Discussion Uplifting, patronizing platitude pushers are no better than bullies

[TAW122]

In another thread (sick of this normie advice) as well as a few others threads (normie bullshit advice, toxic positivity), I explained about the kinds of normie and cliche advice as well as platitudes being annoying for me. Also, in various posts, I discussed about how normies' don't relate to us and what not.

In this thread though, I will be discussing why "Uplifting, patronizing platitude pushers" are no better than the bullies. First off, they come with a holier than thou attitude and patronizing, condescending vibe. They think that uplifting and generally pushing platitudes will somehow make things better. Maybe for other normies and just people who had a 'bad' day, but other than that, it is incredibly insensitive and also really annoying to be bombarded by such cliches in day to day life. Also, it reeks of pity and sympathy. We are not broken people who are looking for pity necessarily, we want solutions and the least they can do is to fight against the injustices and even better (if possible), get justice and vengeance on behalf of the victim. But no, they don't. They rather stroke their egos about how (superficially) 'caring' they are by signaling and shoving down their patronizing, condescending remarks towards someone who is already down on the ground. In fact, if called out, they become hostile and even rude. "How dare you try to tell me what to say!" "You deserved that!" or similar remarks.

Likewise, the more passive-aggressive types wouldn't necessarily be directly, openly hostile, but would throw more patronizing remarks like "We want you to be happy, that's what we want!" "We want to build each other up and encourage each other." while ignoring whatever the affected person is feeling or saying. It's dismissive and disrespectful towards the victim. But yes, they aren't much better than the original bullies because instead of helping the victim in a meaningful way, they decide to pity and throw banal, empty remarks in hopes that it will "help" build the person up (even if it doesn't), then gets mad and hostile when their remarks, platitudes don't work. It's not a surprise why the victims of bullying are oftenly alone and some lash out to do extreme violence (I don't condone it but can understand it), or those pushed to the edge and CTB.

Alternatively, the other type of uplifting, patronizing platitude pushers are the motivational ones. They use the tactics of "tough love" and while for some people it may work, but in other cases, it only either sows resentment (I am speaking for myself though, maybe a few others too), anger, and/or kicks the person down further down. It doesn't help address the original prepetrator (the bully), but instead focuses on tearing down an already defeated person. It too, could cause the victim to lash out, and/or CTB. I also don't get why people do this motivational crap, maybe it's to encourage and rally someone up. However, this only works if the person is already motivated and ready to begin with and just needs a spark or a push to go forward, not someone who has been kicked down, defeated, and ready to surrender.

Here are some videos to help reference what I mean:

Realism is not an illness, stop curing it:


Motivational crap is depressing and evil:



What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Brick In The Wall]

In alot of ways I'm inclined to agree. I do however feel like many do it out of conditioning and as a virtue signal. They usually don't know any better.

Most people here have faced a lifetime of shit. It takes alot to push most people to this point and they're at their witts end. If their life were so easy to fix I'm sure they would've done it already.

Most of us have also been failed by the systems that are put in place to "fix" people as well. Sometimes the reality is there isn't a way to fix the situation or quality of life.

 

[BabyYoda]

The first video is so relevant to me in my college life.

 

[Inferdan]

In another thread (sick of this normie advice) as well as a few others threads (normie bullshit advice, toxic positivity), I explained about the kinds of normie and cliche advice as well as platitudes being annoying for me. Also, in various posts, I discussed about how normies' don't relate to us and what not.

In this thread though, I will be discussing why "Uplifting, patronizing platitude pushers" are no better than the bullies. First off, they come with a holier than thou attitude and patronizing, condescending vibe. They think that uplifting and generally pushing platitudes will somehow make things better. Maybe for other normies and just people who had a 'bad' day, but other than that, it is incredibly insensitive and also really annoying to be bombarded by such cliches in day to day life. Also, it reeks of pity and sympathy. We are not broken people who are looking for pity necessarily, we want solutions and the least they can do is to fight against the injustices and even better (if possible), get justice and vengeance on behalf of the victim. But no, they don't. They rather stroke their egos about how (superficially) 'caring' they are by signaling and shoving down their patronizing, condescending remarks towards someone who is already down on the ground. In fact, if called out, they become hostile and even rude. "How dare you try to tell me what to say!" "You deserved that!" or similar remarks.

