Venting "trust no one but yourself"

[Darkover]

The idea of trusting no one but yourself is rooted in the importance of self-reliance, but it has its limitations. Humans are inherently interdependent; we rely on others for support, knowledge, and survival. Whether it's trusting doctors with our health or engineers with the safety of infrastructure, we regularly depend on the expertise of others. Additionally, trusting only yourself can lead to overconfidence in your own judgment, making you blind to cognitive biases and emotional blind spots. Often, outside perspectives help us see things more clearly and objectively.

Building meaningful relationships requires a degree of trust, and these connections can lead to personal growth, collaboration, and better mental well-being. By cutting off trust in others, you risk isolating yourself and missing out on those benefits. Finally, no one can be an expert in everything. Relying on experts where you lack knowledge allows for better decision-making and learning.

While skepticism is healthy, complete distrust of others can limit your ability to grow and thrive. It's important to find a balance between self-trust and placing trust in others.

 

[Forever Sleep]

True. I think a gentle skepticism can help us though. If a friend keeps backing out on plans, it's fine to keep trying but, don't set your heart on the next thing you plan. Realise that it may or may not happen. Live in a building but if you start to see large cracks appear- get out and call the people that maintain it. It's like- trust up to a point and remember if someone is unreliable.

It's a sad lesson to learn but, I think most people are out for themselves. They'll help you if it helps them. Some people are more true to their word than others. We probably all take risks when we form new friendships, even buy stuff from a new company. But, we learn as we go along. If that friend turns out to be flakey- we then choose on whether they're worth continuing with. Companies at least usually have guarantees if things don't go to plan.

True though, it's hard to live without depending on others. I think my feeling is- I'm never surprised now when people let me down.

 

[Pluto]

 

[EvisceratedJester]

It's a sad lesson to learn but, I think most people are out for themselves. They'll help you if it helps them.

Honestly, I feel like that's way too much of a simplified worldview. There are a lot of cases, for example, of people regularly engaging in small acts of true altruism, such as handing out money to the poor or helping someone with their stroller get onto the bus. Back in September, I ended up vomiting while waiting at the bus stop and a man came over to check on me and even gave me some money and told me to use it to buy something. These are acts that cannot be explained by reciprocity (doing them in the hopes that others will return the favour) or kin selection (we're all strangers here). These acts are, in some capacity, selfless. They don't benefit the person engaging with them. There are much more extreme examples of this, such as in the case of a man who pushed a lady out of the way of a falling elevator. He'd end up getting crushed to death, all to save this lady who he doesn't know.

This type of overly pessimistic view of humans is ridiculous, just like the overly positive view of our species. Humanity as a whole is complex.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Honestly, I feel like that's way too much of a simplified worldview. There are a lot of cases, for example, of people regularly engaging in small acts of true altruism, such as handing out money to the poor or helping someone with their stroller get onto the bus. Back in September, I ended up vomiting while waiting at the bus stop and a man came over to check on me and even gave me some money and told me to use it to buy something. These are acts that cannot be explained by reciprocity (doing them in the hopes that others will return the favour) or kin selection (we're all strangers here). These acts are, in some capacity, selfless. They don't benefit the person engaging with them. There are much more extreme examples of this, such as in the case of a man who pushed a lady out of the way of a falling elevator. He'd end up getting crushed to death, all to save this lady who he doesn't know.

This type of overly pessimistic view of humans is ridiculous, just like the overly positive view of our species. Humanity as a whole is complex.

Fair enough and yes- it probably is too simplistic. Not that I was a big 'Friends' fan, but this episode always stuck in my mind- about altruism:



In that- sometimes we do nice things for others because we like to feel appreciated/ needed/ we like to see them happy. So- is that truly selfless? We maybe did it mostly for their good but, it's also partly about us. How others will view us. That isn't about reciprocation. That's about our sense of self. Being seen as a good person. Having said that, some people absolutely would help others- even if no one was around to see. I'm not so totally cynical that I can't recognise that there are good people in this world.

