UBI - possible or impossible?

[SadFoxDreamer83]

UBI - Universal Basic Income - possible or impossible?
Do you think that one day it will be a reality? Or do you think that it is another joke of this shitty world?

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Only if socialists can come into power.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

I think it's possible, but I also think the government will find a way to screw over poor people no matter what.

 

[dragonofenvy]

With AI taking over a lot of jobs it will have to be a reality eventually. Or slavery. It'll probably be slavery and the upper middle class / rich will make justifications for it. That's my prediction for 30 years from now which is probably wrong but I mean, with so many jobs set to be taken over what are you supposed to do with the people? Kill them? I suppose if they can't find the money for it they'd do that. It'll be the working class anyways so it's not like anyone cares because nobody cares about us.

 

[platypus77]

Not gonna happen. The problem with UBI lies on the capability to scale the model. We are incapable of agreeing on the most mundane day-to-day matters, let alone such an aggressive change that would impact the economy and social norms.

Although there has been some interesting research on the matter.

Unconditional Cash Study

OpenResearch is a nonprofit research lab that seeks to answer open-ended questions.

www.openresearchlab.org

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think I might be willing to live if someone else paid for it. So long as I wasn't being judged for that.

I can't see how it could happen though. How is the money generated? Who would still be willing to work? Maybe we would but, far less- surely? Surely there are essential jobs people don't necessarily want to do too. I guess perhaps AI and robots will eventually do it.

I have wondered the same as @dragonofenvy . What will happen to the working population when AI take their jobs? How will they earn enough to survive and still buy the crap the rich people still (no doubt) manufacture? Will people (finally) stop reproducing if they can't afford to support themselves? The economy will surely run very differently.

 

[Grav]

It's good as.an idea but impractical and the details kill it.

 

[platypus77]

I think I might be willing to live if someone else paid for it. So long as I wasn't being judged for that.

I'm trying something like it, but I'm the one paying for it. While I was preparing to CTB I've realized I had enough resources to do as I please for quite a while.

My plan was to leave the money as some form of amends to my family, but I think they will prefer some more time with me than money (I hope so),
and since there's no one struggling financially at the moment I'm just going all in.

It's been an eye opener, no pressure to do nothing, no one to report to, I spend my days reading, working on my pet projects, doing whatever and whenever I feel like it. I wish I could live like this forever. Maybe try a new career.

Eventually the money will run out and the plan to CTB might be back on again, but I'm taking the chance to see how things will turn out. After all, all of it came from me grinding life like a lunatic just so I wouldn't end up homeless of unable to take care of myself if get to old age.

I can't see how it could happen thought. How is the money generated? Who would still be willing to work? Maybe we would but, far less- surely? Surely there are essential jobs people don't necessarily want to do too. I guess perhaps AI and robots will eventually do it.

This is the sad part of communism that nobody likes to talk about and until now there's still no proposals on how to solve it.

Humanity thrives on slavery, and we're still living it. Just a different form of it. The system is built in a way that without people feeling the need to subject them selves to a low paying abusive shitty job, it'll probably collapse pretty quickly.

Even in a communist society someone will have to do the dirty work, guess how they solved it? Dictatorship, people will be forced to do it weather the like it or not. No choosing, no way to escape. I hate capitalism but being honest, it's the less worse option we have.

AI makes this question even more delicate given governments are loosing power by the day and private companies are now in control of what the masses consume, think and live their lives. I never thought I would live to see the death of capitalism and what's coming next scares me even more.

Tech by itself is not the problem, they're just tools. We're just managing to make the worst of it.

I have wondered the same as @dragonofenvy . What will happen to the working population when AI take their jobs? How will they earn enough to survive and still buy the crap the rich people still (no doubt) manufacture? Will people (finally) stop reproducing if they can't afford to support themselves? The economy will surely run very differently.

My bet is either civil war, Idiocracy or mad max. lol.

 

[Rabscuttle]

I'm trying something like it, but I'm the one paying for it. While I was preparing to CTB I've realized I had enough resources to do as I please for quite a while.

My plan was to leave the money as some form of amends to my family, but I think they will prefer some more time with me than money (I hope so),
and since there's no one struggling financially at the moment I'm just going all in.

It's been an eye opener, no pressure to do nothing, no one to report to, I spend my days reading, working on my pet projects, doing whatever and whenever I feel like it. I wish I could live like this forever. Maybe try a new career.

Eventually the money will run out and the plan to CTB might be back on again, but I'm taking the chance to see how things will turn out. After all, all of it came from me grinding life like a lunatic just so I wouldn't end up homeless of unable to take care of myself if get to old age.


This is the sad part of communism that nobody likes to talk about and until now there's still no proposals on how to solve it.

Humanity thrives on slavery, and we're still living it. Just a different form of it. The system is built in a way that without people feeling the need to subject them selves to a low paying abusive shitty job, it'll probably collapse pretty quickly.

Even in a communist society someone will have to do the dirty work, guess how they solved it? Dictatorship, people will be forced to do it weather the like it or not. No choosing, no way to escape. I hate capitalism but being honest, it's the less worse option we have.

AI makes this question even more delicate given governments are loosing power by the day and private companies are now in control of what the masses consume, think and live their lives. I never thought I would live to see the death of capitalism and what's coming next scares me even more.

Tech by itself is not the problem, they're just tools. We're just managing to make the worst of it.


My bet is either civil war, Idiocracy or mad max. lol.

Humans have done undesirable tasks for our entire existence. I think in a communist society, there would be such a mental and spiritual shift in the human psyche, I think there would absolutely be people willing to do the undesirable/menial tasks for the betterment of the society as a whole. Plus The establishment of global communist society likely implies immense technological advancement that would aid us in completing these necessary tasks.

