Discussion This is why (genuinely) suicidal people don't get help

[TAW122]

This thread is a response to the remark "He/she should have reached out!", "He/she should have gotten help!" The irony of the situation is that suicidal people (especially those that are serious) do NOT reach out for help because:

1) They are quickly dismissed and shamed for even considering suicide. They are called selfish and are then reprimanded or even told that they are "wrong" for even considering suicide to begin with. In other words, persecuted and bullied for being suicidal and considering suicide to begin with. When the suicidal mentions about suicide, people talk to them as if they are like a 'child' or someone who doesn't understand what he/she is doing. That is incredibly disrespectful and degrading towards the suicidal.
2) They want to open up to discuss about suicide, but even then, they are unable to as most people deem suicide to be a result of mental illness, an irrational decision, and generally many misconception of it. Many people do NOT wish to listen and think about what the suicidal people have to say, but instead push and project their own agenda unto them. This generally becomes a one-sided conversation.
3) They get bombarded with lots of pro-life, guilt-trips, and other blind optimism, and even toxic positivity (always positive regards of circumstance, situation). Generally uplifting and unhelpful platitudes that do nothing to better their situation. Of course, should the suicidal decide to speak up, they are then shamed into silence and met with hostility because it hurts the feelings of the platitude pusher or the non-suicidal people.
4) They are threatened with possibly 'forced intervention' (this includes, but are not limited to: forced treatment against their will or consent, forced hospitalization against their will (involuntary commitment), treated like a prisoner, and (in the US) billed for services that they never agreed to (was coerced into, made under duress), and finally loss of rights, poor treatment by the community, loss of certain career and professional opportunities as a result.)
5) They have tried all sorts of solutions (especially the genuinely suicidal) and even carefully, rationally thought through their decision before arriving at the decision to CTB. It is usually not an impulsive decision, but a carefully planned, thoroughly prepared decision. More often than not, it is not only because of any singular reason or cause. It is a multitude of reasons and causes that culminates into one final, permanent decision.

If people want suicidal people to open up and be honest, then there are a few things they must do:

1) Stop shaming, guilt tripping suicidal people into life and consider the suicidal's point of view and suffering.
2) Have an open (honest) discussion without pushing and projecting one's biases (pro-life, life is good) onto the suicidal person.
3) Stop trying to push toxic positivity and other uplifting words which are generally unhelpful towards the suicidal.
4) Abolish forced intervention, involuntary commitment (only reserved for those who are a "danger to others, NOT danger to oneself").
5) Accept that the suicidal has already tried and exhausted all the options that he/she has and that rational suicides are a thing.

So until then, unless society and government makes these changes, then the (genuinely) suicidal will NEVER open up, reach out, or seek help mainly due to all the possible consequences that follow if/should the suicidal open up and be honest about his/her situation. I like to think about Marilyn Manson's response to the news media when asked about what he would say to the Columbine Shooters and Manson responded with "I wouldn't say a single word to them. I'd listen to what they have to say, and that's what no one did."

Note: I don't condone the mass shootings in Columbine or any acts of violence or mass killings. I am merely citing an example loosely.

Loosely applying his quote, it illustrates a parallel that suicidal people are pushed to the edge and because no one really "listened" to them without judgment or threat of horrible consequences, the suicidal people eventually ended up going through with suicide. Had society and people actually listened to them, abolished cruel and unusual treatment and make help voluntary (instead of forcing it down on people), then there would be less suicides. For example, on this platform, people are allowed to talk about suicide, euthanasia, the right to die, and including suicide methods (for those wishing to CTB) without censorship and/or other consequences (concerns and forced intervention), it has helped people who are already in a very bad place, very vulnerable a place to be heard, be (genuinely) understood, and sometimes, that might just be enough for people to recover and/or feel at peace.

I know many of us already know this, so I may be preaching to the choice, but I think this would be an interesting discussion. These are just my findings and opinion as well as explanation on WHY (genuinely) suicidal people do NOT reach out for help. If anyone has anything else that isn't covered or wants to give their input on this, feel free to.

 

[enlightened_suicide]

If only more people could actually take a step back and see it this way..
I have struggled with this bc even when I want to open up and try and talk, I get cut off with how the other person feels toward the situation, and then get told the same cookie cutter bullshit over and over again and if not that, then yes made to feel guilty and worthless.. for feeling guilty and worthless.
If the people who are overly righteous and think they're helping actually realized the counter effect it had, I feel as if they would want to ctb just for knowing they helped cause what made them sick inside.