Regardless though, this thread was about expectations ultimately and, I'd stand by that- you can't expect other people to help you. It's going to depend on who you happen to come across that day. If they do- that's beautiful but, it seems far safer to mostly rely on yourself if you can.

I'm not sure friendships and relationships can be sustained on selfless altruism either. Would you want to be with someone you felt you were constantly having to do favours for? Things you didn't actually want to do? With nothing in return.

I think that's an interesting question in itself: Can true altruism only exist if you are unhappy about doing whatever it is? Maybe I'll make a separate thread...

 

[EvisceratedJester]

In that- sometimes we do nice things for others because we like to feel appreciated/ needed/ we like to see them happy. So- is that truly selfless? We maybe did it mostly for their good but, it's also partly about us. How others will view us. That isn't about reciprocation. That's about our sense of self. Being seen as a good person. Having said that, some people absolutely would help others- even if no one was around to see. I'm not so totally cynical that I can't recognise that there are good people in this world.

Regardless though, this thread was about expectations ultimately and, I'd stand by that- you can't expect other people to help you. It's going to depend on who you happen to come across that day. If they do- that's beautiful but, it seems far safer to mostly rely on yourself if you can.

I'm not sure friendships and relationships can be sustained on selfless altruism either. Would you want to be with someone you felt you were constantly having to do favours for? Things you didn't actually want to do? With nothing in return.

I think that's an interesting question in itself: Can true altruism only exist if you are unhappy about doing whatever it is? Maybe I'll make a separate thread...

Again, this argument hinges on an incredibly simplified view of how people work. There are still a lot of cases of people engaging in acts of altruism that don't end in them even getting to feel satisfied afterwards. The example of the man who died trying to save that lady really highlights this. He knew he was probably going to die but he still did save her anyway. He doesn't get anything out of it since he literally died. Another example of this is back when I pushed a man in a wheelchair across the street. I didn't do it for any of the reasons you mentioned and it didn't leave me feeling a certain way. I mostly did it because he couldn't get across the street and was asking for help and no one was helping him. That's it. At most, I feel anger towards the adults around who just ignored him and stood on the other side of the street watching me, a middle-schooler push him across the street, but that's about it. Otherwise, I feel natural about the entire thing.

Along with that, if feelings of appreciation and happiness aid in encouraging others to do good then I don't really see that as a bad thing. Humans learn via reinforcement, so people being positively reinforced to help others without expecting anything in return is fine. This also doesn't support the notion that people are just out there for themselves. Feeling a little bit good after helping someone out doesn't negate the fact that you aren't necessarily getting much in return. Especially when the potential rewards that may come from acting in a manner that isn't altruistic commonly come with more benefits to the self. Feeling a bit good isn't going to help me much, especially since that feeling will quickly die away. If I find some cash on the ground and I'm broke, the benefits of just taking it for myself outweigh any temporary feelings of good I might have if I were to give it to the owner whose pocket it fell out of. Still, you'll have people in these situations hand the cash over to the person, even if they knew they could have easily gotten away with just taking it for themself.

I feel like in some capacity, you can expect others to help you. This is especially the case when talking about cultures outside of the West. A lot of people like helping others. The reason why we've lasted so long as a species is partly due to our willingness to those around us. Being completely self-reliant is something that only seems food on a surface level. Irl, however, if anything happens to you there is a good chance that you'll need external support. The whole being overly self-reliant philosophy kind of feels like a byproduct of the hyper-individualistic capitalist society we live in today. It's quite a destructive mindset too. While it's good to be able to rely on yourself, having people in your life who you can rely on is a much safer bet and is what helps to create safer and healthier communities.

Most relationships also revolve around constantly doing favours for each other. For a relationship to work, there needs to be some sacrifices on both ends. You do it because you care for the person and you want the best for them.