Likewise, the more passive-aggressive types wouldn't necessarily be directly, openly hostile, but would throw more patronizing remarks like "We want you to be happy, that's what we want!" "We want to build each other up and encourage each other." while ignoring whatever the affected person is feeling or saying. It's dismissive and disrespectful towards the victim. But yes, they aren't much better than the original bullies because instead of helping the victim in a meaningful way, they decide to pity and throw banal, empty remarks in hopes that it will "help" build the person up (even if it doesn't), then gets mad and hostile when their remarks, platitudes don't work. It's not a surprise why the victims of bullying are oftenly alone and some lash out to do extreme violence (I don't condone it but can understand it), or those pushed to the edge and CTB.

Alternatively, the other type of uplifting, patronizing platitude pushers are the motivational ones. They use the tactics of "tough love" and while for some people it may work, but in other cases, it only either sows resentment (I am speaking for myself though, maybe a few others too), anger, and/or kicks the person down further down. It doesn't help address the original prepetrator (the bully), but instead focuses on tearing down an already defeated person. It too, could cause the victim to lash out, and/or CTB. I also don't get why people do this motivational crap, maybe it's to encourage and rally someone up. However, this only works if the person is already motivated and ready to begin with and just needs a spark or a push to go forward, not someone who has been kicked down, defeated, and ready to surrender.

Here are some videos to help reference what I mean:

Realism is not an illness, stop curing it:


Motivational crap is depressing and evil:



What are your thoughts on this?

Not saying that you are wrong, for I completely support your opinion on the matter, but my curiosity asks what would be a good way to support those here? I ask so that I may understand better and know how to better respond to those here

 

[Brick In The Wall]

Not saying that you are wrong, for I completely support your opinion on the matter, but my curiosity asks what would be a good way to support those here? I ask so that I may understand better and know how to better respond to those here

I'd be curious about this question as well. Although I feel like there isn't a one size fits all type of answer here either. You probably need to take it as a case by case basis. After all, the only thing we really have to offer here are words. Words are completely meaningless in some circumstances.

 

[Inferdan]

I'd be curious about this question as well. Although I feel like there isn't a one size fits all type of answer here either. You probably need to take it as a case by case basis. After all, the only thing we really have to offer here are words. Words are completely meaningless in some circumstances.

I see where you're coming from, and I agree with you. I guess it depends on who it is and what you say. That is my conclusion to the matter, anyways

 

[TAW122]

@Brick In The Wall Yes, I suppose we are those people who have decided enough is enough and more or less reached that "point of no return". Of course, there are some people on here that do end up turning things around and changing their minds, so I do commend and respect their tenacity and will power as well as their ability to recover.

Not saying that you are wrong, for I completely support your opinion on the matter, but my curiosity asks what would be a good way to support those here? I ask so that I may understand better and know how to better respond to those here

I suppose the best thing to do is to empathize (different from pity and sympathy) with the person and voluntarily offer support to the person in need rather than to "push it into their faces". By that, it gives the recipient control over how, when, and in what circumstances to reach out rather than just forcing it on them.

 

[Inferdan]

@Brick In The Wall Yes, I suppose we are those people who have decided enough is enough and more or less reached that "point of no return". Of course, there are some people on here that do end up turning things around and changing their minds, so I do commend and respect their tenacity and will power as well as their ability to recover.


I suppose the best thing to do is to empathize (different from pity and sympathy) with the person and voluntarily offer support to the person in need rather than to "push it into their faces". By that, it gives the recipient control over how, when, and in what circumstances to reach out rather than just forcing it on them.

A perfect response. You have my respect from now on. I will put this to good use.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

The OP inspired me to think.


First, thank you @thrw_a_way1221221 for providing a solution to the problem in the form of guidance for those who truly want to help. I would add that it is helpful to state what specific support one seeks before stating the problem to improve the chances it will be provided.


