Story Thoughts for next time (about the death of SpentStardust)

[Jonels]

I want to tell a little story and then make a non-judgmental appeal at the end.

My online persona is Tantacrul. I have a reasonably large YouTube following and I also run an open source music program called MuseScore. On Friday evening, a colleague of mine alerted me to a user called System64, who had posted some music on his YouTube channel (using the application that my team develops), which was intended to be his 'last piece'. Along with this was a video he posted where he informed us that he was intending on ending his life.

You people know this user as SpentStardust.

The moment we read this, we started searching around to figure out who this kid was and whether we had any information about him. Long story short, we found his final post here, which gave us a few more clues - and a few hours later, we discovered that we were too late. He had already taken his own life in an incredibly shocking and violent way (via train).

After this, I began searching to see whether there had been any direct interactions between myself and System 64 / SpentStardust, because his nickname rang a bell. Sure enough, he had commented a lot on posts of mine on Twitter, and had also been a member of my Discord server. I then realised that I had actually spoken to him directly one time, when he played his compositions during a listening session on my server, which we do every two weeks. My impression of him? Lovely. Sweet. Super clued-in to technology and composition. A very smart 17 year old kid who seemed really grateful whenever anyone complemented him. I also searched through his comment history in forums where I have also been present. My findings? He has never once said anything pessimistic, indicative of depression or even vaguely negative. He just seemed chirpy, generally excitable and a little bit quiet.

Obviously, if there's one audience on the planet where I don't feel I need to go into detail about the difference between outward public behaviour and internal thought processes, it's this one. So I'll spare you that info.

However:

There is one thing that really does bother me. In a previous conversation on this forum a month or two ago, System 64 / SpentStardust began posting about his intentions to kill himself. Along they way, he let one thing slip that no one seemed to pick up on.

He said that he had never told anyone about his intentions to commit suicide and was afraid that if he did, that person might try to stop him. Since I come from a family with plenty of mental health specialists and psychologists, this is the the reddest of red flags.

A 17 year old kid, who has never discussed suicide with anyone decides he is going to kill himself. The only people he tells are on this forum. And the advice he is given is.... nothing. It is assumed that because he has had the idea to kill himself, it is definitely legitimate. The echo chamber has reflected their own feelings back to him. No one has thought to say 'perhaps speak to a suicide hotline anonymously - that way they are unable to stop you'. No one considers whether he is having a psychological breakdown due to stress, or loss or any other reason. Everyone assumes it he is of sound mind.

When I read this discussion, what I saw was a single moment in time where System 64 / SpentStardust - who was a very talented kid - a kid with a computer science scholarship, a player and a composer, who had a wide network of friends online who he played games with and created videos with - finally making his inner thoughts known to a group of people - letting them know that he had not sought out any advice from anyone who might have given him another perspective - and that group of people said 'yeah, do it'.

I think you can probably figure out my appeal. It's not harsh. It's about as simple as it could be:

Because I've read many times on this forum over the last few days that this is not a 'pro death' site, I think there should be a protocol for determining a few things when new people announce they want to kill themselves:

1. Is the person under age?
2. Has the person ever taken steps to try and receive treatment?
3. Had the person ever spoken to a professional?

Asking these questions, and providing basic advice to the effect of "you should really consider this carefully. At least speak to someone anonymously" could have made all the difference.

As much as I imagine people on this forum will hate me saying this - it is actually possible for some people to overcome suicidal ideation and lead a relatively peaceful life. I'm not saying you will. But, statistically speaking, some other people on this forum definitely will.

There is no good reason on an anonymous forum why a few basic questions can't be asked to determine whether someone is a full grown adult and to find out whether this person has exhausted their options or not. A kid may not be aware of what their options are.

To put it simply: just because you are certain that you want to die doesn't mean you should be certain that others should die too.

I may or may not come back here to read replies. My guess is one of you will feel this is 'off topic' and ask a mod to take it down because you don't like being challenged. Hey, maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps you can suck up constructive criticism.

Best,
Tantacrul

By the way, my mail is [email protected]

You ever want to talk. Even to tell me I'm a total fool. You are most welcome to do so and I won't give you any grief for it.

 

[OldSkater]

I agree. especially with underage people.

 

[willitpass]

There is no good reason on an anonymous forum why a few basic questions can't be asked to determine whether someone is a full grown adult and to find out whether this person has exhausted their options or not. A kid may not be aware of what their options are.

To put it simply: just because you are certain that you want to die doesn't mean you should be certain that others should die too.

it is actually against forum rules to be under 18 on here, and the question is asked when signing up that you confirm you are over 18, if he chose to lie there was nothing anyone could do to prevent that. however someone may well have coached him to seek out the possibility of therapy or other forms of help via a private message or our chat feature, and it would not have been public. and he may have been asked somewhere along the lines and the messages may have gotten buried among other messages. if someone was advising him to go ahead with his plan and kill himself that was also against forum rules as encouragement of any kind is not allowed. as someone who has been on this website many times i have seen many people (myself included) being asked if they were sure they weren't doing this on impulse and if they were sure they were ready to commit such a final act. very rarely do you meet someone on here who doesn't get upset when someone says they are ctb. we are all humans here who are struggling and who want to leave this world, but get extremely sad to see that others are in the same boat. we don't want users to kill themselves, most of us see it as a last resort that should be saved until nothing else has worked. but at the end of the day if he chose not to further disclose his reasonings and options publicly both here and in real life, then there wasn't much anyone could do. there actually is even an entire section of this website devoted to recovery that he may well have visited in an attempt to seek help, even if he never commented on any of the posts

update: i myself just went and searched through their messages and have found people advising that they seek help from a therapist

 

[not_actually_human]

Platitudes.
I see this post at 2 in the morning and I have to be feel more disgusted at the post than i felt like crying for the kid.