If you are doing something for someone despite it making you unhappy, then that would be an act of true altruism. You are sacrificing your happiness for the sake of aiding another. I don't get your argument here.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Again, this argument hinges on an incredibly simplified view of how people work. There are still a lot of cases of people engaging in acts of altruism that don't end in them even getting to feel satisfied afterwards. The example of the man who died trying to save that lady really highlights this. He knew he was probably going to die but he still did save her anyway. He doesn't get anything out of it since he literally died. Another example of this is back when I pushed a man in a wheelchair across the street. I didn't do it for any of the reasons you mentioned and it didn't leave me feeling a certain way. I mostly did it because he couldn't get across the street and was asking for help and no one was helping him. That's it. At most, I feel anger towards the adults around who just ignored him and stood on the other side of the street watching me, a middle-schooler push him across the street, but that's about it. Otherwise, I feel natural about the entire thing.

Along with that, if feelings of appreciation and happiness aid in encouraging others to do good then I don't really see that as a bad thing. Humans learn via reinforcement, so people being positively reinforced to help others without expecting anything in return is fine. This also doesn't support the notion that people are just out there for themselves. Feeling a little bit good after helping someone out doesn't negate the fact that you aren't necessarily getting much in return. Especially when the potential rewards that may come from acting in a manner that isn't altruistic commonly come with more benefits to the self. Feeling a bit good isn't going to help me much, especially since that feeling will quickly die away. If I find some cash on the ground and I'm broke, the benefits of just taking it for myself outweigh any temporary feelings of good I might have if I were to give it to the owner whose pocket it fell out of. Still, you'll have people in these situations hand the cash over to the person, even if they knew they could have easily gotten away with just taking it for themself.

I feel like in some capacity, you can expect others to help you. This is especially the case when talking about cultures outside of the West. A lot of people like helping others. The reason why we've lasted so long as a species is partly due to our willingness to those around us. Being completely self-reliant is something that only seems food on a surface level. Irl, however, if anything happens to you there is a good chance that you'll need external support. The whole being overly self-reliant philosophy kind of feels like a byproduct of the hyper-individualistic capitalist society we live in today. It's quite a destructive mindset too. While it's good to be able to rely on yourself, having people in your life who you can rely on is a much safer bet and is what helps to create safer and healthier communities.

Most relationships also revolve around constantly doing favours for each other. For a relationship to work, there needs to be some sacrifices on both ends. You do it because you care for the person and you want the best for them.

If you are doing something for someone despite it making you unhappy, then that would be an act of true altruism. You are sacrificing your happiness for the sake of aiding another. I don't get your argument here.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing at all. I think it's a wonderful thing in fact. I wish more people were like it. I'm more looking at it in terms of analysing it- because I find it fascinating.

So- the guy with the lift. Obviously- an absolutely incredible act of heroism, bravery, selflessness. Maybe he didn't have time to think of it in the moment but, there is also the matter of- could he just stand by and watch someone die? Could he live with himself after that? In that moment, did he absolutely know he was going to die in order to save her? Did he do it more because he simply couldn't bare to see it happen?

The same with you and the man in the wheelchair. Obviously- that's to be applauded. You couldn't stand to watch him struggle and no one else help. Maybe you couldn't live with yourself ignoring him because you've been taught to help people? I was taught to put others first. The guilt starts swelling up in me if I'm in a situation where I wonder if I should help but, don't. Say- offering your seat to someone on a bus. Some people actually get offended that you think they look that old! Sometimes it has backfired on me.

I wonder though- did a part of you like the fact you were showing the other adults up that had ignored the man? Not saying you did it for that reason. Not saying you shouldn't have done it- obviously. I just think it's interesting to analyse why we do things and why others don't for instance.