I think anyone who has a problem is marginalized. They are at risk for rejection, retaliation, and even death if the solutions of "normies" do not solve the problems. If one cannot be brought into the fold, the survival of the fold takes precedence over the individual. To negate the solutions of the fold is to negate those who depend on it, so if they're a part of the fold, they reject and harm those they cannot help as a means of survival. This is, however, self-defeating, see "A related thought" below.


An example of something I just experienced to illustrate my claim of the risks of having a problem and needing non-traditional support...


I am on the periphery of a community of people who are marginalized, and many ctb because there are no solutions forthcoming for our torturous problems. The community seeks solutions, and they claim to provide support, but they fear addressing ctb because that means they have no power and the problem wins.


I do not talk on SS about the issue because it is controversial and I do not have the energy or desire to defend or educate. But SS has empowered me to approach the solution of ctb from a stance of pro-choice, and to practice inclusion for myself and others who consider ctb as the last empowering solution.


I had an issue that only the community could address, so I brought it up. I asked how they managed the problem knowing that it may not end with death, whether by ctb or natural means. I made it very clear I sought only to address the problem, not one's arrival at death.


A couple of people addressed the problem. A couple addressed their problems with the problem being valid. I restated the problem and asked if there were any more direct responses to it. When there were none, I suggested we close the topic and move on.


But folks felt helpless. They needed some power. So they addressed me. Was I sure I was experiencing that problem and not something else? Yes. Could I defend that? Yes, and I proceeded to do so. Did God not negate the problem, and provide the solutions for how to manage the problem? For them, yes, for me, no. Did continuing to fight the root cause not provide a solution to managing the problem? For them, it gave hope and motivation, for me, no. Did setting aside the problem and continuing in spite of it not provide a solution? For some, yes, for me it is in my face, and appears potentially insurmountable.


The escalation proceeded. Because the norms of the community do not help me survive or cope, then there must be a monster. The monster is the diesmpowering cause of all of the community's problems, but I and ctb were the problems in front of them which they felt they could overpower and therefore return to feeling capable and empowered, able to survive as individuals and as a group.


I was asked, "Are you pro-death, then?" I said I am pro-choice. I was told I should have known better than to bring the topic of ctb to the community. I was told to seek other resources, which gave them power by suggesting such resources, including suicide helplines. I was a problem, ctb was a problem; the latter had to go, the former had to conform to the group norm or go.


I tried repeatedly to graciously acknowledge my need could not be met there and to close the conversation. Ultimately, the person who rejected cbt and me the most, and kept the conversation going because she needed to validate her power and that of the group norm, claimed her power by being the one to deem the conversation over and commanded we move on.


A related thought...


I think innovators and those who seek equality/inclusion also risk marginalization, rejection, retaliation, and even death. Some examples that come to mind are Copernicus, Galileo, Darwin, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, and Gandhi. Beneficial change is slow to come. Groups do not realize that what these people seek is the betterment of the group, attainment of what it seeks, and increased odds of group survival via improved knowledge and inclusion.


So, @thrw_a_way1221221, I think the norm can turn people with good intentions into bullies, and potentially all with a need to survive into torch-wielding villagers. Having a problem or finding a solution that does not align with the norm seems to the villagers a monster. Sometimes, like Frankenstein, someone powerful within the structure of the norm hides, creates, and releases something to be perceived as a monster, which stirs up the normies to fight the creation rather than its creator.

 

[k75]

I realized after I wrote this that instead of specifically addressing this thread, I kind of responded to all your topics. But I don't feel like deleting it, so sorry for that.

*******************************

I feel like it's not something that's always worth getting offended over. I think it depends a lot on how we perceive the behavior. You can choose to look at it one way, or another. Both ways are valid, of course. But I don't think most people do this to be insensitive or bully.