This place is flawed, coming on here was a reminder of the greater tragedy, but nothing that stood out as unique.
But you misrepresent yourself. You have to be insanely ignorant, or just uncaring manipulative cunt to make this post. I could never decide which one it is, probably because I don't suffer from normie-fuckhead personality disorder.

Even ignoring the million offensive bits in the content of your post, if this was simply about the kid's story and how this forum is run - it would still be incredibly tone-deaf to make it about this forum.

 

[not_actually_human]

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I want to tell a little story and then make a non-judgmental appeal at the end.

My online persona is Tantacrul. I have a reasonably large YouTube following and I also run an open source music program called MuseScore. On Friday evening, a colleague of mine alerted me to a user called System64, who had posted some music on his YouTube channel (using the application that my team develops), which was intended to be his 'last piece'. Along with this was a video he posted where he informed us that he was intending on ending his life.

You people know this user as @SpentStardust.

The moment we read this, we started searching around to figure out who this kid was and whether we had any information about him. Long story short, we found his final post here, which gave us a few more clues - and a few hours later, we discovered that we were too late. He had already taken his own life in an incredibly shocking and violent way (via train).

After this, I began searching to see whether there had been any direct interactions between myself and System 64 / @SpentStardust, because his nickname rang a bell. Sure enough, he had commented a lot on posts of mine on Twitter, and had also been a member of my Discord server. I then realised that I had actually spoken to him directly one time, when he played his compositions during a listening session on my server, which we do every two weeks. My impression of him? Lovely. Sweet. Super clued-in to technology and composition. A very smart 17 year old kid who seemed really grateful whenever anyone complemented him. I also searched through his comment history in forums where I have also been present. My findings? He has never once said anything pessimistic, indicative of depression or even vaguely negative. He just seemed chirpy, generally excitable and a little bit quiet.

Obviously, if there's one audience on the planet where I don't feel I need to go into detail about the difference between outward public behaviour and internal thought processes, it's this one. So I'll spare you that info.

However:

There is one thing that really does bother me. In a previous conversation on this forum a month or two ago, System 64 / @SpentStardust began posting about his intentions to kill himself. Along they way, he let one thing slip that no one seemed to pick up on.

He said that he had never told anyone about his intentions to commit suicide and was afraid that if he did, that person might try to stop him. Since I come from a family with plenty of mental health specialists and psychologists, this is the the reddest of red flags.

A 17 year old kid, who has never discussed suicide with anyone decides he is going to kill himself. The only people he tells are on this forum. And the advice he is given is.... nothing. It is assumed that because he has had the idea to kill himself, it is definitely legitimate. The echo chamber has reflected their own feelings back to him. No one has thought to say 'perhaps speak to a suicide hotline anonymously - that way they are unable to stop you'. No one considers whether he is having a psychological breakdown due to stress, or loss or any other reason. Everyone assumes it he is of sound mind.

When I read this discussion, what I saw was a single moment in time where System 64 / @SpentStardust - who was a very talented kid - a kid with a computer science scholarship, a player and a composer, who had a wide network of friends online who he played games with and created videos with - finally making his inner thoughts known to a group of people - letting them know that he had not sought out any advice from anyone who might have given him another perspective - and that group of people said 'yeah, do it'.

I think you can probably figure out my appeal. It's not harsh. It's about as simple as it could be:

Because I've read many times on this forum over the last few days that this is not a 'pro death' site, I think there should be a protocol for determining a few things when new people announce they want to kill themselves:

1. Is the person under age?
2. Has the person ever taken steps to try and receive treatment?
3. Had the person ever spoken to a professional?

Asking these questions, and providing basic advice to the effect of "you should really consider this carefully. At least speak to someone anonymously" could have made all the difference.

As much as I imagine people on this forum will hate me saying this - it is actually possible for some people to overcome suicidal ideation and lead a relatively peaceful life. I'm not saying you will. But, statistically speaking, some other people on this forum definitely will.

There is no good reason on an anonymous forum why a few basic questions can't be asked to determine whether someone is a full grown adult and to find out whether this person has exhausted their options or not. A kid may not be aware of what their options are.

To put it simply: just because you are certain that you want to die doesn't mean you should be certain that others should die too.

I may or may not come back here to read replies. My guess is one of you will feel this is 'off topic' and ask a mod to take it down because you don't like being challenged. Hey, maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps you can suck up constructive criticism.

Best,
Tantacrul

By the way, my mail is [email protected]

You ever want to talk. Even to tell me I'm a total fool. You are most welcome to do so and I won't give you any grief for it.

 

[almaranthine]

Using the search I was able to find 4 threads:
Train Decapitation Questions
I think I'll do it soon
I'm a bit scared
I'm doing it

I'm not sure where @willitpass found a comment urging SpentStardust to seek therapy. I couldn't find a comment like that in the threads listed above. If you see this comment please link it.