But sure, I do have a cynical view of people I suppose. Maybe because friends and family have let me down and, I've done the same to them on occasion. It's a defensive mechanism I suppose to try not to rely on others. But sure, it isn't a healthy way to live. I doubt I'd be on this forum if I lived healthily, had balanced and loving relationships and trusted people implicitly!

I also realise it's not good as a society to be so closed and distrusting. I'd say I was reasonably altruistic in life though myself. That's in part upbringing and working in customer service- you end up trying to be 'helpful' to everyone. Partly because I struggle with my conscience if I don't abide by what I've been taught. Partly because I'm reasonably empathetic and I don't like to see people struggle. So, I may sound like a complete bitch but, hopefully I'm not in practice!

But- fair enough. You win. It was a very simplistic and unfair thing to say. To be honest, I haven't left the house in months! It could actually be like Fred Rogers 'It's a beautiful day in the neighbourhood' out there and I wouldn't even know. (Not that I've seen it but I'm imagining it portrays a perfect society.)

 

[EvisceratedJester]

I'm not saying it's a bad thing at all. I think it's a wonderful thing in fact. I wish more people were like it. I'm more looking at it in terms of analysing it- because I find it fascinating.

So- the guy with the lift. Obviously- an absolutely incredible act of heroism, bravery, selflessness. Maybe he didn't have time to think of it in the moment but, there is also the matter of- could he just stand by and watch someone die? Could he live with himself after that? In that moment, did he absolutely know he was going to die in order to save her? Did he do it more because he simply couldn't bare to see it happen?

The same with you and the man in the wheelchair. Obviously- that's to be applauded. You couldn't stand to watch him struggle and no one else help. Maybe you couldn't live with yourself ignoring him because you've been taught to help people? I was taught to put others first. The guilt starts swelling up in me if I'm in a situation where I wonder if I should help but, don't. Say- offering your seat to someone on a bus. Some people actually get offended that you think they look that old! Sometimes it has backfired on me.

I wonder though- did a part of you like the fact you were showing the other adults up that had ignored the man? Not saying you did it for that reason. Not saying you shouldn't have done it- obviously. I just think it's interesting to analyse why we do things and why others don't for instance.

But sure, I do have a cynical view of people I suppose. Maybe because friends and family have let me down and, I've done the same to them on occasion. It's a defensive mechanism I suppose to try not to rely on others. But sure, it isn't a healthy way to live. I doubt I'd be on this forum if I lived healthily, had balanced and loving relationships and trusted people implicitly!

I also realise it's not good as a society to be so closed and distrusting. I'd say I was reasonably altruistic in life though myself. That's in part upbringing and working in customer service- you end up trying to be 'helpful' to everyone. Partly because I struggle with my conscience if I don't abide by what I've been taught. Partly because I'm reasonably empathetic and I don't like to see people struggle. So, I may sound like a complete bitch but, hopefully I'm not in practice!

But- fair enough. You win. It was a very simplistic and unfair thing to say. To be honest, I haven't left the house in months! It could actually be like Fred Rogers 'It's a beautiful day in the neighbourhood' out there and I wouldn't even know. (Not that I've seen it but I'm imagining it portrays a perfect society.)

With the wheelchair guy, no. I could easily live with ignoring him. I don't tend to feel guilty about shit like that. You are making a lot of stupid assumptions about me and it's honestly getting on my nerves.

 

[Forever Sleep]

With the wheelchair guy, no. I could easily live with ignoring him. I don't tend to feel guilty about shit like that. You are making a lot of stupid assumptions about me and it's honestly getting on my nerves.

Fair enough. Probably better we both put each other on 'ignore' so we don't trigger one another. All the best.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Fair enough. Probably better we both put each other on 'ignore' so we don't trigger one another. All the best.

You don't need to put me on ignore. It's not that big of a deal.

