it's shaping up pretty well. Again, the show isn't particularly unpredictable, but it does have an... interesting way of depicting its material.

 

[not_a_robot]

I totally agree, following the Campbell monomyth was the first step to ruining mainstream storytelling. Then Save The Cat came, and now you could automate screenplay writing with a couple of interns. I honestly believe that even a basic natural language processing algorithm on a computer would generate more entertaining results.
I personally think that the usage of archetypes in Westworld is there to convey a point, although that's pretty much entirely based on my personal interpretation of the last few episodes. And it seems that you're getting to the part where the season will either grab or lose you.
Over time, I've kinda accepted that as media becomes more and more expensive to produce, we aren't going to get much of a variation from the monomyth, unless it's in indie films that will now be made by and distributed on Netflix. All we can hope for from mainstream media is an interesting form of the familiar structure.

It's a Marvel character, but from the X-Men universe, so it was a Fox property. However, Marvel Television did co-produce it, and it's essentially the passion project of Noah Hawley, the showrunner. The final season's coming out now, and from the trailers, it's shaping up pretty well. Again, the show isn't particularly unpredictable, but it does have an... interesting way of depicting its material.

I have thought they've been using story-writing algorithms in mainstream novels/tv/movies for about twenty years now. It's hard to explain, it's just a "feel" of something missing, something "off". A blandness, predictability, a lack of developed detail. I have a hard time defining it except when it's right in front of me.
And we were never told how prominent use of the algorithm was because we wouldn't like it if we knew. I sometimes even wonder if writers like E.L. James are just actors hired to give a face and backstory for a "writer" if an AI-produced work becomes popular enough to require it to satisfy a fanbase.
The Simpsons did a show on it a few years back on how book franchises are developed that was similar.

I believe there are still human writers of course, just fewer than we're led to believe.

 

[Orin]

I actually prefer Season 2, I think it has a lot to say about how storytellers write archetypal characters. The usage of various storytelling mechanics is ambitious, even if it doesn't always work. And I like the fact that it drops realism to talk about the way we write stories and discuss the kind of stories we write. After all, 'Kiksuya' plays well only if you see how they used Joseph Campbell's monomyth in a larger context.

I wonder what you guys would make of Legion.

Yup, it gets really good towards the end too. Watching season 2 was like watching the movie Memento....only more confusing. Maybe that's why i liked it so much.

 

[RM5998]

I have thought they've been using story-writing algorithms in mainstream novels/tv/movies for about twenty years now. It's hard to explain, it's just a "feel" of something missing, something "off". A blandness, predictability, a lack of developed detail. I have a hard time defining it except when it's right in front of me.
And we were never told how prominent use of the algorithm was because we wouldn't like it if we knew. I sometimes even wonder if writers like E.L. James are just actors hired to give a face and backstory for a "writer" if an AI-produced work becomes popular enough to require it to satisfy a fanbase.
The Simpsons did a show on it a few years back on how book franchises are developed that was similar.

I believe there are still human writers of course, just fewer than we're led to believe.

You'd probably be surprised at how good some NLP algorithms are at writing Shakespearean dialogue. Here's a page that describes it in a somewhat approachable way. I've done a small amount of work in ML, so I always find the usage of the word 'computer-generated' script to be somewhat... off. Computers, when given the right info, could probably write better scripts than we could.

 

[not_a_robot]

Yup, it gets really good towards the end too. Watching season 2 was like watching the movie Memento....only more confusing. Maybe that's why i liked it so much.

I'll probably have to watch it twice to catch all the details and figure out the sequence lol.

 

[not_a_robot]

I totally agree, following the Campbell monomyth was the first step to ruining mainstream storytelling. Then Save The Cat came, and now you could automate screenplay writing with a couple of interns. I honestly believe that even a basic natural language processing algorithm on a computer would generate more entertaining results.
I personally think that the usage of archetypes in Westworld is there to convey a point, although that's pretty much entirely based on my personal interpretation of the last few episodes. And it seems that you're getting to the part where the season will either grab or lose you.
Over time, I've kinda accepted that as media becomes more and more expensive to produce, we aren't going to get much of a variation from the monomyth, unless it's in indie films that will now be made by and distributed on Netflix. All we can hope for from mainstream media is an interesting form of the familiar structure.

It's a Marvel character, but from the X-Men universe, so it was a Fox property. However, Marvel Television did co-produce it, and it's essentially the passion project of Noah Hawley, the showrunner. The final season's coming out now, and from the trailers, it's shaping up pretty well. Again, the show isn't particularly unpredictable, but it does have an... interesting way of depicting its material.

You were right, I'm on the Battle of the Mesa and I'm completely losing interest because of the lazy plot-holes, and if the whole rest of the season is just gonna be the writers self-congtratulatorially jerking themselves off about their noble craft of writing, I'm gonna hate every second of it. I still want to finish it but really, Writers Writing About Writing Because They Can't Think Of Anything Else To Write About is just such an overdone, hackneyed cop-out. It's not innovative. But I still hope the second half of the season will surprise me. I will plod through it.

(If the AI was half as smart as it's supposed to be, the hosts would not be making the mistakes they're making, like letting Hale live. They'd all have dialed up their aggression and dialed down their sensitivity. But Dolores is always making these dumb speeches about how smart and mean and strong she is now, right before she starts bawling and makes a dumb mistake. She's a caricature of PMS. Nice that Teddy found his balls for the Battle though. I guess they'll be gone again, next episode. Bye, Teddy's balls, see ya later.)