Nevertheless, there was no way for us to know this user was underage. I understand you are upset by this news. It is objectively sad to hear of a young, talented person taking their own life. However, you cannot blame the people commenting on SpentStardust's posts for not inquiring if they were under 18. Every new user agrees that they are not underage when signing up. You would know this, as you have made an account yourself.

You urge forum users to ask if new users are underage anyways. This would not make a difference. If a user lies when they create their account, they will lie again to another user. Additionally, I imagine people who are not underage would be upset if they just made a new account, verified their age, only to be instantly questioned on the site.

You wonder why commenters didn't recommend SpentStardust call a suicide hotline... I imagine you have never been in the position to call such a number. Someone who is so determined to end their lives that they are willing to be decimated by a train... is not going to be phased by the rehearsed platitudes that a hotline operator is going to give. Also, there is no such thing as calling anonymously. Your location can and will be given to law enforcement if the operator believes the caller is in imminent danger.

Reading back on the 4 threads listed above, I will agree with you that it is disheartening that no one inquired if SpentStardust had tried to get help and/or was willing to reconsider his plans. Usually, you do see this type of interaction on the forum on these types of threads. You have no way to know if someone private messaged the user inquiring such though.

I don't agree with you that anyone encouraged SpentStardust to kill himself. You are equating well wishes, such phrases as "I hope you find peace," with encouragement. Users commented on the train "method" and tried to advise for/against it and warn him of the dangers associated with this type of suicide. That is simply just sharing information, not encouragement either. No one on ANY of those threads told this user, "yes, you should definitely kill yourself and you are making the right choice."
"Sorry for your suffering"
"I'm sorry it has come to this"
"You have more courage than me"
None of these types of comments are pro-death. However, I can see how as an outsider, you are reading these threads, horrified that no one said,
"Oh god don't do it. Please don't do it! You can get help. Things can get better for you!"

You didn't see a comment like that because, quite frankly, this is not the place for it. This forum is pro-choice. We don't sit here delighting in the death of others. We find it sad and heartbreaking just as you do. However, this community collectively respects a person's choice to end it. The type of questioning that you are encouraging users to ask is completely against that main principle. Regardless, I would like to point out the RECOVERY sub forum which exists to give users hope, support, and advice to continuing living despite their struggles and suffering. That community is always there. Everyone has a choice.

 

[affinity]

update: i myself just went and searched through their messages and have found people advising that they seek help from a therapist

Respectfully (and unless I missed a comment), there was only one account who specifically mentioned speaking to a therapist and this is what they said to that young man:

If there's even a tiny bit of you that wants to seek help, seek it. Don't make a permanent decision like this if you're not entirely sure. There's people you can talk to and things you can say that won't automatically hospitalise you. I mean fuck, I'm UK based so it might be different, you could tell any professional you see that you're gonna off yourself and you'll be lucky if you get anything more than a brief conversation let alone hospitalisation.

Does that really sound like they're providing sound advice by on the one hand fostering fear RE hospitalization and on the other, basically telling them it would be a fools errand bc they'll be lucky to get more than a "brief convo"? It also offers an out…"if there's a tiny bit of you that wants help".

I appreciate the logistics involved in ensuring members are of age are not feasible and would require members to essentially give up their privacy. I've often wondered whether a secure 3rd party site could verify the age of the person seeking to make an account on sites that are clearly intended for adults. But that would likely pose issues as well…

Regardless, and this is only based on personal experience, it's often obvious that the person behind the account is a young person and when they are engaged, they often confirm themselves that they're quite young and the struggles they're having are often (imho) transient and quite fixable if they reached out to people in the "real world".

I'm just heartbroken reading though the responses to this young persons comments. Instead of trying to dissuade him or actually engage with him RE what the issues are, I see debates on the merits of decapitation by train versus beheading, encouraging him to consider other methods or stating how brave he is and agreeing that this method is a-okay because he didn't have any other methods available to him.

I'm still here because I've been fighting to stick around, despite sensing that my time will be up as soon…but I'm about to be 41 and my circumstances are not remotely as fixable (and yes, plenty of people in the real world disagree and make me feel even worse when I tell them about what's troubling me, but that's for another time).

I guess it all comes down to this: it will never sit right with me that young people, including minors and even those in their 20s who don't have debilitating medical conditions come to this site and don't receive the support they "need" as opposed to the support they "want".

I am very well aware of the common retorts to this, but as someone who has been on this site for over a year now, I just wanted to offer my experience. That doesn't mean I think this site should be shut down or offers zero utility. I know there have been plenty of bad actors here, but I also appreciate that there is a caring group of people here who want to look out for others and to avoid a situation like this, perhaps we offer this helping hand to all accounts if we don't know the facts.

 

[Jonels]

Saying 'the forum is only for 18 year olds', don't blame us is a pretty pathetic excuse. But more than that - even if he was 19, my point still stands. Everyone on this forum should always consider that they are speaking to a potentially underage person and should not use a paper thin, unenforced forum policy as justification for doing nothing.

Moreover, saying 'we didn't actively encourage him' isn't the point either. No one actively sought to delve into his problem and no one gave a moments thought to his very clear statement that he had never spoken to anyone about suicide. Saying 'there's a document somewhere he should have read' is as pathetic as a telephone call centre saying 'that's just company policy'.