 

[CTB Dream]

@EvisceratedJester @Forever Sleep this talk ok no need fiht all lang prblm no prsn

 

[untothedepths]

too bad im autistic, ugly, and probably got BPD losing control of myself more and more, cant say i have bpd cause thats wrong because i cant go to the doctor at all cause i have no money even if i was seeing and hearing things ppl would say i dont have sczhiophrenia which i may still get later cause fami ily has it cause i didnt go to the doctor. only one cure for a fuck up, trash, shitpile like me is a rope or bullet.

 

[DefinitelyReady]

You don't need to put me on ignore. It's not that big of a deal.

It certainly looks like kind of a big deal to me (or could've become one) given the microaggressions in your overreaction. Before, you kind of took her [original] words very literally and ran with them when it was just an added perspective. (I'll add that I remember being more optimistic about people when I was much younger.) If anything I think you oversimplified her vision(s). She just seemed to be providing more context and nuance to the OP for the sake of balance.

But what's weird to me: it appears you don't like to seem phased when it comes to a difference of opinion, yet your words prove just the opposite. It's like you catch yourself getting carried away (because it would be bad for your image I'm guessing) and then decide to downplay your take and involvement in the matter; instead of you truly deciding the conversation just was no longer worth pursuing. Because if she had continued further, instead of literally letting you win (as she already did), you would have undoubtedly continued to debate her so-called oversimplified view. That just seems to be a pattern of yours I've noticed even though I have you on 'ignore'. (Ironically so I don't end up in things I find unhelpful such as this.)
I really think it'd serve you to have a humility check every now and again. Could take a cue from @Forever Sleep May find yourself to be less easily triggered.
Jmo, and not willing to participate any further. ✌

 

[EvisceratedJester]

It certainly looks like kind of a big deal to me (or could've become one) given the microaggressions in your overreaction. Before, you kind of took her [original] words very literally and ran with them when it was just an added perspective. (I'll add that I remember being more optimistic about people when I was much younger.) If anything I think you oversimplified her vision(s). She just seemed to be providing more context and nuance to the OP for the sake of balance.

But what's weird to me: it appears you don't like to seem phased when it comes to a difference of opinion, yet your words prove just the opposite. It's like you catch yourself getting carried away (because it would be bad for your image I'm guessing) and then decide to downplay your take and involvement in the matter; instead of you truly deciding the conversation just was no longer worth pursuing. Because if she had continued further, instead of literally letting you win (as she already did), you would have undoubtedly continued to debate her so-called oversimplified view. That just seems to be a pattern of yours I've noticed even though I have you on 'ignore'. (Ironically so I don't end up in things I find unhelpful such as this.)
I really think it'd serve you to have a humility check every now and again. Could take a cue from @Forever Sleep May find yourself to be less easily triggered.
Jmo, and not willing to participate any further. ✌

I feel like it's incredibly hypocritical for you to say shit about me when you've literally gotten trigger over me making a small joke under one of your threads. Lecturing at me about "microaggressions" when you can't even handle a small joke without overreacting and then getting into an argument with a mod ober nothing is pretty dumb. If you are going to pretend to be some wise old lady then maybe act the part too. Otherwise, I don't want you, of all people, to comment on my behaviour. You seem to like talking down to people when it's convenient to you.

They made a bunch of assumptions about me in their post in an attempt to prove their point and a lot of them are not very nice. While my reaction was a bit overboard having someone say shit like

I wonder though- did a part of you like the fact you were showing the other adults up that had ignored the man?

Isn't going to create the most positive reactions from someone.

 

[DefinitelyReady]

I feel like it's incredibly hypocritical for you to say shit about me when you've literally gotten trigger over me making a small joke under one of your threads. Lecturing at me about "microaggressions" when you can't even handle a small joke without overreacting and then getting into an argument with a mod ober nothing is pretty dumb. If you are going to pretend to be some wise old lady then maybe act the part too. Otherwise, I don't want you, of all people, to comment on my behaviour. You seem to like talking down to people when it's convenient to you.