 

[OneBigBlur]

The type of help that they offer isn't even helpful is the problem. I'd find more comfort in being able to freely talk about my wish to die than to have naive optimism thrown in my face.

I need genuine human connection, not force and betrayal.

 

[BlueWidow]

An excellent post and I feel the same as all above.
Until society changes its attitude towards suicidal people and the idea of suicide in general, nothing will change.
They need to stop trying to simplify a complex problem and doing a one-size-fits-all solution when each suicidal person is unique and has their own unique reasons for why they want to end their lives.
Suicide is treated as a temporary crisis that will pass if the person is forcibly restrained long enough. Then they will go back to being a normal person at some point and their suicide ideations will pass. This doesn't happen for a lot of people. All they learn is not to express their suicidal intentions to the outside world.
You're continually told to "reach out", but every time you do, you get everything except the compassion and understanding that you need.

 

[charlottewilts]

yet another excellent post by you, thrw_a_way1221221. while i personally would not benefit from a society that was more accepting and less condemning when it came to delicate topics such as suicide, i think many would. it is truly a shame people have to live in constant fear that they could be hospitalised against their will and treated inhumanely. i remember tiptoeing around the topic myself when i was still seeing a shrink. Szasz had some great ideas; i wish they were implemented.

thank you for speaking up regarding these issues. i wish the suicidal weren't seen as "loonies" who needed to be helped and rescued but rather as normal people making rational decisions based on their circumstances. i hope we can see some changes made in the future, especially seeing how suicide rates are skyrocketing.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

Do you think destigmatizing suicide would result in more or less suicides?

Do you think you could stick to these principals yourself if it was a loved one of yours or a friend who was actively suicidal or would you call the authorities to save their life?

 

[CynicalHopelessness]

If people want suicidal people to open up and be honest

Well... I think they don't. The whole bullet list (that sounds like you just ripped it off my life btw, good job!) is showing precisely what they want from us - to not be a bother to them. To shut up and continue existing.

To understand a suicidal person one needs to empathize with them. To empathize with them is to feel suicidal yourself, even in lighter form. That is risky, especially as the "normal people" don't exactly have a stellar life, so they are at risk of considering suicide themselves. That is going to be negatively reinforced by natural selection, both genetic and cultural. For example, early Christians considered CTB a valid option, even desirable sometimes. Suicide being an unforgivable sin was a later addition/reinterpretation to force people to keep going, around a hundred of years after it first became a state religion.

Do you think destigmatizing suicide would result in more or less suicides?

Not the op, but I believe if the society was capable of de-stigmatizing it, it'd result in a suicide spike and then rapid decline to levels lower than before, and keeping at this level. Because presumably the problems that suicidal people face would be discussed more widely, raising a chance of solutions being found. I.e. I'd expect somewhat less suicides due to mental health problems - right now even having those is a stigma in its own.

That would require society that cares about people though, and it doesn't sound like one I live in. But hey, I'd bet we generated quite a bit of value for shareholders!

 

[Wayfaerer]

I think that it is insane that they bill you for forcing hospitalization on you. Not just that but the bill is an extortionate amount. That is just ludicrous!

 

[BlueWidow]

I think that it is insane that they bill you for forcing hospitalization on you. Not just that but the bill is an extortionate amount. That is just ludicrous!

Yup, that happened to me. I got a $6,000 bill for being hospitalized for less than two days. I kept telling them I didn't need to be in there, but they wouldn't listen to me. I wasn't even suicidal at the time. I was just having low thyroid issues.

 

[Nemeshisu]

Another excellent post written by you. I agree with everything that you said. I don't what else I could say.

I especially hate all the shaming and guilt tripping done by society. I agree that society just wants to impose their views on suicidal people instead of actually listening to them. And that they can't accept the fact that often suicide can be pretty rational act, and that some people may not want the kind of "help" they offer.

 

[Misanthrope]

What do you mean by genuinely suicidal?

 

[Squiddy]

Yup, that happened to me. I got a $6,000 bill for being hospitalized for less than two days. I kept telling them I didn't need to be in there, but they wouldn't listen to me. I wasn't even suicidal at the time. I was just having low thyroid issues.