What an amazingly pathetic excuse with amazingly appalling consequences.

Please do not forward me documents and policies to try and explain this. Actually engage with my point that perhaps there could be better protocols on this site.

I mean... you did just let a minor die.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'd like to thank you for posting this. It is obvious that you care deeply and I agree- the suicide of a 17 year old by train is terribly upsetting.

I would have to agree with @willitpass though- that the age required to join this site is 18. There is a form you complete in order to join (as you must have done) in order to try and protect children.

I only searched briefly I have to say but I can't find in any post by him that he identifies his age as 17. Also, I'm sorry to say but there will be MANY people here who haven't told their families and friends about their suicidal ideation. I have been suicidal since 10. I am now 42 and my family don't know. I don't think they would understand, I don't want to worry or upset them or make them feel guilty. Plus, in all honesty- I don't want them to try and stop me if I ever decide to do it.

I would hate to think anyone here would say 'yeah do it'. I've honestly come across more shit like that on regular social media platforms than here. You're always going to get some exceptions but on the whole, people here are VERY compassionate. I do conceed that we do talk about methods and in the posts I have been able to search on @SpentStardust ,he seemed mainly to focus on methods (to which a lot of people advised against the train method.) He comes across as a very intelligent person who (I'm sorry to say) may well have already worked out his plan before joining this site.

He didn't actually go much into why he was here- unless I missed that post in my search (I'm not sure I interacted with him to be honest.) Do you happen to know why he wanted to take his own life? As you say- he seemed to have a wide network of friends, a scholarship and a great talent.

I appreciate this may not be that easy to accept or understand but many people feel like they have finally found a 'safe space' when they come here. I appreciate that likely sounds very ironic and even perverse to someone who has never considered suicide. In the 'real world' I think a lot of people feel like their problems are not taken seriously and if they reveal just how bad things are, they fear being involuntary committed. As you quoted:

'He said that he had never told anyone about his intentions to commit suicide and was afraid that if he did, that person might try to stop him.'

I'm not actually sure you CAN ring these helplines annonymously. Someone posted recentley that, although they didn't give their details, their location was sent to the police and they turned up at the person's family home. Same goes for therapists- I imagine they will commit you involuntarily if you hint at taking your own life. I understand that to you, this would seem the more preferable option but many people here have had terrible experiences on psyche wards. I hope that you can sort of see that for many people here, recommending seeking help means an intervention rather than a more gentle form of support and for an adult, (which we would assume he was) some people will literally do anything to avoid that.

I also appreciate this might be hard to understand but a lot of people here hate having to justify why we are here and why we want to take our own lives. Once again, it can feel like your own feelings and capacity to make decisions about your own life are being called into question by complete strangers. We also tend to assume that it is adults we are talking with because they have been admitted onto the platform.

I hope that if you do choose to take a look at some threads that- if a person shows any doubt about doing it, the vast majority of people will hope they find a way to keep going- even suggesting constructive things. People tend to respond according to the tone of the thread. I'd also like you to observe what happens when people who clearly want and intend to take their lives receive advice to 'help' them. It's sometimes quite aggresively met because honestly- a lot of people here have already undertaken years of therapy and drugs and it hasn't worked and they're sick of hearing 'things will get better.'

Sadly, we don't know who we're talking to or their situation unless they choose to share it and it can feel rather intrusive and judgemental to question a new member all about their life and situation if they haven't already introduced themselves.

I'm sorry for the long post. I suppose I just wanted to try and explain things from this angle. I don't know how well I succeeded. I expect a lot will still seem morally wrong to you and I do understand that but it's honestly a very different perspective and experience of the world when you feel like this. I wish you well and thank you again for obviously caring so much about @SpentStardust . I'm sorry that their life lead them to this place.

 

[almaranthine]

Respectfully (and unless I missed a comment), there was only one account who specifically mentioned speaking to a therapist and this is what they said to that young man:



Does that really sound like they're providing sound advice by on the one hand fostering fear RE hospitalization and on the other, basically telling them it would be a fools errand bc they'll be lucky to get more than a "brief convo"? It also offers an out…"if there's a tiny bit of you that wants help".

I appreciate the logistics involved in ensuring members are of age are not feasible and would require members to essentially give up their privacy. I've often wondered whether a secure 3rd party site could verify the age of the person seeking to make an account on sites that are clearly intended for adults. But that would likely pose issues as well…

Regardless, and this is only based on personal experience, it's often obvious that the person behind the account is a young person and when they are engaged, they often confirm themselves that they're quite young and the struggles they're having are often (imho) transient and quite fixable if they reached out to people in the "real world".

I'm just heartbroken reading though the responses to this young persons comments. Instead of trying to dissuade him or actually engage with him RE what the issues are, I see debates on the merits of decapitation by train versus beheading, encouraging him to consider other methods or stating how brave he is and agreeing that this method is a-okay because he didn't have any other methods available to him.

I'm still here because I've been fighting to stick around, despite sensing that my time will be up as soon…but I'm about to be 41 and my circumstances are not remotely as fixable (and yes, plenty of people in the real world disagree and make me feel even worse when I tell them about what's troubling me, but that's for another time).

I guess it all comes down to this: it will never sit right with me that young people, including minors and even those in their 20s who don't have debilitating medical conditions come to this site and don't receive the support they "need" as opposed to the support they "want".