When I experience this sort of thing from people, even though it's utter shit and I think it's stupid and unhelpful and sometimes pretty toxic, I know it's usually not meant maliciously. I can often tell that the person means well and is just clueless. They've just heard these things a gazillion times because that's what the mainstream thought process is, and so they just don't know any better and figure it must be true and helpful. So I don't really get offended. It's not their fault, and at least they kind of tried. I just grit my teeth and move on. If I had more energy, I might try to explain to them why it's stupid, but I know I'm not going to change any minds by myself.

The same thing happens around chronic illnesses. People say, "Well it would help if you just exercise more. Why don't you go for a walk? It'll do you good!" And I could get pissed off because I just finished describing how I can't take 10 steps without throwing up all day long or my back hurts so bad I'm practically crippled, but I just have to remind myself that person obviously has never dealt with severe pain or any lingering condition and they don't know. It's the number one bit of doctor advice, so they probably hear it all the time from there and think it's perfectly legit. (But for the record, when a doctor gives me that shit, I am going to get pretty pissed. That's a case when the person does know better and they're just being a lazy asshole.)

I suppose the best thing to do is to empathize (different from pity and sympathy) with the person and voluntarily offer support to the person in need rather than to "push it into their faces". By that, it gives the recipient control over how, when, and in what circumstances to reach out rather than just forcing it on them.

This is a great way to approach this. I completely agree.

 

[Brick In The Wall]

All of you are just having a bad day. Cheer up shit gets better. Can I refer you to my therapist or church?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

All of you are just having a bad day. Cheer up shit gets better. Can I refer you to my therapist or church?

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

At first I was like, "Oh hell no..."

 

[BlueWidow]

All of you are just having a bad day. Cheer up shit gets better. Can I refer you to my therapist or church?

In another thread (sick of this normie advice) as well as a few others threads (normie bullshit advice, toxic positivity), I explained about the kinds of normie and cliche advice as well as platitudes being annoying for me. Also, in various posts, I discussed about how normies' don't relate to us and what not.

In this thread though, I will be discussing why "Uplifting, patronizing platitude pushers" are no better than the bullies. First off, they come with a holier than thou attitude and patronizing, condescending vibe. They think that uplifting and generally pushing platitudes will somehow make things better. Maybe for other normies and just people who had a 'bad' day, but other than that, it is incredibly insensitive and also really annoying to be bombarded by such cliches in day to day life. Also, it reeks of pity and sympathy. We are not broken people who are looking for pity necessarily, we want solutions and the least they can do is to fight against the injustices and even better (if possible), get justice and vengeance on behalf of the victim. But no, they don't. They rather stroke their egos about how (superficially) 'caring' they are by signaling and shoving down their patronizing, condescending remarks towards someone who is already down on the ground. In fact, if called out, they become hostile and even rude. "How dare you try to tell me what to say!" "You deserved that!" or similar remarks.

Likewise, the more passive-aggressive types wouldn't necessarily be directly, openly hostile, but would throw more patronizing remarks like "We want you to be happy, that's what we want!" "We want to build each other up and encourage each other." while ignoring whatever the affected person is feeling or saying. It's dismissive and disrespectful towards the victim. But yes, they aren't much better than the original bullies because instead of helping the victim in a meaningful way, they decide to pity and throw banal, empty remarks in hopes that it will "help" build the person up (even if it doesn't), then gets mad and hostile when their remarks, platitudes don't work. It's not a surprise why the victims of bullying are oftenly alone and some lash out to do extreme violence (I don't condone it but can understand it), or those pushed to the edge and CTB.

Alternatively, the other type of uplifting, patronizing platitude pushers are the motivational ones. They use the tactics of "tough love" and while for some people it may work, but in other cases, it only either sows resentment (I am speaking for myself though, maybe a few others too), anger, and/or kicks the person down further down. It doesn't help address the original prepetrator (the bully), but instead focuses on tearing down an already defeated person. It too, could cause the victim to lash out, and/or CTB. I also don't get why people do this motivational crap, maybe it's to encourage and rally someone up. However, this only works if the person is already motivated and ready to begin with and just needs a spark or a push to go forward, not someone who has been kicked down, defeated, and ready to surrender.