They made a bunch of assumptions about me in their post in an attempt to prove their point and a lot of them are not very nice. While my reaction was a bit overboard having someone say shit like

Isn't going to create the most positive reactions from someone.

Oh Lord... You're bringing that up lol? I would've thought you would've tried for a different example lol but... Ok. (Gee. For nothing ever being a "big deal" you sure have everyone's posts and threads memorized down to a T... Kind of obsessed it seems.) So I misconstrued your intent of the "joke". That's an easy mistake and I rectified it. Once I became aware that it wasn't blatant rudeness I even reported my own comment to be deleted. As far as the mod, you perceive that argument to be "pretty dumb" because you lack all of the information... Even if after you became aware of the facts and you still thought it to be "pretty dumb", like sorry, I still wouldn't give a shit. (Wasn't aware that I was supposed to.) I, unlike you, do not think you are always correct to the point of being obnoxious. It's thoroughly predictable. Getting the last word in also doesn't make your points more valid, and I think it's pathological that you feel the need to do so. So you can go on and continue to patronize me with cute condescending shit, but Forever Sleep doesn't deserve that. She's like the nicest mo on here bro... She also literally said (directly after what you quoted of hers) that:

"Not saying you did it for that reason. Not saying you shouldn't have done it- obviously. I just think it's interesting to analyse why we do things and why others don't for instance."

So, that's a cheap (and failed) shot at taking her words out of context and trying to paint her in a negative light, which unirionically is it's own form of hypocrisy. She pondered that questioning of your reasoning regarding the wheel chair man so innocuously and innocently, I don't even know how you would mistake that for being mean-spirited and respond with accusing her of presumption and, of all things, being annoying??? (i.e. her getting on your nerves) I'm sorry, I find that inanely comical as I find you to be so very annoying due to your everknowing mansplaining attitude and the fact that you're just insufferable with it. (It's unfortunate really because I used to like your posts in the beginning.) However now I can tell [you] what you're going to say before you respond. (Ugh, damn it thiz was supposed to be short... I hate when I allow myself into this catty middle school shit.) You're thoroughly predictable in that way, and I'm taken aback when I come across something self-deprecating of yours. So you being worked up over, what I perceived as literally nothing, doesn't work in your favor when you want to call me a hypocrite for reacting because you asked if I was high when I wrote my thread... I think it is (Is it de facto?) actually hypocritical on your part, if anything. Not to say I haven't overreacted or said dumb shit myself. I'm not above that, I apologize when I find myself to be wrong. (My wise old ass at least has learned that much, have you? Rhetorical.) However every post of yours comes across as depicting your infallibility to being wrong. That's why I inserted the humility and age remarks. (At least Forever Sleep always has the decency to imply that her opinion isn't justly superior and it's open to critique.) I don't know if that weird overconfidence is your insecurity projected as arrogance as a defense or if you actually believe your own hype, but, good luck to you either way.

Basically... I just called out an injustice as I saw fit. When I'm "hotheaded", it's usually because the other guy was rude (to me or another) first, or I at least perceived them to be. That's generally my pattern. Do I always get it right? Fuck no. I WISH I was a wise old lady... but I am right on this one. It's just simple respect. Good job on getting a reply out of me, as I can't even respond to my inbox on here like I'd like to... Hope you have a better, or at least more clear, impression of me, but if not, I'm done making that my problem. ("Hypocrite" for me is triggering as I really don't like that lol. I avoid it as best I can.)

Just wanted to point out @Forever Sleep went well out of her way to make you feel comforable with her responses and even liking your responses! Obviously she was more than trying to assuage whatever negative (butthurt, I think the kids say) feeling of yours that she affected to clearly avoid any conflict! Something you or I wouldn't really ever do because we're prideful bitches.
But that's typical of her, as her pattern is always considerate and thoughtful as well as overtly (cough* overly) nice... Her posts aren't ego-driven and I think that's admirable and fucking awesome. She's the real wise older lady. ✌