I am very well aware of the common retorts to this, but as someone who has been on this site for over a year now, I just wanted to offer my experience. That doesn't mean I think this site should be shut down or offers zero utility. I know there have been plenty of bad actors here, but I also appreciate that there is a caring group of people here who want to look out for others and to avoid a situation like this, perhaps we offer this helping hand to all accounts if we don't know the facts.

Thanks for finding that comment. I agree that it's sad to read the comments on those threads. However, if users were aware of how young SpentStardust was I highly doubt those posts would have received the same response. We can't deny that our reactions are biased now that we know he was only 17.

 

[Jonels]

I imagine you have never been in the position to call such a number. Someone who is so determined to end their lives that they are willing to be decimated by a train... is not going to be phased by the rehearsed platitudes that a hotline operator is going to give.

I do imagine what it might be like to want to be decimated by a train - and then I pick up any baseline literature on mental health and I speak to people who know a lot more about this than me - and I think 'perhaps this person wasn't thinking straight'. 'Oh, you know what, I should probably enquire a bit more about this person and not just assume they're of sound mind'.

Your argument seems to rest of the fallacy that 'if someone is thinking something right now, then that it the most valid thing they can ever think'. So using your logic, what if this same person today was thinking 'Gee, I'm glad I didn't jump in front of that train'. Would that be legit too?

Also, lets just tally up the harm here:

Me: zero minors killed themselves
SS: At least one minor killed themselves

Go on, tell me again how nothing could be done.

 

[willitpass]

Respectfully (and unless I missed a comment), there was only one account who specifically mentioned speaking to a therapist and this is what they said to that young man:



Does that really sound like they're providing sound advice by on the one hand fostering fear RE hospitalization and on the other, basically telling them it would be a fools errand bc they'll be lucky to get more than a "brief convo"? It also offers an out…"if there's a tiny bit of you that wants help".

I appreciate the logistics involved in ensuring members are of age are not feasible and would require members to essentially give up their privacy. I've often wondered whether a secure 3rd party site could verify the age of the person seeking to make an account on sites that are clearly intended for adults. But that would likely pose issues as well…

Regardless, and this is only based on personal experience, it's often obvious that the person behind the account is a young person and when they are engaged, they often confirm themselves that they're quite young and the struggles they're having are often (imho) transient and quite fixable if they reached out to people in the "real world".

I'm just heartbroken reading though the responses to this young persons comments. Instead of trying to dissuade him or actually engage with him RE what the issues are, I see debates on the merits of decapitation by train versus beheading, encouraging him to consider other methods or stating how brave he is and agreeing that this method is a-okay because he didn't have any other methods available to him.

I'm still here because I've been fighting to stick around, despite sensing that my time will be up as soon…but I'm about to be 41 and my circumstances are not remotely as fixable (and yes, plenty of people in the real world disagree and make me feel even worse when I tell them about what's troubling me, but that's for another time).

I guess it all comes down to this: it will never sit right with me that young people, including minors and even those in their 20s who don't have debilitating medical conditions come to this site and don't receive the support they "need" as opposed to the support they "want".

I am very well aware of the common retorts to this, but as someone who has been on this site for over a year now, I just wanted to offer my experience. That doesn't mean I think this site should be shut down or offers zero utility. I know there have been plenty of bad actors here, but I also appreciate that there is a caring group of people here who want to look out for others and to avoid a situation like this, perhaps we offer this helping hand to all accounts if we don't know the facts.

i can appreciate that this specific user did not appear to publicly be offered any sort of help in their situation. it is a sticky situation to be in but unfortunately the nature of this site means not everyone is going to get extended the same amount of help, especially with how few posts they made during their time here. it becomes harder to offer help when they don't make any sort of remarks asking for it, because we also try to respect everyone's autonomy by not bombarding everyone with questions of what they have and have not tried since many of us come here to escape such things.

 

[Jonels]

I would have to agree with @willitpass though- that the age required to join this site is 18. There is a form you complete in order to join (as you must have done) in order to try and protect children.

This is the most pathetic and frankly embarrassing cop out I think I've ever heard in my life.
OK, for the sake of moving on, please lets assume he was 19. Every single thing I said still stands.

 

[Rounded Apathy]

just because you are certain that you want to die doesn't mean you should be certain that others should die too.

Sadly there is a small subset of members here who are fervently pro-death and regularly go about spouting on nonsense of how life inherently is nothing but misery, how merciful an act it would be to eradicate all human life or all life in general, etc. It took even me quite some time to realise that this forum's userbase is about as diverse as you'd find anywhere else on the web, keeping in mind that anyone unfortunate enough to find themselves here has done so because of whatever of innumerable possible combinations of traumas, tragedies, or whatever else has led them to a suicidal state of mind. More often than not they have been failed or outright wronged by conventional structures and institutions purported to be helpful.

This is not a place which makes itself out to be a destination to get help in continuing to survive. The people here have been pushed to the edge and many have become so consumed by the idea of death that they cannot operate (especially while on the forum) in any other manner. In my and many others' opinions, choosing death should be an absolute last resort when all agreeable present alternatives have been exhausted - it is times when this is not the case that are tragic, and unfortunately this seems one such time. But the masses here mostly screaming into the void (assuming they are following site rules and not explicitly encouraging suicide) can't be held accountable.