Here are some videos to help reference what I mean:

Realism is not an illness, stop curing it:


Motivational crap is depressing and evil:



What are your thoughts on this?

One of the biggest problems I have with this type of advice is that it is always offered to you as if you've never heard it before and they're giving you some new perspective that you couldn't have come to on your own.
I mean, that implies that they're so smart and you're so stupid that you wouldn't think of something like exercising or going for a walk or whatever stupid simplistic idea they've come up with that is supposedly going to help you or solve your problem.
I can't tell you the number of times I've described all my issues with my thyroid and so forth and the first thing any person says to me is, "Have you seen a specialist? Or Have you seen an endocrinologist?". Well no, Skippy, I haven't. I'm too stupid to have thought of that in 25 years. Thanks for the brilliant advice.
>eye roll<
I even had a person who is a nurse suggest this to me. Not in a medical setting, but someone I know who just happens to be a nurse. But even though they should've known better in my opinion, they just couldn't help but asking if I had seen an endocrinologist.

 

[RM5998]

I once referred to this issue as people's thoughts lying "on the line between pity and condescension". Considering the uncomprehending reaction I received, which was followed by a spirited, emotionally charged defense, yeah... Not interested in talking to those guys again.

I'd concur with @GoodPersonEffed on the idea that people are unwilling to deal with helplessness. I'd add that they are also unwilling to deal with complexity and nuance. The only useful things are those that can be described in 25 words, in 30s, in 1 sentence, or any other bite-sized chunk that requires little to no thought and understanding of the situation.

@k75 I don't think that letting people off the hook for being careless, callous, uncomprehending and cold is a good idea. Yes, most people don't really want to think their words through, but that doesn't make it okay.

All of you are just having a bad day. Cheer up shit gets better. Can I refer you to my therapist or church?

I'll take your local drug dealer, thanks.

 

[k75]

@k75 I don't think that letting people off the hook for being careless, callous, uncomprehending and cold is a good idea. Yes, most people don't really want to think their words through, but that doesn't make it okay.

Of course not! That's completely not okay.
The thing is, I've never experienced attacks like everyone else is describing, so I can't talk about that. All I can do is talk about what's happened to me, and I specified in my post I was talking about my own experience. So for me, it wasn't intentionally cold and malicious, and by ignoring it and reminding myself they're just ignorant, I saved myself grief because I knew they had good intentions and I don't have the energy for a confrontation.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I'd concur with @GoodPersonEffed on the idea that people are unwilling to deal with helplessness. I'd add that they are also unwilling to deal with complexity and nuance. The only useful things are those that can be described in 25 words, in 30s, in 1 sentence, or any other bite-sized chunk that requires little to no thought and understanding of the situation.

Excellent observations. Agreed. I would add to unwilling, virtually unable. It is possible, but they have to be led patiently to a new and different point of view, which indeed has a lot of words and requires effort to comprehend.

The motivation to change usually happens when the pain of not changing becomes greater than the pain of change (a paraphrase of Joseph Campbell).

E.g., medieval folks were in no discernible pain when the Catholic Church told them why things are as they are, and Gallileo challenged the Church's story and therefore power to control. Far easier to agree with the group and the power behind it -- the comfort and protection of the known -- than to engage with a new idea that would initiate progress into the discomfort of the unknown, where no one yet was in control. Even if it was to their ultimate benefit. Some folks strive for the ultimate benefit; most do not if they perceive they're benefitting, or can get benefit without the extra work of inclusion of all.

EDIT: I use a lot of words. Challenges brains.
I appreciate those who make the effort to read and comprehend.

 

[TAW122]

@GoodPersonEffed Interesting example about the village and the villagers, it makes a lot of sense. Also, in regards to your story, yeah it seems like a bunch of close-minded pro-lifers who refuse to acknowledge that death can be a solution and that CTB isn't always a bad thing.

@BlueWidow That nurse is really ignorant, based on how you described the situation. Shame that even people in the medical industry don't know what they are talking about and are also incompetent.