I owe about $8k to the hospital for being in and out. It's ridiculous the price of it all

 

[Carina]

Yup, that happened to me. I got a $6,000 bill for being hospitalized for less than two days. I kept telling them I didn't need to be in there, but they wouldn't listen to me. I wasn't even suicidal at the time. I was just having low thyroid issues.

A friend who was caught after an attempt was taken to the hospital, and she was like "let me go, I can't afford to be here" I think she even said she was just going to do it again if they billed her; and they lied and said not to worry because she wouldn't be billed. They pumped her stomach, put her in a psych ward, sent her home--and she basically had a bill waiting for her. It was like 20 years ago, no clue of the cost, but it was like why would you treat someone against their will, who was suicidal, and send bills, knowing they couldn't afford it, knowing they're suicidal---and even think that's a good idea? And lie about it not costing them?

They just reinforced the notion that when she was again to not tell anyone, just do it. For that matter, that's what it taught me. Don't tell, don't get caught.

 

[Despondent]

One time when I was younger, the vp found out that I had suicidal ideation. I was sent to her office. I was embarassed because it did feel degrading. Not to mention, they were talking to me as if I were a small child. Like tf? I'm fourteen lmao Back off no offence

 

[TowerUpright]

One time when I was younger, the vp found out that I had suicidal ideation. I was sent to her office. I was embarassed because it did feel degrading. Not to mention, they were talking to me as if I were a small child. Like tf? I'm fourteen lmao Back off no offence

In the US, that is illegal. If for some reason that ever happens again, formally request human resources be present ( and another, neutral party) and document, document, and document. Send copies to your supervisor and HR. Fear of a lawsuit with put a stop to that. Any suspicion they might be responsible for a suicide, or breaking HIPAA violations will cause those assholes to straighten up.

Pardon my language. But they're assholes. Big ones.

Disclaimer: IANAL. But I know enough Employment lawyers who would back me up on that.

 

[BabyYoda]

I have a question though. I told one of my friends that I was feeling severely suicidal and he convinced me to go see the guidance counselor. At the moment I didn't feel like going so I said that I was going to be busy, but he insisted, because he said that "I can't just keep feeling sad". So I had to say yes just to shut him up and he dragged me to the GC office. Does this count as forced intervention, if the services of the GC office are free of charge?

Same friend is very pro life and guilt tripping. He called me selfish. He called me pathetic. He called me stupid. Actually, at the very start, he was 100% willing to help. But then he was like "fuck it, you're not getting better and all I've been was patient with you". He even threatened to leave me. I stopped getting help from him after that. Honestly I don't know if it's my fault that I believe such "irrational" beliefs such as that I'll never find love. Yes, I know that I can't be a victim forever but this is one of the reasons why I became more hesitant to ask for help. Because when people get tired of me, they'll walk away.

 

[OneBigBlur]

I have a question though. I told one of my friends that I was feeling severely suicidal and he convinced me to go see the guidance counselor. At the moment I didn't feel like going so I said that I was going to be busy, but he insisted, because he said that "I can't just keep feeling sad". So I had to say yes just to shut him up and he dragged me to the GC office. Does this count as forced intervention, if the services of the GC office are free of charge?

Same friend is very pro life and guilt tripping. He called me selfish. He called me pathetic. He called me stupid. Actually, at the very start, he was 100% willing to help. But then he was like "fuck it, you're not getting better and all I've been was patient with you". He even threatened to leave me. I stopped getting help from him after that. Honestly I don't know if it's my fault that I believe such "irrational" beliefs such as that I'll never find love. Yes, I know that I can't be a victim forever but this is one of the reasons why I became more hesitant to ask for help. Because when people get tired of me, they'll walk away.

Sounds like coercion and your "friend" sounds like a narrow minded selfish dick. No decent person would call anyone pathetic for being suicidal. It's an exercise in futility to try and make anyone understand that has never been seriously suicidal or gone through adversity.

 

[BabyYoda]

Sounds like coercion and your "friend" sounds like a narrow minded selfish dick. No decent person would call anyone pathetic for being suicidal. It's an exercise in futility to try and make anyone understand that has never been seriously suicidal or gone through adversity.

Oops correction, I was called pathetic for having the belief where I say that I'll never find love, not my suicidal thoughts

 

[OneBigBlur]

Oops correction, I was called pathetic for having said belief, the one where I say that I'll never find love

My point still stands, you don't use threats and aggression to "help" someone.