 

[Jonels]

it can feel like your own feelings and capacity to make decisions about your own life are being called into question by complete strangers.

To be a bit harsh, I think that's a price worth paying. I think it's more important to ensure as few people as possible kill themselves even if it means other people will sometimes have to feel a bit bad because they'd they're being asked to talk to someone and they'd rather not.

Balance of harm falls pretty strongly in favour of protection, IMO.

 

[ge0rge]

@Jonels , the music he made is beautiful. I'm honestly very sorry he's gone -- I've been listening to his music for a few hours now, and it just pains me to think that someone who was that creative and felt music the way he did no longer exists, all because of prolonged and ignored misery. this is a loss that has to be mourned in earnest.

 

[Jonels]

Sadly there is a small subset of members here who are fervently pro-death and regularly go about spouting on nonsense of how life inherently is nothing but misery, how merciful an act it would be to eradicate all human life or all life in general, etc. It took even me quite some time to realise that this forum's userbase is about as diverse as you'd find anywhere else on the web,

Thank you. This is what I'm seeing too. There are nice folk but there is also a deeply flawed aspect to this forum too and I think the people who are encouraging that flaw don't realise the flabbergasting damage they can potentially be doing.

@Jonels , the music he made is beautiful. I'm honestly very sorry he's gone -- I've been listening to his music for a few hours now, and it just pains me to think that someone who was that creative and felt music the way he did no longer exists, all because of prolonged and ignored misery. this is a loss that has to be mourned in earnest.

He was also just absolutely lovely. This is what kills me. Half of the times I'd post something, he'd just respond with this chirpy, enthusiasm. Someone who knew him personally referred to him as 'a lovely lovely boy'. Just too sad.

I expect a lot will still seem morally wrong to you and I do understand that but it's honestly a very different perspective and experience of the world when you feel like this.

I am not really a believer in morality but I am a believer in doing work and not being lazy.
For me, this kid could have been saved is fewer people had been lazy. I'm talking about laziness of the mind.

 

[Donk]

To be a bit harsh, I think that's a price worth paying. I think it's more important to ensure as few people as possible kill themselves even if it means other people will sometimes have to feel a bit bad because they'd they're being asked to talk to someone and they'd rather not.

Balance of harm falls pretty strongly in favour of protection, IMO.

@Jonels I can tell your thoughts and words are coming from a good place. However let me ask you to imagine someone who has exhausted all their options or tried every treatment available. Those who are treatment resistant and live with severe depression and anhedonia, some days cant even get out of bed. its a state of existing not living and its torture. Would you rather keep this person "alive" even though they are in a constant state of pain and suffering? Who are we really concern with at that point?

 

[willitpass]

Thank you. This is what I'm seeing too. There are nice folk but there is also a deeply flawed aspect to this forum too and I think the people who are encouraging that flaw don't realise the flabbergasting damage they can potentially be doing.

many of us realize the flaws with this place. i purposefully avoid giving anything that could be seen as method information and avoid goodbye threads both because they pain me and i don't want to slip up and come off as encouraging when i simply mean to offer empathy. however at the end of the day, the vast majority of the users, especially on the suicide section, plan to leave this world soon. we are not planning to be here for much longer and most of the threads are venting because to say it anywhere else would get us into trouble. i don't deny this site is deeply flawed, but to try and "do away" with those flaws would just lead people to find a new place on the internet to discuss this. suicide forums have actually been around since the dawn of the internet. the original one was alt.suicide.holiday. with every suicide forum that gets deleted, a new one forms. broken, lonely, individuals will always find somewhere to congregate to feel understood. we have no one else

@Jonels I can tell your thoughts and words are coming from a good place. However let me ask you to imagine someone who has exhausted all their options or tried every treatment available. Those who are treatment resistant and live with severe depression and anhedonia, some days cant even get out of bed. it's a state of existing not living and its torture. Would you rather keep this person "alive" even though they are in a constant state of pain and suffering? Who are we really concern with at that point?

this is exactly what lead me here. i've tried every option available to me and i am tired. to not have this place would not make me feel "a bit bad" about not wanting to talk to a therapist, i have some 10 years of extensive and exhausting therapy and medication and psych ward stays. this is the only place i can talk anymore. without this i would be long gone

I am not really a believer in morality but I am a believer in doing work and not being lazy.
For me, this kid could have been saved is fewer people had been lazy. I'm talking about laziness of the mind.

do you ask every single person you come by on the internet how they are truly doing? every person that comes through you instagram feed do you leave a comment saying "be honest, how are you doing?". every single one of them? i understand this forum is slightly different but to ask every single person who comes on here what treatment they have tried simply isn't feasible. especially bc the vast majority of us are also on our last straw. i do not agree with the people calling him brave for jumping in front of a train or giving him plan B methods, but we cannot be blamed for this. i myself am at my wits end and so are most of us. we are not lazy, we are also suicidal. and to be honest calling us lazy is very stigmatizing considering he was one of hundreds of us on here struggling. the situation wasn't right but please don't call those of us also in crisis lazy

 

[DysphoriaKilledMe]

I do imagine what it might be like to want to be decimated by a train - and then I pick up any baseline literature on mental health and I speak to people who know a lot more about this than me - and I think 'perhaps this person wasn't thinking straight'. 'Oh, you know what, I should probably enquire a bit more about this person and not just assume they're of sound mind'.