@k75 Yes, it's true that they oftenly don't know better, but it's hard for me to ignore the unhelpful and ignorant platitudes being flung around. I try to though. And in regards to a doctor being ignorant, well yes, I agree with you, there is no excuse for such behavior.

@RM5998 I agree that those people should at least put more effort into self awareness and introspection, but they lack it and refuse to acknowledge even that, which makes it almost hopeless for them to change.

 

[TAW122]

I had another example of that, is whenever someone decides to befriend me to get them to open up (nowadays I avoid opening up or getting close to anyone in the future for this very reason, especially with any sensitive topics, and definitely NOT anything related to CTB). I regret doing so in the past because they have this hero complex mentality that they decide to toy with my emotions and instead of treating me with dignity, respect, and like a human being, they treat me like a child. They start questioning me, probing me, judging me and more.. Then when I confront them, they get hostile and unbecoming. So just a few years ago, when I was living in the other city (while working), I had people who I've known for a bit and whenever I wish to discuss something, they start patronizing me, questioning me, and more.

Other person: "Something must have made you feel this way. Tell me what is bothering you!"
Me: "No, I just want to have a discussion about the topic at hand."
Other person: "Well you wouldn't bring it up if there wasn't an issue to begin with!"
Me: "Look, I don't have anything in particular, I just want to talk about it."
Other person: "Then DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT!" *chuckles annoyingly*
Me: "I don't appreciate being judged, talked down to, and all the things."
Other person: "Don't tell me what to think or say!"
Other person: "You need to let it roll off your back. Don't worry about it/them. You need to move on."
Me: "I'm not dwelling on it!"

(Things get ugly from that point on..)

Well that was a just a snippet of a convo I had in the past, but you get some idea of how hostile people can be especially towards people who just want to have an honest conversation over some topic, but no, instead they decide to patronize and treat me like a pariah. I'm so done with people and that is also why (a big reason) there is NO help for people who aren't fit for this world or society, myself included. There simply is NO one I can have a rational, civil discussion about various serious topics without judgment, probing, patronizing, and predatory measures taken against me.

It's no fucking surprise that people like me feel alone, hopeless, and when we try to even talk about milder subjects, we get shut down, patronized, questioned (as if we were up to no good), belittled, treated like a child or an idiot, and more. Then society wonders why I (and people similar to me) end up CTB'ing and instead blames it on mental illness. (Note: I never mentioned CTB, I'm smarter than that and would not wish to risk my freedom/bodily autonomy). I just find it sad that there is no one out there (or maybe there is, but near impossible to find) that relates and is willing to have an open-minded, civil discussion about various things without pushing their views, beliefs, or talking down to someone. Society and other people are the problem, I can't expect them to see things rationally or even act civilly, and quite frankly, I'm not fit for this shitty world. Incidents like this (in the past and possibly in the future) are strong reasons and catalysts that push me to want to CTB to get out of this hellish existence. Fuck that other person and fuck the majority of society!

 

[RM5998]

@thrw_a_way1221221 I don't think there are any discussions where people don't push a certain point of view that they hold, one that they believe is more correct than another that has been presented by another. (Case in point: The previous statement, and to some extent this post.) At least, the discussions based in complete agreement don't tend to last long or analyze anything. There must be differences for a conversation to happen.

I think the issue is twofold: Firstly, people are bad at finding out which arguments need an acceptance of multiple points of view and which ones need a shutdown of an flawed idea. For instance, there are very few arguments you can have about computing theory that are based on opinion of what is the correct perspective on a problem. There are, however, many perspectives which have their own spheres of validity when it comes to, say, socio-political issues, like how to achieve equality in gender rights.

Secondly, the idea of multiple opinions being correct at the same time has given rise to the idea that pretty much all discussions need to end with "let's agree to disagree" as the best end point. Asimov's ideas seem particularly relevant:

The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.

People have discussions at large to not get to truer/more useful understandings of the world, but either to expand the reach of their worldview or to prevent it from shrinking. This is a natural desire, but the escape hatch of "let's agree to disagree" has presented a whole swathe of people with an option where they can protect their ideas from being proven wrong - which hurts. I should know, I've been that guy before.