 

[freefrommybody]

Well said. One of the reasons I don't reach out for help is because I've already made my decision, but these are most of the reasons why talking openly about being suicidal was never something I really considered as an option.

I also think that it would've increased my social strain, because many people would start tip-toeing around me. I might be suicidal/mentally ill in their minds first, and anything else second. I imagine that my presence would instantly drag down the mood of a room, and I'd essentially be even more of a pariah and a burden. Not sure if all that is 100% true, but it's how I see things turning out for me.

 

[Quarky00]

Frame it, nail it, hang it on the wall .

Perfectly written. 100%.

 

[FullCircle]

It's like there's no middle ground. I'm either supposed to get it together or basically commit myself. Which for me would be costly even with insurance. The financial burden would induce more anxiety and hopelessness. The system makes no sense.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

The reason for all of this is the media and the fact that people are brainwashed about suicide every day. I made a post about this on one of my threads which was an excerpt from Every Cradle is a Grave. Check out suicide.org. It mentions that suicide is never the answer. There's media guidelines for suicide which people end up getting brainwashed into.
If you want people to really open up, make them read Every Cradle is a Grave by Sarah Perry. The thing is people in general aren't really open minded. They have to through suffering themselves to understand another person's point of view, realistically speaking unfortunately.

 

[WhyIsLife56]

I agree. People can't see suicide as a logical option to escape your problems because they are brainwashed. We are living in the matrix.

I hate pain, aging , grief , being sick, working, worry ,problems , having to suck up to people etc. Suicide will be an escape from all that hell and solve all my problems. so why is it so bad for me ? Its not it's a logical solution for me.
I'm tired of it all . Suicide is the solution for me.

I believe suicide is the solution to everything

 

[TAW122]

Wow, my thread actually took off and lots of responses here. I will address the responses as much as I can.

If the people who are overly righteous and think they're helping actually realized the counter effect it had, I feel as if they would want to ctb just for knowing they helped cause what made them sick inside.

That's a good quote and I think most people lack the self-introspection and awareness to question what they are taught.

The type of help that they offer isn't even helpful is the problem. I'd find more comfort in being able to freely talk about my wish to die than to have naive optimism thrown in my face.
I need genuine human connection, not force and betrayal.

Exactly, and that's what the non-suicidal just don't understand.

Suicide is treated as a temporary crisis that will pass if the person is forcibly restrained long enough. Then they will go back to being a normal person at some point and their suicide ideations will pass. This doesn't happen for a lot of people. All they learn is not to express their suicidal intentions to the outside world.
You're continually told to "reach out", but every time you do, you get everything except the compassion and understanding that you need.

Yeah, and the way government and society treats the suicidal needs a major overhaul. However, I don't forsee that happening until a critical mass of the populace realize that their current approach isn't helping, the suicide rates are rising, and in fact, only going to continue to drive "genuinely" suicidal people deeper and deeper underground.

thank you for speaking up regarding these issues. i wish the suicidal weren't seen as "loonies" who needed to be helped and rescued but rather as normal people making rational decisions based on their circumstances. i hope we can see some changes made in the future, especially seeing how suicide rates are skyrocketing.

You are very welcome. Also, yes suicidal people are rational people who are making decisions based on their life circumstances and/or other personal circumstances. They just had enough of life and it's problems and decided that they no longer wish to play this game of 'life'. Sadly, most non-suicidal people don't see it that way and wish to impose their will and force suicidal to play the game of life.

Another excellent post written by you. I agree with everything that you said. I don't what else I could say.

I especially hate all the shaming and guilt tripping done by society. I agree that society just wants to impose their views on suicidal people instead of actually listening to them. And that they can't accept the fact that often suicide can be pretty rational act, and that some people may not want the kind of "help" they offer.

The last sentence is spot on. Too many assume that everyone wants help or is a 'cry' for help, but it is not. The person just wants to end their suffering and suicide is one such way to do so.

What do you mean by genuinely suicidal?

By genuinely suicidal, I am referring to people who are serious about suicide, like actually making real plans, having real intent, and of course, an actual method to carry it out. This is different from people who just use suicide to get attention or sympathy.

I have a question though. I told one of my friends that I was feeling severely suicidal and he convinced me to go see the guidance counselor. At the moment I didn't feel like going so I said that I was going to be busy, but he insisted, because he said that "I can't just keep feeling sad". So I had to say yes just to shut him up and he dragged me to the GC office. Does this count as forced intervention, if the services of the GC office are free of charge?