Your argument seems to rest of the fallacy that 'if someone is thinking something right now, then that it the most valid thing they can ever think'. So using your logic, what if this same person today was thinking 'Gee, I'm glad I didn't jump in front of that train'. Would that be legit too?

Also, lets just tally up the harm here:

Me: zero minors killed themselves
SS: At least one minor killed themselves

Go on, tell me again how nothing could be done.

This site doesn't encourage suicide. They give people the option to express their feelings without being judged, unlike in other areas. This site also has a recovery section, which contradicts your demonizing of this site. If this site was really a death pit that you think it is, there would not even be a recovery section here.

I realize that the well of content feels dry now and that as a result, you're trying to keep yourself relevant by jumping on the hate train of sasu and virue signal, but it's cringe. If you really want views and clout, may I suggest picking up a copy of Pokemon scarlet/violet and shiny hunt? I heard that can generate a lot of views where you don't need to exploit people whom are suffering.

 

[Rounded Apathy]

@Jonels - what @Donk and @willitpass have said just before me should illustrate the point I hoped to make in my previous post: most of us, in one way or another, have been through the ringer, and consequently many of us both may not have the capacity to try and "help" others, and are over it, and assume others are too. After actively seeking help from those who are "supposed to" be able to help us and having been failed - what is to be expected of us now? Thus stems a tacit agreement among those here; unless asked, we don't try and force this kind of "recovery"-oriented subject matter on those who don't ask for it.

I don't know if this will help you at all, but I recently finished reading a book on suicide by someone in the field who speaks about much (though not all) that's currently wrong with several aspects of the picture. I summarized my take in this thread, and maybe the contents of this post in particular might help you understand; if not why @SpentStardust is gone, at least why no one took it upon themselves to actively try and stop him.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...lize-suicide-craig-bryan.102186/#post-1775660

 

[ge0rge]

He was also just absolutely lovely. This is what kills me. Half of the times I'd post something, he'd just respond with this chirpy, enthusiasm. Someone who knew him personally referred to him as 'a lovely lovely boy'. Just too sad.

heartbreaking. this isn't something that can be put into words. the youtube comments on his videos show that people really appreciated him and his skills, and he was kind in acknowledging them. to think he could have bloomed into something more, the next big composer, the next big writer of video game OSTs, and how all that potential and creativity and kindness were obliterated suddenly... i don't think anyone has the capacity to fully understand human loss without going insane.

 

[almaranthine]

I do imagine what it might be like to want to be decimated by a train - and then I pick up any baseline literature on mental health and I speak to people who know a lot more about this than me - and I think 'perhaps this person wasn't thinking straight'. 'Oh, you know what, I should probably enquire a bit more about this person and not just assume they're of sound mind'.

Your argument seems to rest of the fallacy that 'if someone is thinking something right now, then that it the most valid thing they can ever think'. So using your logic, what if this same person today was thinking 'Gee, I'm glad I didn't jump in front of that train'. Would that be legit too?

Also, lets just tally up the harm here:

Me: zero minors killed themselves
SS: At least one minor killed themselves

Go on, tell me again how nothing could be done.

"Train, jumping, and electrocution were my three favourite already when I was 10,"
SpentStardust wrote in one of his threads.
This person had been contemplating suicide for at least 7 years. I think it's safe to say that it wasn't an impulsive decision for them.

I understand your anger here but it's not fair to accuse users of the forum for supporting an underage person's death. Nobody knew he was 17. He didn't post his YouTube info until his final thread. Also, like I mentioned before... you don't know if any one chatted with him privately and asked these questions you wished had been posted publicly.

 

[Chinaski]

I don't represent the site as a whole and I'm not best placed to discuss its philosophies and admin policies but would like to say l am deeply saddened to read this about SpentStardust and l am very sorry for your loss. Regardless of one's position on this site it should be acknowledged that a teenager throwing themselves under a train is an unmitigated tragedy.

 

[willitpass]

I don't represent the site as a whole and I'm not best placed to discuss its philosophies and admin policies but would like to say l am deeply saddened to read this about SpentStardust and l am very sorry for your loss. Regardless of one's position on this site it should be acknowledged that a teenager throwing themselves under a train is an unmitigated tragedy.

well spoken as always. you always being very good thoughts to the table

 

[Himalayan]

I do imagine what it might be like to want to be decimated by a train - and then I pick up any baseline literature on mental health and I speak to people who know a lot more about this than me - and I think 'perhaps this person wasn't thinking straight'. 'Oh, you know what, I should probably enquire a bit more about this person and not just assume they're of sound mind'.

Your argument seems to rest of the fallacy that 'if someone is thinking something right now, then that it the most valid thing they can ever think'. So using your logic, what if this same person today was thinking 'Gee, I'm glad I didn't jump in front of that train'. Would that be legit too?

Also, lets just tally up the harm here:

Me: zero minors killed themselves
SS: At least one minor killed themselves

Go on, tell me again how nothing could be done.

Because going in a suicide forum and deciding days before the event really screams impulsive behaviour. You don't even know if this behaviour wasn't going for months already.
Now the pink elephant in the room. You say he wasn't presented any sort of help, but you, a member of SaSu, knew him. Didn't you, yourself, tried to help him?