And I think the thing that's to blame for this is the "trend of anti-intellectualism" that Asimov speaks of, the tendency to use the postmodern, democratic understanding of the world to deny the idea of other forms of thought, to exclude them from one's worldview, if one so chooses. And these ideas and people will continue to thrive, because this is, after all, a democracy.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

For me personally, I've had more 'help' from people who just LISTEN. The ability to listen is a very rare quality and few people posses it. I don't really have the ability, but since my life has gone down the toilet (literally) I've been trying to foster that skill.

Most people listen in order to reply, not to understand.

That's how conversation works; we've already made a subconscious judgement and decided on a response before the other person has stopped speaking. How many medical appointments have i gone to where that has been the case? That's because doctors are people too and being a doctor doesn't automatically make them good listeners.

I have met ONE good listener in my life. She was one of my mum's carer's in her care home at the end. She would sit and listen to me. Give me time to express how I felt. She talked way less than I did, and gave me all the time I needed, never rushing me or judging me. She didn't solve my problems, but when I left, I felt that someone cared and understood and would indeed look after my mum in the same way she looked after me. I trusted her and that helped a huge amount.

Also, ofc, fortunate people who haven't been through the mill, don't and mostly can't understand. How can you have real empathy when you have no experience of the person's situation? Again, some people can, but they are rare indeed. Most people can do nothing but judge the suffering by their own standards and so have nothing to offer but empty platitudes. Though, yes, they can still be sympathetic.

These are the things I have come to understand, whether I'm right or wrong. But it doesn't make it any easier and I often want to scream and shout at people to JUST FECKING LISTEN!

 

[TAW122]

@RM5998 I think you are right about people wanting to expand their worldview or preventing it from shrinking (I suppose all humans are guilty of this to some degree, myself included, but we can strive to reduce it as much as possible). In regards to the point about that we live in a democracy where there are people who will deny the idea of other forms of thought is fine, as long as they don't impose their way of life, will, beliefs, and values to another person who doesn't hold their views. By that I mean, when someone forcibly intervenes to deny the genuinely suicidal (not the impulsive kind or just one who didn't mean it, but one that is determined but somehow someone catches wind and foil their attempt) their choice to die that is wrong and unacceptable. Many people would say that freedom comes with limits, yes, but when one denies another the ULTIMATE right of choice, which is to choose to live or to die, then they have crossed a serious boundary and all other freedoms then is just moot (I digress though).

@Underscore agreed and I'm happy that you have someone who is a good listener, who doesn't judge or rush you. I'm sure that would help me, but ultimately, since my problems are chronic with no end in sight. I'm tired of fighting, struggling, to maybe, just MAYBE resolve it. By then it wouldn't even be worth all the trouble for perhaps a temporary peace (not even counting all the other problems that I am dealing with).

 

[Deleted member 1465]

@RM5998 I think you are right about people wanting to expand their worldview or preventing it from shrinking (I suppose all humans are guilty of this to some degree, myself included, but we can strive to reduce it as much as possible). In regards to the point about that we live in a democracy where there are people who will deny the idea of other forms of thought is fine, as long as they don't impose their way of life, will, beliefs, and values to another person who doesn't hold their views. By that I mean, when someone forcibly intervenes to deny the genuinely suicidal (not the impulsive kind or just one who didn't mean it, but one that is determined but somehow someone catches wind and foil their attempt) their choice to die that is wrong and unacceptable. Many people would say that freedom comes with limits, yes, but when one denies another the ULTIMATE right of choice, which is to choose to live or to die, then they have crossed a serious boundary and all other freedoms then is just moot (I digress though).

@Underscore agreed and I'm happy that you have someone who is a good listener, who doesn't judge or rush you. I'm sure that would help me, but ultimately, since my problems are chronic with no end in sight. I'm tired of fighting, struggling, to maybe, just MAYBE resolve it. By then it wouldn't even be worth all the trouble for perhaps a temporary peace (not even counting all the other problems that I am dealing with).

Unfortunately my confidant is long gone, these days I have no one.