Same friend is very pro life and guilt tripping. He called me selfish. He called me pathetic. He called me stupid. Actually, at the very start, he was 100% willing to help. But then he was like "fuck it, you're not getting better and all I've been was patient with you". He even threatened to leave me. I stopped getting help from him after that. Honestly I don't know if it's my fault that I believe such "irrational" beliefs such as that I'll never find love. Yes, I know that I can't be a victim forever but this is one of the reasons why I became more hesitant to ask for help. Because when people get tired of me, they'll walk away.

That sums up pretty much the majority of people in the world. They don't really want to help and want to just stroke their egos and protect their 'feelings' from getting hurt.

I believe suicide is the solution to everything

In a sense, yes, to all problems, it would put a permanent end to ALL suffering, even if it means no 'potential' pleasure in the future. A lot of people in the world aren't comfortable with that notion, but I think most rationally suicidal people understand the lack of possible pleasure in the future and they are ok with that (myself included).

 

[WhyIsLife56]

In a sense, yes, to all problems, it would put a permanent end to ALL suffering, even if it means no 'potential' pleasure in the future. A lot of people in the world aren't comfortable with that notion, but I think most rationally suicidal people understand the lack of possible pleasure in the future and they are ok with that (myself included).

Pleasure is temporary. It's not meant to last long. No matter how much pleasure someone could potentially have, it would still end with suffering. Nothing lasts forever.
So suicide would be the permanent solution to everything. You wouldn't have to feel pleasure or suffering ever. Pleasure comes with suffering. (You wouldn't need to feel pleasure if you weren't suffering.)
Life isn't worth the amount of suffering.
Suicide is indeed a rational decision. :)

 

[TAW122]

It's like there's no middle ground. I'm either supposed to get it together or basically commit myself. Which for me would be costly even with insurance. The financial burden would induce more anxiety and hopelessness. The system makes no sense.

Yeah this system needs a major overhaul for sure. I don't have insurance currently and if I get hit by a massive medical bill, it'll only further push me to CTB.

Well said. One of the reasons I don't reach out for help is because I've already made my decision, but these are most of the reasons why talking openly about being suicidal was never something I really considered as an option.

I also think that it would've increased my social strain, because many people would start tip-toeing around me. I might be suicidal/mentally ill in their minds first, and anything else second. I imagine that my presence would instantly drag down the mood of a room, and I'd essentially be even more of a pariah and a burden. Not sure if all that is 100% true, but it's how I see things turning out for me.

Yeah, it's annoying when people are trying to talk down thoses who have already made up their mind and even goes as far as to force intervention against those people.

One time when I was younger, the vp found out that I had suicidal ideation. I was sent to her office. I was embarassed because it did feel degrading. Not to mention, they were talking to me as if I were a small child. Like tf? I'm fourteen lmao Back off no offence

That's really fucked up and I hope you were able to get some justice later in life or something.

I owe about $8k to the hospital for being in and out. It's ridiculous the price of it all

That would set me off towards actively CTB'ing and making sure I did as soon as (conveniently) possible. $8K is almost an entire semester of graduate studies, just to put that into perspective.

 

[easywayout]

This thread makes me glad i don't live in the US. When i was hospitalized it was free.

 

[HereToday]

I completely agree with this post, but sadly the changes you mention won't happen as we have no control over our own lives or bodies.
I also think the whole 'people who are serious about suicide don't seek help/tell anyone' mentality is flat out wrong. It's one that's so common outside this forum and it's such a ridiculous trail of thought. I can't even begin to describe how ridiculous it is

 

[TAW122]

This thread makes me glad i don't live in the US. When i was hospitalized it was free.

Which country are you from? Also, while that may be better than being billed, the experience of losing one's freedom even for a short time can still negatively impact said person.

I completely agree with this post, but sadly the changes you mention won't happen as we have no control over our own lives or bodies.
I also think the whole 'people who are serious about suicide don't seek help/tell anyone' mentality is flat out wrong. It's one that's so common outside this forum and it's such a ridiculous trail of thought. I can't even begin to describe how ridiculous it is

I don't think that every serious suicidal doesn't seek help/tell anyone, but a large amount of them don't especially for fear of intervention. While yes, there are people who have dropped hints or told some people who are close to them their plans, they soon regret the aftermath of intervention or having their plans or attempts foiled. Also could you explain "why" it is ridiculous?