Capitalism is hurling us towards climate change induced societal collapse.

To answer OPs question, I think the capitalists would only ever implement UBI as a means of placating the masses that are on the verge of revolt. Reform is their greatest weapon.

 

[platypus77]

Humans have done undesirable tasks for our entire existence. I think in a communist society, there would be such a mental and spiritual shift in the human psyche, I think there would absolutely be people willing to do the undesirable/menial tasks for the betterment of the society as a whole. Plus The establishment of global communist society likely implies immense technological advancement that would aid us in completing these necessary tasks.

Capitalism is hurling us towards climate change induced societal collapse.

To answer OPs question, I think the capitalists would only ever implement UBI as a means of placating the masses that are on the verge of revolt. Reform is their greatest weapon.

In small scale it works pretty well, I know of some "off the grid" eco villages where people work and live by producing they're own resources pretty happily. The trick is, they will not easily accept anyone in their group. That's why it works.

The issue is that the communist model doesn't scale without compulsive enforcement, as it's not in the human nature to share the results of their efforts with people they think aren't worth it.

Slavery has been "officially" abolished worldwide for about 45 years as of this year. Historically is too soon to think we're capable of such agressive change in so little time.

On the rational level, is possible and we already have more than enough knowledge and technology to apply it. We're just not capable of coordination at large scale.

Even in this community we can't even agree on the reactions available, some will like them to be less happy, others don't care or think we should have all possible emojis to use as we like.

 

[nogods4me]

Certain radical changes can only happen in parallel or after other more radical changes. Those would be truly radical in that they would change the very nature and biology of future versions of current homo sapiens. Otherwise...nothin' new under the sun, as some would say.

 

[Rabscuttle]

In small scale it works pretty well, I know of some "off the grid" eco villages where people work and live by producing they're own resources pretty happily. The trick is, they will not easily accept anyone in their group. That's why it works.

The issue is that the communist model doesn't scale without compulsive enforcement, as it's not in the human nature to share the results of their efforts with people they think aren't worth it.

Slavery has been "officially" abolished worldwide for about 45 years as of this year. Historically is too soon to think we're capable of such agressive change in so little time.

On the rational level, is possible and we already have more than enough knowledge and technology to apply it. We're just not capable of coordination at large scale.

Even in this community we can't even agree on the reactions available, some will like them to be less happy, others don't care or think we should have all possible emojis to use as we like.

The very essence of compulsive enforcement implies the existence of a state apparatus that is guiding the transition towards communism. Communism is a stateless classless moneyless society. Socialism has taken on the definition of the transitory state towards communism. Yes as first it may take some force or compulsion, but it may be necessary to break through the horrors beaten into sentient beings by the reality of nature.

It's not human nature that is the issue, it's the nature of hundreds of million of years of animals predating on one another for food, which has left a deep deep fear within the fabrics of our minds. It can not be undone by individual will power.

 

[SVEN]

Only possible as long as more folk are willing to work to support unknown others who just prefer to enjoy life doing what they choose. Here in Britain we're already pretty near the cutoff point where fewer people work and pay taxes than claim benefits. So the burden of higher and higher taxation is imposed on fewer and fewer people.

 

[platypus77]

The very essence of compulsive enforcement implies the existence of a state apparatus that is guiding the transition towards communism. Communism is a stateless classless moneyless society. Socialism has taken on the definition of the transitory state towards communism. Yes as first it may take some force or compulsion, but it may be necessary to break through the horrors beaten into sentient beings by the reality of nature.

It's not human nature that is the issue, it's the nature of hundreds of million of years of animals predating on one another for food, which has left a deep deep fear within the fabrics of our minds. It can not be undone by individual will power.

I get where you're coming from. People like you make me feel like there might be a little hope for humanity to turn things around. Maybe I've just lost my faith, we could be so much better. I just don't believe it will happen during my time in this purgatory.

Only possible as long as more folk are willing to work to support unknown others who just prefer to enjoy life doing what they choose. Here in Britain we're already pretty near the cutoff point where fewer people work and pay taxes than claim benefits. So the burden of higher and higher taxation is imposed on fewer and fewer people.

Taxing the machines could be a way. The problem is, machine owner's can not influence power for this to work. Otherwise we're just killing capitalism to create techno feudalism.

 

[Rabscuttle]

I get where you're coming from. People like you make me feel like there might be a little hope for humanity to turn things around. Maybe I've just lost my faith, we could be so much better. I just don't believe it will happen during my time in this purgatory.



Taxing the machines could be a way. The problem is, machine owner's can not influence power for this to work. Otherwise we're just killing capitalism to create techno feudalism.

Oh I don't have hope. The communism ship has sailed in the late 40s and 50s when the US saw fit to make enemies out of China and the USSR.

 

[platypus77]

Oh I don't have hope. The communism ship has sailed in the late 40s and 50s when the US saw fit to make enemies out of China and the USSR.

Yeah, to me even if it this wasn't a thing. I do believe the answer is not on these old models, we need a new one. But the scale of the problem is so huge that it doesn't fit in a single brain to articulate.

Let's suppose developed countries manage to get to the stage were people aren't forced into "slavery" anymore. On a nation level this could work for some time, but to maintain it's state they would need to subside other countries development to also get into that stage as well. Otherwise they will be eaten alive by the competing models. My brain hurts just to think of.

Maybe some day we'll have some tools to simulate and explore different models before even attempting to apply it.

AI is already hitting a wall in it's advancements, all the AGI, SSI and UBI fairy tales people been discussing these days are still a few technological leaps ahead, nobody really knows. Maybe in another life we'll get it done.