 

[FuneralCry]

It's tiring to come on here and see pro lifers. It's not a pro life forum. It's a forum respecting people's choices about whether they choose to live or die. If someone wants to die then that is their right and their decision and this should be respected. Nobody should be forced to exist against their wishes, it's a personal decision when to leave this world, and life should be seen as a choice rather than something to be prolonged at all costs.

Why should we have any say in what others do with their lives, we are not experiencing life the same way as them. People come on here to escape from pro life attitudes that are everywhere else in this world. The reality is that in this world some people want to die, I know that this offends pro life people who could never understand and believe that everyone can be 'saved'. I don't get why you need to bring this on here. If someone dies then they are no longer suffering and are at rest. I doubt the person that you are posting about would wish to be spoke about in that way. And I believe that if someone ctb by a method as horrific as the train then they must be really desperate to die. Maybe people should learn to be respectful towards the right to die.

 

[SamTam33]

I want to tell a little story and then make a non-judgmental appeal at the end..

...There is one thing that really does bother me. In a previous conversation on this forum a month or two ago, System 64 / SpentStardust began posting about his intentions to kill himself. Along they way, he let one thing slip that no one seemed to pick up on.

He said that he had never told anyone about his intentions to commit suicide and was afraid that if he did, that person might try to stop him. Since I come from a family with plenty of mental health specialists and psychologists, this is the reddest of red flags...

A 17 year old kid, who has never discussed suicide with anyone decides he is going to kill himself. The only people he tells are on this forum. And the advice he is given is.... nothing. It is assumed that because he has had the idea to kill himself, it is definitely legitimate. The echo chamber has reflected their own feelings back to him. No one has thought to say 'perhaps speak to a suicide hotline anonymously - that way they are unable to stop you'. No one considers whether he is having a psychological breakdown due to stress, or loss or any other reason. Everyone assumes it he is of sound mind.

...As much as I imagine people on this forum will hate me saying this - it is actually possible for some people to overcome suicidal ideation and lead a relatively peaceful life. I'm not saying you will. But, statistically speaking, some other people on this forum definitely will.

I haven't gone to look up any of his posts, but I don't see how expressing fear that someone might stop your attempt as the "reddest of the red flags." Typically, that just means we don't want busybodies and wannabe hero types to interfere with the process.

The main point I wanted to address is the bolded. I'm willing to bet that MOST people already overcome suicidal tendencies (mainly because it's so difficult to achieve - a 4% success rate), but that's not enough, it seems.

Instead of focusing on all the ones who are still alive, people zero in on the relatively scant number of ones who succeeded and claim they could've been "saved" too!

As if every being on this earth has the exact same opportunities, inclinations, personality traits and mental performance.

It's beyond pollyannaish. It's so unrealistic... Like living in some imaginary candy land.

Somebody's going to be in the tiny percentage that succeeds.

SpentStardust is in the minority. So if it's truly about lives saved and not just about the fact that you knew (of) this person - then you could choose to be happy about that.


Edit: Now his account is deactivated. So typical of people with that pre-packaged 'Call a Hotline' 'Help is Available' advice from 1998.

Just like the therapists and family members we complain about: they have no interest in any real engagement.

Do not ask them to look at suicide from any perspective other than the one that says it's bad.

Don't ask them to explain why everyone needs to be saved because they couldn't explain it for a million bucks.

Generic, cookie cutter talking points that we've all heard ad nauseum. They want us to do something different while they get to say and do the same old repetitive shit.

Anyway, thanks for the story about SpentStardust. He may have been otherwise forgotten.

 

[Rounded Apathy]

Well, looks like OP is banned. Not sure what that's about.

 

[RainAndSadness]

Someone clearly suggested to that member to find help and talk to a therapist. So your entire suggestion is based on ignorance. People do reach out, people give each other support. That's a very important aspect in this forum but that doesn't always prevent suicide. Obviously. I don't know the circumstances around that member and what happened is a tragedy. But maybe you should have spent some time in this forum before coming to conclusions and engage with this community instead of lecturing suicidal people on how to interact with other suicidal people. That's part one.

Part two. Spentstardust lived in Italy. Italy blocked this website. How does that happen? Maybe we should have a conversation about censorship and how it doesn't prevent suicide. This also applies to several other countries planning to censor the internet right now under the disguise to protect people. If you think internet censorship is an adequate solution for poor parenting or deeper societal issues, you're mistaken. But that's the problem, more countries will implement laws to censor their internet, pretending it solves any issues and completely disregard the fact that the actual problem lies on other factors. Oh I have a bridge to sell you. How comes you point the finger at this community? Point the finger to the goverment of Italy and the people who had realistic chances to interfere with SpentStardust's decision to end their life?
Maybe we should talk about the fact that Italy could to more for its citizens than just banning a website because it's obviously a very lazy approach to suicide prevention. Italy seems entirely unable to prevent suicide with substantial means or even have a meaningful conversation around this subject and considering the Constitutional Court in Italy just recently blocked a referendum on Euthanasia, chocking off a very important societal topic, I think this country has a severe issue with conversations about suicide and instead of tackling that problem, they'd rather sweep it under the rug - as seen in their obviously inefficient approach to censor certain parts of the internet, this forum included. Maybe Italy needs to clean up its own backyard first before we point the finger at online communities.